EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[AlterEgo]

But the goverments agree to the rules and abide by them - if they didnt agree then it would go back to the EU for a change in the rules.

But that isn't the point. I never said Ireland didn't *agree* to it. It's not like the EU is invading them.

 

[nidave]

Ireland agreed to apply the ruled equally then decided to give what the EU saus as state aid (which ireland agreed is illigal) - they didnt give the rate to anyone else so the EU stepd in. Ireland agreed to all this at the time and agreed to abide by the rules.

 

[AlterEgo]

Ireland agreed to apply the ruled equally then decided to give what the EU saus as state aid (which ireland agreed is illigal) - they didnt give the rate to anyone else so the EU stepd in. Ireland agreed to all this at the time and agreed to abide by the rules.

Ireland agreed to cede sovereignty of its tax affairs to the EU by allowing them to regulate them and decide what was and wasn't legal - correct, thank you, we agree.

This is the only point I was trying to make. I wasn't making it out to be an injustice. Not everything in this thread is bleeding heart moaning.

 

[najaB]

But I would very much like to see Remainers stop asserting that membership of the EU doesn't involve ceding sovereignty over key affairs, like setting your own tax regime. This, to me, is intellectual dishonesty.

Of course it means that powers are devolved - it's a fundamental principle that comes with being part of any group. If I want to meet up with my group of friends for a meal, and I want curry but most of them want Mexican, I'm going to have a curry Mexican.

 

[AlterEgo]

Of course it means that powers are devolved - it's a fundamental principle that comes with being part of any group. If I want to meet up with my group of friends for a meal, and I want curry but most of them want Mexican, I'm going to have a curry.

Are you sure the analogy there is correct? Surely you mean you'd end up going to a Mexican restaurant as that's what everyone else wants?

The Leaver may insist on a curry, and they might want to leave the group. They could end up eating on their own, but they have old friends to phone (but maybe their old friends aren't so good!)...and of course you alienate the rest of the group that want a Mexican.

 

[najaB]

Are you sure the analogy there is correct? Surely you mean you'd end up going to a Mexican restaurant as that's what everyone else wants?

The Leaver may insist on a curry, and they might want to leave the group. They could end up eating on their own, but they have old friends to phone (but maybe their old friends aren't so good!)...and of course you alienate the rest of the group that want a Mexican.

LOL. Correct - that was my inner Rees-Moggs coming out!

 

[AlterEgo]

LOL. Correct - that was my inner Rees-Moggs coming out!

Can’t see JRM eating a Mexican or a curry...

 

[furnessvale]

But the goverments agree to the rules and to abide by them - if they didnt agree then it would go back to the EU for a change in the rules.

Thanks for that most interesting graphic. The lack of a direct link between MEPs debating the idea and actually having it binned amply demonstrates what a waste of space this VERY expensive talking shop actually is.

 

[Esker-pades]

Thanks for that most interesting graphic. The lack of a direct link between MEPs debating the idea and actually having it binned amply demonstrates what a waste of space this VERY expensive talking shop actually is.

You can't have it both ways. It can't be an ineffective talking shop whilst simultaneously putting out so much legislation that British business is drowning in red tape. Those two events are mutually exclusive.

 

[northwichcat]

Thanks for that most interesting graphic. The lack of a direct link between MEPs debating the idea and actually having it binned amply demonstrates what a waste of space this VERY expensive talking shop actually is.

Unlike our own government where a private member's bill can get through without being approved by the majority of MPs, as long as no-one turns up to object. While on the other hand a bill which everyone on the government benches support can fail to get through, even with a majority government, as there's no proper way of dealing with votes for MPs who have genuine reasons for absence e.g. illness, recent childbirth, having important parliamentary business elsewhere on the day of the vote etc.

The other thing the graphic makes clear is our MEPs make up around 10% of the total, despite there being 28 member states so we're one of the most powerful EU members. The only problem is we have so many UKIP MEPs who can't be arsed.

 

[Howardh]

Thanks for that most interesting graphic. The lack of a direct link between MEPs debating the idea and actually having it binned amply demonstrates what a waste of space this VERY expensive talking shop actually is.

As opposed to the UK sysyem where the "talking shop" is the civil service, House of Lords, Parliament, government and the cabinet (back and forth...back and forth...) until they subject us to new laws and taxes of which we have no say over whatsoever...save for one solitary vote every five years or a strong letter to The Times?!!
OK, we do have public enquiries, representations, the courts etc (no doubt the European Commission and Parliament has too?) which comes to nothing if they want to frack, but at least the Kentish folks have avenues to prevent the construction of massive lorry-parks all over Kent.....
At least the UK had a veto, which the good people of Lancashire don't.
Or Kent.
*Sighs*

 

[northwichcat]

As opposed to the UK sysyem where the "talking shop" is the civil service, House of Lords, Parliament, government and the cabinet (back and forth...back and forth...) until they subject us to new laws and taxes of which we have no say over whatsoever...save for one solitary vote every five years or a strong letter to The Times?!!
OK, we do have public enquiries, representations, the courts etc (no doubt the European Commission and Parliament has too?) which comes to nothing if they want to frack, but at least the Kentish folks have avenues to prevent the construction of massive lorry-parks all over Kent.....
At least the UK had a veto, which the good people of Lancashire don't.
Or Kent.
*Sighs*

In the case of Lancashire the local elected council officials rejected an application to allow fracking only for Sajid Javid to say they made the wrong decision and to overule them. Now imagine if the EU said implementing the result of the EU referendum was the wrong decision and consequently they aren't going to allow us to leave.

 

[furnessvale]

You can't have it both ways. It can't be an ineffective talking shop whilst simultaneously putting out so much legislation that British business is drowning in red tape. Those two events are mutually exclusive.

I can have it both ways. The legislation drowning British business (your words) is not put out by the ineffective talking shop (European Parliament). That is done by the Commission who are anything but an ineffective talking shop.

 

[furnessvale]

As opposed to the UK sysyem where the "talking shop" is the civil service, House of Lords, Parliament, government and the cabinet (back and forth...back and forth...) until they subject us to new laws and taxes of which we have no say over whatsoever...save for one solitary vote every five years or a strong letter to The Times?!!
OK, we do have public enquiries, representations, the courts etc (no doubt the European Commission and Parliament has too?) which comes to nothing if they want to frack, but at least the Kentish folks have avenues to prevent the construction of massive lorry-parks all over Kent.....
At least the UK had a veto, which the good people of Lancashire don't.
Or Kent.
*Sighs*

One solitary vote every five years is one more vote than I get for the real power brokers of Europe. the Commission.

Glad you used the word "had". Many areas of veto were given away so now it is majority voting.

 

[AM9]

As opposed to the UK sysyem where the "talking shop" is the civil service, House of Lords, Parliament, government and the cabinet (back and forth...back and forth...) until they subject us to new laws and taxes of which we have no say over whatsoever...save for one solitary vote every five years or a strong letter to The Times?!!
OK, we do have public enquiries, representations, the courts etc (no doubt the European Commission and Parliament has too?) which comes to nothing if they want to frack, but at least the Kentish folks have avenues to prevent the construction of massive lorry-parks all over Kent.....
At least the UK had a veto, which the good people of Lancashire don't.
Or Kent.
*Sighs*

That would make an interesting graphic to compare with the example of the EU process given in post #12509.

 

[AM9]

As opposed to the UK sysyem where the "talking shop" is the civil service, House of Lords, Parliament, government and the cabinet (back and forth...back and forth...) until they subject us to new laws and taxes of which we have no say over whatsoever...save for one solitary vote every five years or a strong letter to The Times?!!
OK, we do have public enquiries, representations, the courts etc (no doubt the European Commission and Parliament has too?) which comes to nothing if they want to frack, but at least the Kentish folks have avenues to prevent the construction of massive lorry-parks all over Kent.....
At least the UK had a veto, which the good people of Lancashire don't.
Or Kent.
*Sighs*

That would make an interesting graphic

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

In the case of Lancashire the local elected council officials rejected an application to allow fracking only for Sajid Javid to say they made the wrong decision and to overule them. Now imagine if the EU said implementing the result of the EU referendum was the wrong decision and consequently they aren't going to allow us to leave.

you mean like they did when they didn't agree with the result of elections in Italy, Greece etc? or like they did when Ireland and Denmark had referendums and got the "wrong" answer?

 

[northwichcat]

you mean like they did when they didn't agree with the result of elections in Italy, Greece etc? or like they did when Ireland and Denmark had referendums and got the "wrong" answer?

As we're an EU member can you confirm all our elected MEPs were against those decisions? I'm thinking maybe even the UKIP MEPs wouldn't like the idea of Italy or Greece having a budget which would see them not repaying European loans they received, given they always complained about how much money we were sending to the EU.

 

[furnessvale]

As we're an EU member can you confirm all our elected MEPs were against those decisions? I'm thinking maybe even the UKIP MEPs wouldn't like the idea of Italy or Greece having a budget which would see them not repaying European loans they received, given they always complained about how much money we were sending to the EU.

To be honest, I am not really bothered what ANY MEP makes of Brexit. It would take a principled man/woman indeed, to voluntarily step off that particular gravy train!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

As we're an EU member can you confirm all our elected MEPs were against those decisions? I'm thinking maybe even the UKIP MEPs wouldn't like the idea of Italy or Greece having a budget which would see them not repaying European loans they received, given they always complained about how much money we were sending to the EU.

well seeing as though I was replying to a post about Government overuling a council and the people's wishes I don't think it's here or there whether all MEP's agreed or not... the fact is that countries within the EU have taken decisions that the EU in all it's might have disagreed with and the EU has overuled the decisions taken.... one of the main reasons why I voted leave was because the EU is undemocratic in the way it operates... remainers are always taking me to task saying the EU IS democratic.... so which is it? is it a democratic organisation where the will of the people is sacrosanct? or is it undemocratic and will impose it's will on the people and force them to change their minds when they don't agree with it?

Remainers can't have it both ways...

Whether the Governments concerned would've been good for those countries or not is totally immaterial to the argument... the people of those countries made a democratic decision which was then overruled by the EU which, incidently, is not meant to interfere in the internal politics of it's member states...

As I've said before, the EU is NOT a democracy... it is the worst kind of dictatorship you can have...a dictatorship by committee...

if anyone wishes to argue that the EU is a democracy here's a question... who in the EU has the power to enact legislation? is it the elected parliament {as in the UK} or is it people who are "appointed" and not elected.. check the graphic posted above if you need any help answering the question

 

[Howardh]

well seeing as though I was replying to a post about Government overuling a council and the people's wishes I don't think it's here or there whether all MEP's agreed or not... the fact is that countries within the EU have taken decisions that the EU in all it's might have disagreed with and the EU has overuled the decisions taken.... one of the main reasons why I voted leave was because the EU is undemocratic in the way it operates... remainers are always taking me to task saying the EU IS democratic.... so which is it? is it a democratic organisation where the will of the people is sacrosanct? or is it undemocratic and will impose it's will on the people and force them to change their minds when they don't agree with it?

Remainers can't have it both ways...

Whether the Governments concerned would've been good for those countries or not is totally immaterial to the argument... the people of those countries made a democratic decision which was then overruled by the EU which, incidently, is not meant to interfere in the internal politics of it's member states...

As I've said before, the EU is NOT a democracy... it is the worst kind of dictatorship you can have...a dictatorship by committee...

if anyone wishes to argue that the EU is a democracy here's a question... who in the EU has the power to enact legislation? is it the elected parliament {as in the UK} or is it people who are "appointed" and not elected.. check the graphic posted above if you need any help answering the question

OK, let's turn it around. If the EU is so undemocratic, I will give you a blank sheet of paper. How would you make it more democratic so you'd be happy?

 

[northwichcat]

well seeing as though I was replying to a post about Government overuling a council and the people's wishes I don't think it's here or there whether all MEP's agreed or not... the fact is that countries within the EU have taken decisions that the EU in all it's might have disagreed with and the EU has overuled the decisions taken.... one of the main reasons why I voted leave was because the EU is undemocratic in the way it operates... remainers are always taking me to task saying the EU IS democratic.... so which is it? is it a democratic organisation where the will of the people is sacrosanct? or is it undemocratic and will impose it's will on the people and force them to change their minds when they don't agree with it?

Remainers can't have it both ways...

Whether the Governments concerned would've been good for those countries or not is totally immaterial to the argument... the people of those countries made a democratic decision which was then overruled by the EU which, incidently, is not meant to interfere in the internal politics of it's member states...

As I've said before, the EU is NOT a democracy... it is the worst kind of dictatorship you can have...a dictatorship by committee...

if anyone wishes to argue that the EU is a democracy here's a question... who in the EU has the power to enact legislation? is it the elected parliament {as in the UK} or is it people who are "appointed" and not elected.. check the graphic posted above if you need any help answering the question

I'm not having it both ways.

Lancashire's elected councillors rejected fracking and were overruled by higher ranking British politicians (MPs.)

You brought up Italy, Greece etc. so I asked you if higher ranking British politicians (MEPs) had any influence in those decisions. You seem unable to answer so presumably the answer is either "Yes" or that you have absolutely no idea.

Can you not see that if British MEPs were involved in those decisions, the problem is British politicians not respecting the decisions of more local representatives and that problem won't be solved by Brexit - it'll get 100 times worse.

 

[EM2]

you mean like they did when they didn't agree with the result of elections in Italy, Greece etc? or like they did when Ireland and Denmark had referendums and got the "wrong" answer?

What actions did the EU actually take in these instances?

 

[birchesgreen]

Have they got enough letters yet or is Mogg all mouth and expensively tailored trousers?

 

[northwichcat]

Have they got enough letters yet or is Mogg all mouth and expensively tailored trousers?

No and Graham Brady, the man collecting the letters, has told reporters he's sick of being asked the question.

 

[Ken H]

DUP abstaining in finance bill votes this evening. This must ramp up the pressure on May. And make tory MP's think a new leader is better than fighting a GE with May as leader. We will see.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

DUP abstaining in finance bill votes this evening. This must ramp up the pressure on May. And make tory MP's think a new leader is better than fighting a GE with May as leader. We will see.

if TM keeps her job and is forced to call a General Election it would be an interesting one considering a large percentage would want to vote ABCoM {anyone but corbyn or may}

 

[bramling]

if TM keeps her job and is forced to call a General Election it would be an interesting one considering a large percentage would want to vote ABCoM {anyone but corbyn or may}

I dread to think what mess a GE might cause. The last one certainly did.

The current situation is depressing for sure. Personally I’ve always been comfortable with the idea of no deal, however clearly preparations for that should have been in place and clearly haven’t.

To my mind May has made two major errors - firstly the bungled general election, which gave us an unwanted influence in the form of the DUP. Then failing to make any preparations for no deal. There’s also the unrelated problem of lack of leadership talent - a more inspiring leader wouldn’t have bungled the election for a start. In that sense I don’t think this is all a Brexit problem, but more a more fundamental problem with our politics at the moment.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I dread to think what mess a GE might cause. The last one certainly did.

The current situation is depressing for sure. Personally I’ve always been comfortable with the idea of no deal, however clearly preparations for that should have been in place and clearly haven’t.

To my mind May has made two major errors - firstly the bungled general election, which gave us an unwanted influence in the form of the DUP. Then failing to make any preparations for no deal. There’s also the unrelated problem of lack of leadership talent - a more inspiring leader wouldn’t have bungled the election for a start. In that sense I don’t think this is all a Brexit problem, but more a more fundamental problem with our politics at the moment.

But to be fair Brexit does mean Brexit and she's Strong and Stable about that....which is about all she'd ever tell anyone absoout progress with the deal... now we know why... tbh seeing as though she is a self-confessed remainer it wouldn't surprise me if she's been colluding with the EU to come up with this so called deal... how else can you explain how a deal that means we're tied closer to Europe and more irrivocably be called "Brexit"

 

[fowler9]

But to be fair Brexit does mean Brexit and she's Strong and Stable about that....which is about all she'd ever tell anyone absoout progress with the deal... now we know why... tbh seeing as though she is a self-confessed remainer it wouldn't surprise me if she's been colluding with the EU to come up with this so called deal... how else can you explain how a deal that means we're tied closer to Europe and more irrovably be called "Brexit"

There never was going to be a deal mate. Not in my opinion anyway. There is nothing possible that could be better for the country than what we already have. The only option is to bomb out and hope it works better than being in the EU.