Set down/pick up only at Milton Keynes Central

[Bletchleyite]

From thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/anytime-ticket-virgin-1710-euston-to-mk.173582/#post-3730922

Personally I think having pick up only/set down only stops is a load of bollocks!
What probably happens now is that the MK passengers are all crammed into rammed WMT services, and the VT services carry fresh air.
If they removed the restrictions the load of passengers would be more evenly distributed.

They really wouldn't. They'd all cram onto the VTs full and standing, ensuring that those travelling further would be unable to get a seat or often even board.

If you don't believe me, try hanging around MKC at about 0700. There is an obsession among MKC passengers of getting on the VT at all costs. These days I mostly use Bletchley, but when I lived nearer MKC as I did some years ago I chose the LM services as they were invariably quieter and meant a certain seat.

 

[cactustwirly]

From thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/anytime-ticket-virgin-1710-euston-to-mk.173582/#post-3730922



They really wouldn't. They'd all cram onto the VTs full and standing, ensuring that those travelling further would be unable to get a seat or often even board.

If you don't believe me, try hanging around MKC at about 0700. There is an obsession among MKC passengers of getting on the VT at all costs. These days I mostly use Bletchley, but when I lived nearer MKC as I did some years ago I chose the LM services as they were invariably quieter and meant a certain seat.

How many fast trains are there to MK, and how busy are they?

 

[yorkie]

How many fast trains are there to MK, and how busy are they?

Others can answer the latter, but to answer the first part: lots, including a 1713 which is due to arrive into MKC 5 minutes after the 1710.

http://www.fastjp.com/#journeys?orig=EUS&dest=MKC&odate=20181114&otime=1645&maxres=11&maxch=6

 

[Bletchleyite]

None of them are busy by comparison with GWR Turbos in the evening peak. Some of them are fairly busy, on others you'll be certain of a double seat if you walk to the front coach of 12.

 

[cactustwirly]

None of them are busy by comparison with GWR Turbos in the evening peak. Some of them are fairly busy, on others you'll be certain of a double seat if you walk to the front coach of 12.

But are those the proper fast trains though?
On GWR out of Paddington the 387 services are full with local passengers, to the extent that it would be total chaos if Reading passengers had to use them as well!
HSTs & IETs even call at Maidenhead & Twyford in the peaks to even out the loads

 

[Bletchleyite]

But are those the proper fast trains though?

What exactly do you mean by "the proper fast trains"? Do you mean non-stop to MKC? There are some such services, but the pattern is rather complex and is cleverly designed to eke out maximum line capacity and to get the most out of the fleet, and really does it very well, all things considered. Have a read of it from the LNR site.

There isn't a clear "Pendolinos are fast, everything else is slow" delimitation on the WCML like there is from Paddington or on Thameslink.

 

[cactustwirly]

What exactly do you mean by "the proper fast trains"? Do you mean non-stop to MKC? There are some such services, but the pattern is rather complex and is cleverly designed to eke out maximum line capacity. Have a read of it from the LNR site.

Non stop or with one intermediate stop etc, so that the journey time is comparable to VTWC.
How busy are the VT services that pick up at MK during the evening peak?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Non stop or with one intermediate stop etc, so that the journey time is comparable to VTWC.

Yes, there are quite a number of such LNR services. Between 1800 and 1900 roughly there are also services non-stop to MKC, at other times it's one stop (Leighton Buzzard). Off peak there's 1tph fast (the Crewe service) but as it's restricted to 4-car that can't run the same way in the peaks.

The busiest time is 1800-1830, and in that timescale you've got a wide choice of fast and slow, the fastest being the 1813 (12 car) which is non-stop to MKC, and there's the 1816 (8 car) just behind which adds Leighton Buzzard. The 1816 was a recent addition, prior to that the 1813 had a Leighton stop and was heavily overcrowded. What you've effectively got now is a 20-coach train at about quarter past six, and it handles the loads really quite well.

A similar thing was done for slow-line passengers - the former 1824 (8 car) was split into an 1820 (8 car) and 1829 (I think also 8 but may have been 12 in the past) - basically a 16-car slow train between the two of them, they skip stop half the stops each.

It's all very clever and very effective indeed.

How busy are the VT services that pick up at MK during the evening peak?

Enough space for those boarding at MKC to get a seat, usually. But not empty, either. If they carried MKC commuters there would be a Reading like problem of them being full and standing and long-distance passengers being unable to board.

Personally, I think the WCML has got it right and the GWML got it wrong, to be honest. Reading needs 3 or 4tph of 12-car fasts, and the commuters need off the 800s.

 

[yorkie]

Personally, I think the WCML has got it right and the GWML got it wrong, to be honest...

Agreed.

While some set down/pick up only restrictions are sensible, and some are not enforced (e.g. Stratford to Liverpool Street), the 1710 does seem to be very sensible to me. Sorry to any MKC commuters who want to take that instead of the 1713, but really it's for the greater good.

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes, there are quite a number of such LNR services. Between 1800 and 1900 roughly there are also services non-stop to MKC, at other times it's one stop (Leighton Buzzard). Off peak there's 1tph fast (the Crewe service) but as it's restricted to 4-car that can't run the same way in the peaks.

The busiest time is 1800-1830, and in that timescale you've got a wide choice of fast and slow, the fastest being the 1813 (12 car) which is non-stop to MKC, and there's the 1816 (8 car) just behind which adds Leighton Buzzard. The 1816 was a recent addition, prior to that the 1813 had a Leighton stop and was heavily overcrowded. What you've effectively got now is a 20-coach train at about quarter past six, and it handles the loads really quite well.

A similar thing was done for slow-line passengers - the former 1824 (8 car) was split into an 1820 (8 car) and 1829 (I think also 8 but may have been 12 in the past) - basically a 16-car slow train between the two of them, they skip stop half the stops each.

It's all very clever and very effective indeed.



Enough space for those boarding at MKC to get a seat, usually. But not empty, either. If they carried MKC commuters there would be a Reading like problem of them being full and standing and long-distance passengers being unable to board.

Personally, I think the WCML has got it right and the GWML got it wrong, to be honest. Reading needs 3 or 4tph of 12-car fasts, and the commuters need off the 800s.

Right but there is neither the capacity nor the stock for fast 387s to Reading atm, so we're stuck where we are with the current situation of commuters using the Intercity services.

 

[cactustwirly]

The MML doesn't have pickup only/set down restrictions either, however I don't have much experience traveling at peak times, since I live too far north for too many London commuters and I usually travel during off-peak hours

 

[Kite159]

Agreed.

While some set down/pick up only restrictions are sensible, and some are not enforced (e.g. Stratford to Liverpool Street), the 1710 does seem to be very sensible to me. Sorry to any MKC commuters who want to take that instead of the 1713, but really it's for the greater good.

The only time I've seen the set-down restrictions enforced at Stratford is during the morning peak period where station staff don't allow you up the stairs to platforms 9 & 10 (with any services calling heading towards Shenfield using Platform 10A)

 

[Bald Rick]

The MML doesn't have pickup only/set down restrictions either, however I don't have much experience traveling at peak times, since I live too far north for too many London commuters and I usually travel during off-peak hours

And they don’t need them at present, as they don’t call at Bedford / Luton in the peak / peak direction!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only time I've seen the set-down restrictions enforced at Stratford is during the morning peak period where station staff don't allow you up the stairs to platforms 9 & 10 (with any services calling heading towards Shenfield using Platform 10A)

Southbound there's less of a case for it because it can't prevent a long distance passenger from boarding or getting a seat, as they have already boarded and are already in the seat.

You also get it for other reasons, such as the former set-down-only policy of VT towards Manchester from Stockport wasn't to stop people travelling (and indeed they did nothing to stop anyone boarding nor to penalise them if they did) but just so that if the train was early at Stockport and a path was available it didn't have to wait for time.

 

[Kite159]

Southbound there's less of a case for it because it can't prevent a long distance passenger from boarding or getting a seat, as they have already boarded and are already in the seat.

You also get it for other reasons, such as the former set-down-only policy of VT towards Manchester from Stockport wasn't to stop people travelling (and indeed they did nothing to stop anyone boarding nor to penalise them if they did) but just so that if the train was early at Stockport and a path was available it didn't have to wait for time.

The morning peak set-down only at Stratford is probably more to do with crowd control due to the access to the platforms at Stratford (they can use the full width of the stairs). Any passengers at Stratford wanting Liverpool Street have TfL Rail or the Central Line as options to reaching Liverpool Street.

 

[cactustwirly]

The morning peak set-down only at Stratford is probably more to do with crowd control due to the access to the platforms at Stratford (they can use the full width of the stairs). Any passengers at Stratford wanting Liverpool Street have TfL Rail or the Central Line as options to reaching Liverpool Street.

Both of which are heavily overcrowded in the peaks!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Both of which are heavily overcrowded in the peaks!

And the ICs would be too if use of those was allowed.

Go to MKC in the morning peak (where VTs call up to about 0715ish). People prefer to ram themselves onto those than to take a slightly slower journey on the LNRs and have a guaranteed seat near enough. (There are no non-stop LNRs in the morning peak, all the fasts call at Leighton).

You could of course solve it a different way by having an InterCity supplement, so it's cheaper to use the commuter trains, but the UK doesn't tend to like that approach, and indeed except for seasons using VT is actually cheaper due to their dedicated fares!

 

[cactustwirly]

And the ICs would be too if use of those was allowed.

Go to MKC in the morning peak (where VTs call up to about 0715ish). People prefer to ram themselves onto those than to take a slightly slower journey on the LNRs and have a guaranteed seat near enough. (There are no non-stop LNRs in the morning peak, all the fasts call at Leighton).

You could of course solve it a different way by having an InterCity supplement, so it's cheaper to use the commuter trains, but the UK doesn't tend to like that approach, and indeed except for seasons using VT is actually cheaper due to their dedicated fares!

Yes, but it's only a 5 minute journey into Liverpool Street, if commuters were allowed to use these then it would have a huge benefit in terms of capacity.
The Central line in particular is so full that you have to wait for 2 or 3 trains to pass before you can physically board!

So, if the VT services have capacity, then I don't see why commuters shouldn't be allowed to use them.
To me, barring commuters off IC services and cramming them into slow and busy stopping services, is a wasteful use of capacity IMO.

On the GWML we have semi fasts from Reading operated by 387s, but they're mainly full of Maidenhead & Twyford commuters, and IC express services overtake them between Reading and Maidenhead

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is that argument southbound, which is why some do stop. The problem northbound is that allowing commuters on them would mean that long distance travellers would be unable to board - that would be an unacceptable situation.

 

[cactustwirly]

There is that argument southbound, which is why some do stop. The problem northbound is that allowing commuters on them would mean that long distance travellers would be unable to board - that would be an unacceptable situation.

But that's a bit extreme isn't it?
From my experience, the long distance travellers board the train first, then the train fills up with the commuters, since they arrive into the station and take the first available service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But that's a bit extreme isn't it?
From my experience, the long distance travellers board the train first, then the train fills up with the commuters, since they arrive into the station and take the first available service.

That isn't how people do it at Euston at all. Have you ever travelled between Milton Keynes Central and Euston and vice versa in the peaks? If not, perhaps you should try it out and see how people behave? In particular, the vast majority of passengers intending to board a specific service are already on the concourse when the platform number goes up, hence the "Euston scrum" to board.

What us (obviously more intelligent) Euston commuters do is to use knowledge that we have to make the seat of our choice more likely, such as using RTT to find out where the train is, or even just knowing the platforms for given services as platforming at Euston is very consistent. On most services there are a significant number of commuters already waiting by the doors (or by the closed barrier gate in VT's case) well before it goes up on the board.

I assure you - the commuters will be on first, and it'll be inexperienced holders of Advance tickets who have issues.

FWIW this different behaviour may well be because the WCML service pattern, while the peaks have been tweaked over the years, is of a roughly half hourly fastest service to/from each commuter destination[1], which is infrequent enough that people don't arrive as randomly, but rather plan to arrive for their intended train. Or if they know they'll miss it, they sit at work browsing the Web or planning their evening and leave at the right time to catch the next one.

[1] Tweaks like the 1813 and 1816 being different are to all intents and purposes one 20 car train, not a separate 12 and 8.

 

[cactustwirly]

That isn't how people do it at Euston at all. Have you ever travelled between Milton Keynes Central and Euston and vice versa in the peaks? If not, perhaps you should try it out and see how people behave? In particular, the vast majority of passengers intending to board a specific service are already on the concourse when the platform number goes up, hence the "Euston scrum" to board.

What us (obviously more intelligent) Euston commuters do is to use knowledge that we have to make the seat of our choice more likely, such as using RTT to find out where the train is, or even just knowing the platforms for given services as platforming at Euston is very consistent. On most services there are a significant number of commuters already waiting by the doors (or by the closed barrier gate in VT's case) well before it goes up on the board.

I assure you - the commuters will be on first, and it'll be inexperienced holders of Advance tickets who have issues.

FWIW this different behaviour may well be because the WCML service pattern, while the peaks have been tweaked over the years, is of a roughly half hourly fastest service to/from each commuter destination[1], which is infrequent enough that people don't arrive as randomly, but rather plan to arrive for their intended train.

[1] Tweaks like the 1813 and 1816 being different are to all intents and purposes one 20 car train, not a separate 12 and 8.

But aren't the platforms for the VT services put up 20 minutes before departure?
Some odd commuters at Euston that turn up more than 20 minutes before their train.
Paddington has a similar "scrum" but the commuters generally only turn up 10 minutes before departure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But aren't the platforms for the VT services put up 20 minutes before departure?

No. Very often it's much closer to the departure time than that.

Some odd commuters at Euston that turn up more than 20 minutes before their train.

Quite a few of them do. Go there and have a look.

It's very different from Paddington to Reading because the frequency of fast services is much, much higher. Even if the VTs did allow passengers to MKC, that's still only 3tph, and two of them (xx10 and xx20) are quite close together so to all intents and purposes that just means that the (effectively) 2tph that the MKC people get stops being the LNRs and starts being those VTs.

Paddington has a similar "scrum" but the commuters generally only turn up 10 minutes before departure.

Paddington isn't Euston and the situation is quite different, not least that near enough all GWR IC services call at Reading, and only three out of the nine (sorry, miscounted) VTs out of Euston per hour call at MKC. And this isn't going to change pre-HS2.