EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Howardh]

if TM keeps her job and is forced to call a General Election it would be an interesting one considering a large percentage would want to vote ABCoM {anyone but corbyn or may}

Putting Brexit issues to one side - the May/Corbyn "choice" means we really do need a viable centre-ground social democratic party. The Libdems blew it when they couldn't force the Tories to drop their tuition fees - a pity as the LD's got the government to raise the lowest tax threshold significantly - Brown's biggest mistake IMO was to trash the 10% band and force working tax credits on the lowest paid when they came into tax.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Putting Brexit issues to one side - the May/Corbyn "choice" means we really do need a viable centre-ground social democratic party. The Libdems blew it when they couldn't force the Tories to drop their tuition fees - a pity as the LD's got the government to raise the lowest tax threshold significantly - Brown's biggest mistake IMO was to trash the 10% band and force working tax credits on the lowest paid when they came into tax.

Perhaps wee Jimmy Krankie might like to put up candidates south of the border? At least that way all the remainers would have someone to vote for I will now run for the hills

 

[bnm]

Spain are now agitating for changes to the Gibraltar arrangements in the draft Withdrawal Bill.

It wants to be able to discuss/decide Gibraltar's status post Brexit bilaterally with the UK. That is without any moderating input from the EU.

Outcomes of that are the possibility of Spain closing the border once again. And/or stepping up their action to overturn the Treaty of Utrecht.

 

[Esker-pades]

Spain are now agitating for changes to the Gibraltar arrangements in the draft Withdrawal Bill.

It wants to be able to discuss/decide Gibraltar's status post Brexit bilaterally with the UK. That is without any moderating input from the EU.

Outcomes of that are the possibility of Spain closing the border once again. And/or stepping up their action to overturn the Treaty of Utrecht.

Well. This is all absolutely marvellous.

 

[bramling]

Perhaps wee Jimmy Krankie might like to put up candidates south of the border? At least that way all the remainers would have someone to vote for I will now run for the hills

I’m not sure madam’s party would be overly popular in England. My impression is Sturgeon and her party are generally very poorly regarded. Leanne Wood manages to come across as rather more likeable than Sturgeon.

 

[bramling]

But to be fair Brexit does mean Brexit and she's Strong and Stable about that....which is about all she'd ever tell anyone absoout progress with the deal... now we know why... tbh seeing as though she is a self-confessed remainer it wouldn't surprise me if she's been colluding with the EU to come up with this so called deal... how else can you explain how a deal that means we're tied closer to Europe and more irrivocably be called "Brexit"

I do wonder what May’s actual view is on Brexit. My impression is that her support for remain at the time was lukewarm at best. I can’t help but form the impression she made a political calculation that remain was the best strategic position to support her leadership ambitions, partly expecting that to be the winning side, and partly to avoid being seen to be disloyal to Cameron. She’s a poor leader for sure, but unfortunately that’s what happens when a “none of the above” leader ends up in post.

 

[EM2]

Chuka Umunna on Twitter

Treasury Minister, Robert Jenrick, has just conceded that Govt will publish an economic impact assessment which will compare the terms of our EU membership now with the proposed Withdrawal Agreement (leading to an FTA) and ‘no deal’ (WTO terms) before the meaningful vote

I know that there are plenty of Leavers who don't care what economic damage is wrought on the country, but I'd rather like to see the extent of the carnage that we're being led into.

 

[SteveP29]

I see... so to satisfy the minority she has come up with a deal that ties us even tighter to the EU whilst abdicating all our power... in short this deal is Brexit it name only and it is a betrayal of the majority who voted to leave

It's precisely the minority of rabid right wingers she's tried to satisfy that contributed to the mess of a 'deal' they;ve agreed in principle, so yes, pandering to an even smaller majority has put the country in this position

 

[radamfi]

Putting Brexit issues to one side - the May/Corbyn "choice" means we really do need a viable centre-ground social democratic party. The Libdems blew it when they couldn't force the Tories to drop their tuition fees - a pity as the LD's got the government to raise the lowest tax threshold significantly - Brown's biggest mistake IMO was to trash the 10% band and force working tax credits on the lowest paid when they came into tax.

We need a fair voting system first, otherwise little chance of them getting power barring a fluke like 2010. No more EU elections means no more elections where our vote actually counts.

 

[northwichcat]

But to be fair Brexit does mean Brexit and she's Strong and Stable about that....which is about all she'd ever tell anyone absoout progress with the deal... now we know why... tbh seeing as though she is a self-confessed remainer it wouldn't surprise me if she's been colluding with the EU to come up with this so called deal... how else can you explain how a deal that means we're tied closer to Europe and more irrivocably be called "Brexit"

Let's not forget that prior to the EU referendum a lot of Vote Leave campaigners (including Farage) were saying we could have a Norway style deal to retain some of the benefits we currently have and at the same time 'saving' a significant amount of money. Funny how the Brexiteers were pushing for soft Brexit when they thought they were going to lose and then when they got more votes than remain all of a sudden soft Brexit isn't good enough as it's 'not properly leaving.' Presumably if the result had been 51.8% remain and 48.2% leave they would have still pushed for soft Brexit saying it's a good compromise considering the vote was so close.

 

[northwichcat]

Putting Brexit issues to one side - the May/Corbyn "choice" means we really do need a viable centre-ground social democratic party. The Libdems blew it when they couldn't force the Tories to drop their tuition fees - a pity as the LD's got the government to raise the lowest tax threshold significantly - Brown's biggest mistake IMO was to trash the 10% band and force working tax credits on the lowest paid when they came into tax.

There seems to be a lot of support for Layla Moran to become Lib Dem leader. If that happens and Cable retires from politics I think the Lib Dems will be able to distance themselves from what happened during the coalition - look at how Corbyn can distance himself from what Labour did under Blair and that's despite the fact he was a Labour MP when Blair was leader and many former members of Blair's cabinet are still on the Labour benches, while even some of those who are newer MPs sit closer to Blair on the political spectrum than Corbyn. Although, it's worth noting Layla Moran has a marginal seat so it would be possible for her to become leader, for the Lib Dems to increase their number of seats but for their leader to lose her seat.

Agreed regarding the Working Tax Credits fiasco - it was utterly stupid that the low paid got taxed and then could reclaim a refund/part refund of their tax through Working Tax Credits but not until the following tax year. Imagine if a Tory government had done that.

Regarding tuition fees it's interesting that Corbyn claims he is in favour of scrapping them altogether. New Labour's policy of having fees of around £1000 per year and waving those from low income families was more of a left wing policy then Corbyn's policy which will result in unskilled tax payers helping to fund the degrees of lawyers, doctors and similar for students from wealthy backgrounds, as well as funding degrees for those who grow up on council estates.

 

[northwichcat]

We need a fair voting system first, otherwise little chance of them getting power barring a fluke like 2010. No more EU elections means no more elections where our vote actually counts.

The downside of having an EU style election for our General Elections is you could end up with having a ballot paper saying something like

LABOUR
Corbyn, Abbott, Umunna, Allin-Khan

What if you're against re-electing Abbott but in favour of re-electing Umunna and Allin-Kahn?

 

[northwichcat]

DUP abstaining in finance bill votes this evening. This must ramp up the pressure on May. And make tory MP's think a new leader is better than fighting a GE with May as leader. We will see.

Has the billion pound bribe for Northern Ireland be allocated and spent? If not there's a way we can save a lot of money without the hassle of Brexit.

 

[Howardh]

Agreed regarding the Working Tax Credits fiasco - it was utterly stupid that the low paid got taxed and then could reclaim a refund/part refund of their tax through Working Tax Credits but not until the following tax year. Imagine if a Tory government had done that.
.

Interesting that, I was on WTC's but the amount I got varied in respect of the work I had done the previous week (I was on zero hours before zero hours had even been though of) and if I remember correctly the amount of WTC's I got came automatically - not based on the previous tax year. But that's by memory which could be wrong - not claimed them since I became a carer.

Are they still around, and if so what's the procedure for claiming them?

 

[Howardh]

Spain are now agitating for changes to the Gibraltar arrangements in the draft Withdrawal Bill.

It wants to be able to discuss/decide Gibraltar's status post Brexit bilaterally with the UK. That is without any moderating input from the EU.

Outcomes of that are the possibility of Spain closing the border once again. And/or stepping up their action to overturn the Treaty of Utrecht.

If they "close" the border then they will be hitting their own people who travel into Gibraltar for work, unless they are operating a system where they allow Spaniards only through, both would be crazy.
Might be more appropriate for both sides to discuss shared use of the airport (which would be a big benefit to tourists travelling to that part of Spain) so - if possible - there would be a direct route out of the airport into Spain (and one obviously to Gibraltar) without the need to cross the physical border. I'd demand the Spanish pay for their infrastructure and manning though!!

 

[Mag_seven]

Mrs May has decided when her back is up against the wall to throw more red meat to some of the more neanderthal elements in this country:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46257168

Theresa May has renewed her efforts to sell her draft Brexit withdrawal agreement - arguing it will stop EU migrants "jumping the queue".

Yes label all our colleagues, friends etc who happen to have come here from the EU as "queue jumpers". What was that about "the nasty party" Mrs May?

 

[Howardh]

Mrs May has decided when her back is up against the wall to throw more red meat to some of the more neanderthal elements in this country:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46257168

Yes label all our colleagues, friends etc who happen to have come here from the EU as "queue jumpers". What was that about "the nasty party" Mrs May?

Just wonder if we can identify anyone who has been "queue jumped" by an EU citizen?
Couldn't be aimed at the rabid tabloids by any chance?

 

[birchesgreen]

Not surprising, she showed herself to be an unpleasant racist at the Home Office

 

[Aictos]

It's precisely the minority of rabid right wingers she's tried to satisfy that contributed to the mess of a 'deal' they;ve agreed in principle, so yes, pandering to an even smaller majority has put the country in this position

I disagree, I'm not fan of the PM but she's doing a job no one here could do any better under the circumstances be they Remain or Leave as she's stuck between a rock and a hard place trying to come up with a compromise that pleases everyone.

Part of the issue is you have rabid Leavers and Remainers on both sides who have their own agenda instead of working together for the best of the country which should come first ie you have idiots like Johnson pushing for a hard Brexit and undercutting May at every opportunity while you have idiots like Cable pushing for another vote on Brexit at every opportunity.

Some might not like this but end of the day she is the PM and she has been given a mandate to lead us out of Europe and it's in everyone's best interests be that the EU, the Government, the Shadow Government etc to work together instead of backstabbing everyone to get their own way.

That's why the country is in such a mess at the moment regarding Brexit, it's not just the fault of a minority of rabid right wingers but also the fault of a minority of rabid left wingers too and until you get them to work together for the best of the country it will not get any better.

And getting rid of May or voting in Corbyn btw will not mean Brexit will go away no matter how much some find that thought attractive!

 

[Ken H]

I disagree, I'm not fan of the PM but she's doing a job no one here could do any better under the circumstances be they Remain or Leave as she's stuck between a rock and a hard place trying to come up with a compromise that pleases everyone.

Part of the issue is you have rabid Leavers and Remainers on both sides who have their own agenda instead of working together for the best of the country which should come first ie you have idiots like Johnson pushing for a hard Brexit and undercutting May at every opportunity while you have idiots like Cable pushing for another vote on Brexit at every opportunity.

Some might not like this but end of the day she is the PM and she has been given a mandate to lead us out of Europe and it's in everyone's best interests be that the EU, the Government, the Shadow Government etc to work together instead of backstabbing everyone to get their own way.

That's why the country is in such a mess at the moment regarding Brexit, it's not just the fault of a minority of rabid right wingers but also the fault of a minority of rabid left wingers too and until you get them to work together for the best of the country it will not get any better.

And getting rid of May or voting in Corbyn btw will not mean Brexit will go away no matter how much some find that thought attractive!

I am not sure having the ECJ having jurisdiction over a large part of UK law is 'leaving the EU' as per the referendum. Expect trouble ahead.

 

[Howardh]

I am not sure having the ECJ having jurisdiction over a large part of UK law is 'leaving the EU' as per the referendum. Expect trouble ahead.

In what form?

 

[Senex]

Some might not like this but end of the day she is the PM and she has been given a mandate to lead us out of Europe and it's in everyone's best interests be that the EU, the Government, the Shadow Government etc to work together instead of backstabbing everyone to get their own way.

What mandate? She went to the country last year to get a mandate, and although both main parties stood on manifestos offering Brexit, May failed to get a mandate for the Tory-only Brexit that she has spent her whole time in office attemtping to deliver. She has no right to expect any support from anyone outside the Tory party, let alone any right to expect any support from those of us who voted to remain.

 

[Ken H]

What mandate? She went to the country last year to get a mandate, and although both main parties stood on manifestos offering Brexit, May failed to get a mandate for the Tory-only Brexit that she has spent her whole time in office attemtping to deliver. She has no right to expect any support from anyone outside the Tory party, let alone any right to expect any support from those of us who voted to remain.

This is the problem. Unlike many policies, membership of the EU does not fit easily in the left v right model. Both Tories and labour are split on this issue. Tories in the HoC, labour have a core vote in the North who voted leave.
A middle way fudge will please no-one as opinion has become so black and white.

 

[northwichcat]

Interesting that, I was on WTC's but the amount I got varied in respect of the work I had done the previous week (I was on zero hours before zero hours had even been though of) and if I remember correctly the amount of WTC's I got came automatically - not based on the previous tax year. But that's by memory which could be wrong - not claimed them since I became a carer.

Are they still around, and if so what's the procedure for claiming them?

When I was on WTC it was definitely previous tax year but that was before the PAYE changes came in which allowed real time information, rather than the one allowing you to be the situation where you could get sent a letter with the wrong tax code at the start of the tax year because you had changed employer the previous tax year and they worked out a tax code on the basis you had two jobs. I finished up in the situation where I couldn't get WTC when I was earning a low income because they were only available to those over 25 and then when I was a bit older and my pay increased I could still get them despite the pay rise bringing my pay over the limit because they were based on income earned the previous tax year, not the current tax year (at the time.)

I think they might still be available if you are in an area where Universal Credit isn't available but the people eligible for them are minimal due to the maximum amount you can earn being significantly lower and the criteria about the amount of money you have in savings accounts applying to all income based benefits.

 

[SteveP29]

IMHO after the referendum and departure of Cameron then May should've appointed a "National Government"

Why?
This was a situation entirely of the Conservative Party's creation.
Its their problem, let them sort it

Apart from in wartime, when have you ever known the party in power even give a sniff of that power to the opposition?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Why?
This was a situation entirely of the Conservative Party's creation.
Its their problem, let them sort it

Apart from in wartime, when have you ever known the party in power even give a sniff of that power to the opposition?

After the Wall Street Crash and the depression that followed we had a national government in the early 30's

 

[Aictos]

What mandate? She went to the country last year to get a mandate, and although both main parties stood on manifestos offering Brexit, May failed to get a mandate for the Tory-only Brexit that she has spent her whole time in office attemtping to deliver. She has no right to expect any support from anyone outside the Tory party, let alone any right to expect any support from those of us who voted to remain.

You're missing the point and let me give you some examples why you are wrong:

1. You nor anyone here holds the office of Prime Minister therefore you only can judge by the media on how well she does or doesn't do well in her job bearing in mind the media are a fickle lot who will jump on any bandwagon if it suits their purpose.

2. As Prime Minister it is down to her to get a agreement thrashed out between the UK and Europe which is agreed on by all concerned.

3. Although she did not get a all out majority and is at this time being propped up by the DUP party, she is still the Prime Minister and as such has to find central ground to find a common agreement with all concerned.

4. The only issue that rabid Remainers want is to stay in the EU and they don't have any suggestions on how to actually come to a agreement on Brexit apart from coming up with We need another nationwide vote or We can cancel Brexit etc

5. The only issue that rabid Leavers want is to leave the EU at all costs and again like the rabid Remainers don't actually have any suggestions on how to come to a agreement on Brexit apart from coming up with We need a Hard Brexit or May is not doing enough to assert the UK's position.

6. As I pointed out in my post which you so kindly glossed over was the fact that instead of arguing the toss over who's policies are better, moaning about Brexit happening or moaning that not enough is being done to ensure a successful Brexit etc...

Both Remainers and Leavers need to sit down and find some common ground even if it means both sides having to compromise, this needs to happen for the greater good of the country and not just use the current status quo for well she didn't get a mandate so she can't speak for me etc...

Indeed as Jeremy Corbyn has rightfully said and it's a pity that not more actually take note of this from both Leave and Remain but he said and I quote:

"There will be some who will tell you that Brexit is a disaster for this country and some who will tell you that Brexit will create a land of milk and honey. The truth is that it’s in our hands: Brexit is what we make of it together."

Jeremy Corbyn

 

[Ken H]

Why?
This was a situation entirely of the Conservative Party's creation.
Its their problem, let them sort it

Apart from in wartime, when have you ever known the party in power even give a sniff of that power to the opposition?

if Cameron hadn't made the referendum a manifesto promise then there was a chance many would have voted UKIP, not tory in 2015. The tories thought this could have lost them the 2015 election. UKIP got 26% in the euros a year before, the biggest vote share.

so Cameron did his renegotiation and thought the referendum result would be a resounding remain win.

Cameron and the EU totally misread the UK electorate on this.

 

[northwichcat]

4. The only issue that rabid Remainers want is to stay in the EU and they don't have any suggestions on how to actually come to a agreement on Brexit apart from coming up with We need another nationwide vote or We can cancel Brexit etc

5. The only issue that rabid Leavers want is to leave the EU at all costs and again like the rabid Remainers don't actually have any suggestions on how to come to a agreement on Brexit apart from coming up with We need a Hard Brexit or May is not doing enough to assert the UK's position.

To an extent May's Brexit plan does have some conditions which those who voted remain will like, as well as some conditions that those who want hard Brexit will like. The problem is, as we know, there is not one form of Brexit which the majority of the population want.

 

[bramling]

Indeed as Jeremy Corbyn has rightfully said and it's a pity that not more actually take note of this from both Leave and Remain but he said and I quote:

"There will be some who will tell you that Brexit is a disaster for this country and some who will tell you that Brexit will create a land of milk and honey. The truth is that it’s in our hands: Brexit is what we make of it together."

Jeremy Corbyn

These may well be wise words, however I haven't seen much from Corbyn to suggest that he'd be any better. On the contrary, no one really knows that the Corbyn / Labour position actually is, and I get the distinct impression that Corbyn simply wishes to capitalise on the Conservative issues as it represents his only potential route to power. Bearing in mind Corbyn's age, it's his only shot at power and implementing all his ideological policy dreams. Brexit should have been a cross-party issue, but sadly that was never going to happen.