Scotrail 334 becomes uncoupled near Uphall (26/11)

[theironroad]

I imagine the train probably wasn't attached properly in the first place. If it was, the emergency brakes would have been applied.
It would be unusual for several things otherwise to go wrong - a coupler failed; automatic brake failed (although it appears to have worked in the rear unit)

I don't think it is appropriate to be throwing allegations around when the facts are not known. It only happened a couple of hours ago, and unless there is someone from Scotrail control or fleet posting to the thread from work we're getting into the realms of speculation about the root cause.

 

[Crossover]

...and why would they be travelling at an "inappropriate speed" when proceeding at a suitable speed and being prepared to stop short of any obstruction is rules 101?

It shouldn't, but the incident at Plymouth a year or so back showed it can happen (for a calling-on in that case)

 

[theironroad]

Quote from a passenger on Scotrail facebook page.
"I don’t think the driver even realised until we got to livi north even though there was a weird power outage at uphall when the whole train went black"

I don't know 334s so can't really comment. However, as drivers cabs are usually dark at night a loss of lighting inthe passenger area of thetrain wouldn't be of notice.if the train pulled away as normal to the driver, then they might not have noticed.
Obviously the driver would have stopped immediately had they been aware.

Something has clearly gone wrong but I guess it will some time before we know facts. I'd imagine the raib might want to conduct a full investigation but we'll have to wait to see what they say.

 

[theironroad]

It shouldn't, but the incident at Plymouth a year or so back showed it can happen (for a calling-on in that case)

Fair comment, but that was a routine attachment under permissive working not examination of the line due to the section ahead failing to clear.

 

[Surreytraveller]

...and why would they be travelling at an "inappropriate speed" when proceeding at a suitable speed and being prepared to stop short of any obstruction is rules 101?

They may not have been strictly adhering to the rules. A bit like whoever was responsible for ensuring the train was attached in the first place.

 

[Chuggington21]

There wouldn't have been any risk to any on coming traffic so please stop that now.
It's not uncommon for the power to go out simple vcb trip happens all the time, simple reset and if power comes your good to go. Driver has no reason to know train has spilt if brakes haven't applied

 

[Chuggington21]

They may not have been strictly adhering to the rules. A bit like whoever was responsible for ensuring the train was attached in the first place.

Do you know what the rules are?
And how do you know the train wasn't attached properly, going by the couple procedure of a 334

 

[Surreytraveller]

If a unit has track circuit actuators and, like the rear unit of this train, loses all power will it still actuate the track circuits?

Similarly in an AB area how assiduously do signallers look for red lights? I know the answer should be yes, but it is the sort of vigilance that humans are not always good at - routine vigilance against the very rare event.

Exactly this. A collision is very rarely the result of one error. Error 1 - train isn't attached properly, train divides. Error 2 - signaller doesn't realise train has divided. Error 3 - next train examining the line travels too fast.
It happens.

 

[Ken H]

There wouldn't have been any risk to any on coming traffic so please stop that now.
It's not uncommon for the power to go out simple vcb trip happens all the time, simple reset and if power comes your good to go. Driver has no reason to know train has spilt if brakes haven't applied

isnt there an indicator in the cab to say how many vehicles in the train?

 

[theironroad]

Do you know what the rules are

I think they work for the super fast branch of the RAIB because they've already found the root cause and unlike the RAIB have also found who to blame all within a few hours. Must say I'm quite impressed.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I don't think it is appropriate to be throwing allegations around when the facts are not known. It only happened a couple of hours ago, and unless there is someone from Scotrail control or fleet posting to the thread from work we're getting into the realms of speculation about the root cause.

This is a discussion forum. We are having a discussion of possible causes. This isn't an official investigation!

 

[theironroad]

isnt there an indicator in the cab to say how many vehicles in the train?

More modern stock does on some sort of 'TMS' (train management system) though it's not always very ergonomically readable. Swr desiro have it high-up on the right hand wall . I don't think 334 would have , but I can't say for sure.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Fair comment, but that was a routine attachment under permissive working not examination of the line due to the section ahead failing to clear.

Well, if a driver can proceed at an inappropriate speed when they know a section to be occupied, I'm sure they can when they don't know!

 

[Chuggington21]

More modern stock does on some sort of 'TMS' (train management system) though it's not always very ergonomically readable. Swr desiro have it high-up on the right hand wall . I don't think 334 would have , but I can't say for sure.

It's too the right of a driver. If there's interlock and no known faults no reason for him to check it

 

[theironroad]

Well, if a driver can proceed at an inappropriate speed when they know a section to be occupied, I'm sure they can when they don't know!

Whatever you say, you seem to have all the answers you want to see.

 

[Chuggington21]

Well, if a driver can proceed at an inappropriate speed when they know a section to be occupied, I'm sure they can when they don't know!

Is this where driver crash into another unit? If so there's more to it than how your suggesting it

 

[theironroad]

It's too the right of a driver. If there's interlock and no known faults no reason for him to check it

No, not leaving a station. Often drivers will look at it on approach to s station stop to confirm the formation length so as to stop at the correct stop mark on the platform,but people also use more basic methods for that as well.

 

[Chuggington21]

No, not leaving a station. Often drivers will look at it on approach to s station stop to confirm the formation length so as to stop at the correct stop mark on the platform,but people also use more basic methods for that as well.

I know bud. I was telling not asking lol

 

[Surreytraveller]

No, not leaving a station. Often drivers will look at it on approach to s station stop to confirm the formation length so as to stop at the correct stop mark on the platform,but people also use more basic methods for that as well.

The driver should know how many they've got on without checking. It would be dangerous to assume the computer is correct

 

[Hooligan]

I'm sure the cctv on Uphall platform would also have confirmed there was half a train sitting there as well as numerous social media comments !

 

[Surreytraveller]

Do you know what the rules are?
And how do you know the train wasn't attached properly, going by the couple procedure of a 334

No one would know until the relevant downloads have been done

 

[Surreytraveller]

I'm sure the cctv on Uphall platform would also have confirmed there was half a train sitting there as well as numerous social media comments !

Operational staff wouldn't be watching cctv. At least until they've already been told half a train is standing there

 

[Chuggington21]

The driver should know how many they've got on without checking. It would be dangerous to assume the computer is correct

How would he check

 

[Chuggington21]

I'm sure the cctv on Uphall platform would also have confirmed there was half a train sitting there as well as numerous social media comments !

Drivers don't have station cctv they have door cameras whicj turn off as soon as power is requested

 

[Surreytraveller]

How would he check

He (or she) would (or should) check when they take the train over.

 

[MrBurnz]

Drivers don't have station cctv they have door cameras whicj turn off as soon as power is requested

I think the poster was referring to the actual station cctv itself, not the train cctv.

 

[Chuggington21]

He (or she) would (or should) check when they take the train over.

And they did it was 6, they would have also checked before leaving uphall that all door where clear in all 6 coaches. So the driver has taken power a departed a 6car as far as they are concerned

 

[Chuggington21]

I think the poster was referring to the actual station cctv itself, not the train cctv.

Ah sorry

 

[Llanigraham]

If a unit has track circuit actuators and, like the rear unit of this train, loses all power will it still actuate the track circuits?

Similarly in an AB area how assiduously do signallers look for red lights? I know the answer should be yes, but it is the sort of vigilance that humans are not always good at - routine vigilance against the very rare event.

VERY!!!!
It is something drummed into you from just about day one of your training.
You'd be banging out 9 and 4-5 almost immediately you noticed.

 

[MrBurnz]

Ah sorry

No need to apologise. It's all good.