EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[EM2]

so that means coming from any other EU country to Ireland apart from the UK you have to show your passport? so if we were to have a customs union with limitations on free movement of people {ie control our own borders} why do we need a "backstop" The whole point of wanting to control our borders isn't to try and stop people from coming to visit... it's to control who settles in the UK considering we are such a crowded island with limited resources.

The backstop relates to frictionless trade.

 

[radamfi]

so that means coming from any other EU country to Ireland apart from the UK you have to show your passport? so if we were to have a customs union with limitations on free movement of people {ie control our own borders} why do we need a "backstop" The whole point of wanting to control our borders isn't to try and stop people from coming to visit... it's to control who settles in the UK considering we are such a crowded island with limited resources.

Don't you live in Wales? The population density of Wales is 148 per square km. 161 countries have a higher population density than that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density

Scotland is of course even lower. Many Scottish nationalists actively seek immigration to boost its population.

 

[dosxuk]

and that was what I was trying to allude to...

So you admit you're just trolling for reactions. Answers a lot of questions...

 

[nidave]

and that was what I was trying to allude to... with all due respect to @nidave I really don't remember anyone in the leave campaign mentioning these facts... and that the NI border would be hugely problematic.... when people are thinking of immigration they automatically think of Dover/Folkestone and major airports... simply because that is where media focusses on when talking about the subject. Perhaps if the Remain campaign had tried Project Fact rather than Project Fear then perhaps there might have been a different outcome..

Dont talk rubbish - Its been said many times that its not jsut about people. Its good and other services. i.e. the bulk of electrictiy comes from ROI to NI - you seem obsessed with people - you might want to have a bit of self reflection on that.
As a reminder lots of countries have said they wont do trade deals with the UK without freedom of movement included in the deal. Your obsession with immigration is going to mean more (and larger areas like India, Pakistan) having more freedom to come and go as they please if they get thier way.

There is more to the GFA the people moving betwenn the North and South - There is more cooperation between the two areas than there ever was before the GFA and this is a clusterf*ck to sort - goods and services are frictionless (including electrictity and gas) between the North and South - this is all in jepordy. Your focus on prople is sad to say the least.

You talk in rubbish sundbites without the slightest understanding of the reality of the situation. You are to partly to blame for the mess N. Ireland is in and the potental annulment of my vote for the GFA and the risk of a return to increased violence. Its not project fear when you fear for your life.

 

[najaB]

There's also the fact that getting from NI to mainland GB requires taking either a ferry or a flight, and it probably wouldn't be too hard in principle to enforce ID checks on all passengers that would pick up on right to be in the UK (although that might be politically difficult).

That just moves the border to the Irish Sea, on option that has been completely ruled out by the DUP.

 

[nidave]

HMRC: 30 months to prep Northern Ireland backstop systems, 24 for customs
Nope, not from now – from whenever politicos make up their minds
With just two years to go until the end of the Brexit transition period, HMRC has said its preparations for a Northern Ireland backstop could take up to 30 months – once Whitehall has said how the mechanism will work.

Effectively, this means there is no definitive date on when it could be operational.


https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/23/brexit_ireland_backstop_hmrc/

 

[najaB]

With just two years to go until the end of the Brexit transition period...

And a mere four years on from invoking Article 50. I'm starting to suspect that the Government isn't as competent as they want us to believe they are...

 

[Howardh]

To be fair, it is still possible to have some control of people entering even with the open border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic. You might not be able to stop people entering, but you can make it virtually impossible for them to legally work, or to legally find anywhere to live,

But it won't stop peole getting in who are likely to blow our heads off - far more worrying than someone wanting to work in a car-wash or hotel kitchen. It does underline the "lie" that we would have "control of borders/security" and makes life worse than in the EU as at least we can currently share information.
I admit though that the chances of an attack are way more likely to be home-grown and there's nothing borders could stop anyway - or from another part of the world from someone with a proper visa and not on any watch list.
Which makes the removal of freedom of movement even more puzzling.

 

[northwichcat]

The UK is neither particularly crowded (we're #53 out of 253 on Wikipedia's list of contries/territories by population density)

Caution needs to be applies to those figures. Places like Australia and Canada are statistically some of the least crowded countries, yet both have large parts of the country where it would not be sensible for a new town or city to be built (for different reasons) and both have large cities where land is at a premium.

 

[najaB]

Caution needs to be applies to those figures.

Indeed. But that's a matter of planning policy, much as is the overheated London/SE conurbation in the UK.

 

[bramling]

But it won't stop peole getting in who are likely to blow our heads off - far more worrying than someone wanting to work in a car-wash or hotel kitchen. It does underline the "lie" that we would have "control of borders/security" and makes life worse than in the EU as at least we can currently share information.
I admit though that the chances of an attack are way more likely to be home-grown and there's nothing borders could stop anyway - or from another part of the world from someone with a proper visa and not on any watch list.
Which makes the removal of freedom of movement even more puzzling.

I don’t think terrorism is a major motivator behind wanting to end freedom of movement. For most people it’s about housing, jobs, public services, and population size increasing too fast. Having said that, Merkel’s open door policy didn’t exactly help.

 

[najaB]

Having said that, Merkel’s open door policy didn’t exactly help.

It will help the countries with declining/aging populations quite a bit in the long run. A million or so younger workers who will be willing to accept lower wages than the extant population? Exactly what big business needed.

 

[SteveP29]

The North East were given a vote on something that was simply extra levels of burocracy rather than real devolution with the same sort of powers that Scotland (or even London) had, and they rejected it. This rejection has been taken ever after by the opponents of devolution as a rejection of devolution itself. (Rather like the way the opponenets of electoral reform argue that we've all had the chance to vote on electoral reform and we rejected it, whereas the option to vote for a genuine proportional system has never been put before us.)

County Durham were given a doublw whammy of something they didn't want.
The ballot paper said something along the lines of 'Do you want a regional assembly? Yes/ No'
'Vote Yes and you have one, vote No and we're going to scrap the district councils and have one unitary authority'

Which has proved an unmitigated disaster, Durham City gets all the excess money spent on it while the other towns and villages get lip service and minimum services and investment. Durham County Council has nearly £1Bn in reserve and gives Millions every year to the white elephant that is the Emirates Cricket Ground because Durham County Cricket Club is a loss making enterprise

 

[bramling]

It will help the countries with declining/aging populations quite a bit in the long run. A million or so younger workers who will be willing to accept lower wages than the extant population? Exactly what big business needed.

Even if we work on the basis that it might be a good thing for other European countries, the problem is that because of the EU it effectively becomes our policy thanks to, in this case, freedom of movement. There's no way Britain's gasping-for-breath infrastructure can accommodate such an influx.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

It will help the countries with declining/aging populations quite a bit in the long run. A million or so younger workers who will be willing to accept lower wages than the extant population? Exactly what big business needed.

and exactly the opposite of what those already on poverty wages need... here's the problem with the freedom of movement as it is set up... A low wage employer finds that they can't get the staff they need when paying minimum wage... the company can either a} raise the wage rate to a point where employees will consider it a fair wage.. it DOES happen.. it happened in the bus industry...after yrs of stagnating wages at the turn of the century wages started to climb again {fairly rapidly} to stem a staffing crisis... then the eastern bloc countries started joining the EU... all of a sudden there was an influx of Polish drivers in particular... and immediately wages started to stagnate again. Let me make it clear... I'm not blaming the Poles... but given the choice between raising wages or drawing cheap labour from abroad business will always choose the option that costs the least.

 

[AM9]

and exactly the opposite of what those already on poverty wages need... here's the problem with the freedom of movement as it is set up... A low wage employer finds that they can't get the staff they need when paying minimum wage... the company can either a} raise the wage rate to a point where employees will consider it a fair wage.. it DOES happen.. it happened in the bus industry...after yrs of stagnating wages at the turn of the century wages started to climb again {fairly rapidly} to stem a staffing crisis... then the eastern bloc countries started joining the EU... all of a sudden there was an influx of Polish drivers in particular... and immediately wages started to stagnate again. Let me make it clear... I'm not blaming the Poles... but given the choice between raising wages or drawing cheap labour from abroad business will always choose the option that costs the least.

OK so supposing your assessment is correct, where does the money to pay the higher wages come from?

 

[nidave]

and exactly the opposite of what those already on poverty wages need... here's the problem with the freedom of movement as it is set up... A low wage employer finds that they can't get the staff they need when paying minimum wage... the company can either a} raise the wage rate to a point where employees will consider it a fair wage.. it DOES happen.. it happened in the bus industry...after yrs of stagnating wages at the turn of the century wages started to climb again {fairly rapidly} to stem a staffing crisis... then the eastern bloc countries started joining the EU... all of a sudden there was an influx of Polish drivers in particular... and immediately wages started to stagnate again. Let me make it clear... I'm not blaming the Poles... but given the choice between raising wages or drawing cheap labour from abroad business will always choose the option that costs the least.

You are obsessed and as always ignoring facts.
What did we do with the 51% of non EU people who come to the UK - Why did we not deal with this first without having to go through the pain and have something thats going to cost each and every UK Person potenatlally £2000-3000. You are are delusional if you think that leaving the EU is going to end up with everyone getting a pay rise. (the falicy that EU migragation is keping wages low is a falacy anyway yet you keep spouting the same rubbish time and time again)

 

[nidave]

Do you really think leaving the EU is going to increase the Minimum wage and stop seasonal and Zero Hour Countracts?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Dont talk rubbish - Its been said many times that its not jsut about people. Its good and other services. i.e. the bulk of electrictiy comes from ROI to NI - you seem obsessed with people - you might want to have a bit of self reflection on that.
As a reminder lots of countries have said they wont do trade deals with the UK without freedom of movement included in the deal. Your obsession with immigration is going to mean more (and larger areas like India, Pakistan) having more freedom to come and go as they please if they get thier way.

There is more to the GFA the people moving betwenn the North and South - There is more cooperation between the two areas than there ever was before the GFA and this is a clusterf*ck to sort - goods and services are frictionless (including electrictity and gas) between the North and South - this is all in jepordy. Your focus on prople is sad to say the least.

You talk in rubbish sundbites without the slightest understanding of the reality of the situation. You are to partly to blame for the mess N. Ireland is in and the potental annulment of my vote for the GFA and the risk of a return to increased violence. Its not project fear when you fear for your life.

How the hell am I responsible for the mess that NI is in?

As to your assertion that I talk in rubbish soundbites... really? no understanding of reality? really? good grief try and stop resorting to insults.. especially when you can't take them being returned!

There was no mention during the referendum campaign about any particular problems with NI if we were to leave. As I have repeatedly said... a person can only make a decision based on the facts presented to them.... if you feel aggrieved that the NI situation wasn't considered by the wider electorate then there can only be one place that the blame can be placed.. at the doors of the remain camp.... if Cameron/ Osbourne et al hadn't spent the whole campaign trying to scare the electorate into voting remain and instead had just concentrated on facts... such as the problems we would have with NI... then maybe the outcome would've been different!

And pray tell... how does stopping free movement of people cause problems with electricity or gas supply? seriously.. you accuse me of not having a grip on reality....

 

[WelshBluebird]

There was no mention during the referendum campaign about any particular problems with NI if we were to leave.

Then maybe think for yourself?
Are you suggesting that you needed every single consequence of Brexit to be spelled out for you?
With even the smallest bit of independent research you could have found that out that issues with the NI border were likely if we were to leave the EU.

such as the problems we would have with NI

The issues to do with NI were mentioned by the remain campaign before the vote.
It isn't the remain camps fault that you lot just decided it was "Project Fear" and ignored it all.

if you feel aggrieved that the NI situation wasn't considered by the wider electorate then there can only be one place that the blame can be placed.. at the doors of the remain camp

Errr what? The leave camp are the ones wanting to leave and thus cause these issues. So they should take responsibility.

And pray tell... how does stopping free movement of people cause problems with electricity or gas supply? seriously.. you accuse me of not having a grip on reality....

Because this isn't just about the free movement of people. It is also about the free movement of goods and services.

 

[nidave]

You voted brexit - you have contrubuted to the the current mess that is NI therefore this is partly your fault. I blame every sinle brexit voter for the mess and the invaladation of my vote for peace. Your vote and ignorance is putting the whole country at risk of increased violence. Yet you dont give a stuff about anyone but yourself. Your brexit vote is making my GFA vote invalid and pretty much worthless - so much for respecting the will of the people. Its only the will when its what you want isnt it.

And pray tell... how does stopping free movement of people cause problems with electricity or gas supply? seriously.. you accuse me of not having a grip on reality....

You are an total fool- ITS NOT JUST ABOUT PEOPLE. Can you not get that through your head. You refuse point blank to think about anything outher than people. There is more to this than people. If the GFA is invalid and most of the electricity supply comes from ROI how will stoping people coming keep the lights on or people kept warm????


On another note...
How do you explain Places like germany, France and even Italy having higher Wage growth than the UK despite all being in the EU - Other countries with freedom of movement manage to do better than the UK in wage growth - so dont spout rubbush
UK has weakest wage growth in advanced G20 nations, says ILO
Britain ranks bottom in group of nine wealthy countries for pay performance since 2009

UK workers have faced a ‘lost decade’ for wages growth, the Bank of England’e chief economist has said.
Workers in Britain have had the weakest real wage growth among the most advanced nations in the G20, according to UN data showing the scale of the UK’s “lost decade” for pay.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/nov/26/uk-wage-growth-g20-nations-ilo-pay

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

You are obsessed and as always ignoring facts.
What did we do with the 51% of non EU people who come to the UK - Why did we not deal with this first without having to go through the pain and have something thats going to cost each and every UK Person potenatlally £2000-3000. You are are delusional if you think that leaving the EU is going to end up with everyone getting a pay rise. (the falicy that EU migragation is keping wages low is a falacy anyway yet you keep spouting the same rubbish time and time again)

oh dear here we go with the "what about" argument.... even if we had done anything constructive about non EU immigration then all that would've happened is that businesses would've turned to more recruitment from the former eastern bloc members.

As to your assertion, yet again, that I'm talking rubbish... according to whom? to you? well let me tell you something.... the example I gave from the bus industry is from personal experience.... bus driver's wages after deregulation hit poverty levels in the early 90's. in the mid 90's there was a recruitment crisis and companies realised they had to pay more... and wages started rises way ahead of inflation {some companies paid double digit %age increases for more than one year in a row} Wages started to climb in real terms to a living wage {and a bit beyond} and started to reflect the responsibility of the job. Then we had the first wave of eastern bloc countries joining.... there WAS a large influx of Polish drivers {with many large bus companies having dedicated recruitment drives in Poland}... strangely enough after 2 or 3 years the wage rises started to get smaller and smaller.... and in the last 10 yrs bus driver wages have basically stagnated meaning that, in real terms, wages are going down again...

so, considering this is now the 3rd time you have said that I talk rubbish without providing any facts to substantiate your slur then I respectfully ask that you stop trolling me... just because I don't agree with what you think doesn't automatically mean that I am wrong or spouting rubbish!

 

[nidave]

Says the person who is going on about "things are going to be better once we leave the EU as it will stop those nasty people coming here" your obsession with freedom of movement is telling yet you have spouted nothing but lies and falsehoods

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

You voted brexit - you have contrubuted to the the current mess that is NI therefore this is partly your fault. I blame every sinle brexit voter for the mess and the invaladation of my vote for peace. Your vote and ignorance is putting a who country at risk of increased violence. Yet you dont give a stuff about anyone but yourself. Your brexit vote is making my GFA vote invalid and pretty much worthless - so much for respecting the will of the people. Its only the will when its what you want isnt it.

hang on whose fault is the mess in NI? why does the GFA exist in the first place? oh yes that's right... because the people of the 6 counties spent years bombing each other because they couldn't work out the meaning of the word "compromise". Please do not blame me for the mess... I've never set foot on the island of Ireland, never got involved with it's internal politics... and certainly never put a gun to anyone's head!
I like yourself voted for the outcome that I believe will be the best outcome for the UK as a whole. Sorry if my view doesn't agree with yours... but that is democracy for you!

 

[nidave]

I can blame who I like - you are one of those people. just like you are blaming the EU on all your problems. You are a fool who understands nothing about the UK despite the rubbush you spout.

 

[radamfi]

There was no mention during the referendum campaign about any particular problems with NI if we were to leave.

So you don't even remember Tony Blair and John Major walking around Northern Ireland and making a joint speech, pleading with people to vote Remain to avoid derailing the peace process?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

So you don't even remember Tony Blair and John Major walking around Northern Ireland and making a joint speech, pleading with people to vote Remain to avoid derailing the peace process?

for some strange reason I tend to close my ears when Blair opens his mouth...

in any case.. citing Blair as having said anything isn't really helpful... cos anyone listening to him would automatically take the opposing view considering what a tenuous grasp Blair has shown himself to have on facts and truth!

 

[AlterEgo]

hang on whose fault is the mess in NI? why does the GFA exist in the first place? oh yes that's right... because the people of the 6 counties spent years bombing each other because they couldn't work out the meaning of the word "compromise".

Grossly simplistic.

 

[radamfi]

for some strange reason I tend to close my ears when Blair opens his mouth...

in any case.. citing Blair as having said anything isn't really helpful... cos anyone listening to him would automatically take the opposing view considering what a tenuous grasp Blair has shown himself to have on facts and truth!

It was pretty big news at the time, noteworthy as of course Blair and Major were once political rivals.

 

[bramling]

You voted brexit - you have contrubuted to the the current mess that is NI therefore this is partly your fault. I blame every sinle brexit voter for the mess and the invaladation of my vote for peace. Your vote and ignorance is putting the whole country at risk of increased violence. Yet you dont give a stuff about anyone but yourself. Your brexit vote is making my GFA vote invalid and pretty much worthless - so much for respecting the will of the people. Its only the will when its what you want isnt it.

I'm afraid many people elsewhere in the UK reading the above will likely form the view "sooner we get rid of NI the better, and save us a shed load of spending in the process". The whole of the UK does not revolve around the problems of less than 2m people in NI.