Arriva Rail North DOO

[northwichcat]

Tougher strike laws would probably be preferable to intentionally playing it that dirty .

It's not necessarily playing it dirty. If a TOC hands back the franchise and it goes to public ownership it's common for some changes to be reviewed and then done as part of the following private franchise rather than during the course of the public franchise, as DCO is causing issues I'd expect that to be reviewed even if the review doesn't end the way the RMT would like. Then if a new private franchise is let starting in 3 years time then including replacement of Sprinters could be an option and then that option would allow more DOO/DCO.

 

[HowardGWR]

It has emerged on this thread that there are staff members who just can't see the hopelessness of the points they make. It should be their union to gently bring them to accept the new methods of working and to seek security of employment.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern mess today:
07:40 Manchester to Chester cancelled due to no driver (unit usually returns to Newton Heath via Warrington after running that service.)
08:18 Stockport to Chester operates (unit off that service usually runs 10:02 Chester to Manchester.)

Now what happened to the 10:02 Chester to Manchester? It didn't operate because the guard who is supposed to be working on that service remained at Piccadilly due to the 07:40 being cancelled.

I imagine the RMT will say that's precisely why they don't want any services to be able to operate without guards because they could have done something to prevent the cancellation of the 10:02 Chester to Manchester and if Northern could have operated without a guard they would have done. However, in the case of the guard being no longer able to continue working the service when the train is in the middle of nowhere it's not a good solution to throw all the passengers off or to leave a train blocking a line while they send a replacement guard by taxi even if there's always spare guards available. So there's needs to be a solution which prevents the latter and penalises TOCs if they try to use the solution for the former e.g. a financial penalty a lot more than paying for a guard to be present on the train.

 

[B&I]

Northern mess today:
07:40 Manchester to Chester cancelled due to no driver (unit usually returns to Newton Heath via Warrington after running that service.)
08:18 Stockport to Chester operates (unit off that service usually runs 10:02 Chester to Manchester.)

Now what happened to the 10:02 Chester to Manchester? It didn't operate because the guard who is supposed to be working on that service remained at Piccadilly due to the 07:40 being cancelled.

I imagine the RMT will say that's precisely why they don't want any services to be able to operate without guards because they could have done something to prevent the cancellation of the 10:02 Chester to Manchester and if Northern could have operated without a guard they would have done. However, in the case of the guard being no longer able to continue working the service when the train is in the middle of nowhere it's not a good solution to throw all the passengers off or to leave a train blocking a line while they send a replacement guard by taxi even if there's always spare guards available. So there's needs to be a solution which prevents the latter and penalises TOCs if they try to use the solution for the former e.g. a financial penalty a lot more than paying for a guard to be present on the train.

Why do I get the feeling that Northern could go completely DOO and still manage this sort of cock-up on a regular basis ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why do I get the feeling that Northern could go completely DOO and still manage this sort of cock-up on a regular basis ?

Yes, I'm not entirely sure that gross incompetence will be allayed by introducing DOO. Though I suppose if the diagramming of both drivers and guards is incompetent, then if you only need a driver it's more likely the train will run (but not at all certain it will).

 

[LowLevel]

Stick the guard in a taxi for their next booked working like any other halfway competent operator might have done - Or even on the 0750 or 0850 ATW services via Warrington!! - and your problem is no longer a problem. Sadly the Northern West side appears to be a complete disaster.

If I can see that way out in less than 10 seconds why are people being paid a good wage to sort it not being effective?

I prevented 2 cancellations yesterday due to a planning error - no extra biscuits for this guard looking carefully at his train workings though

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stick the guard in a taxi for their next booked working like any other halfway competent operator might have done

Northern of course are not halfway competent, or even a third of the way!

I prevented 2 cancellations yesterday due to a planning error - no extra biscuits for this guard looking carefully at his train workings though

You'd think it would actually make sense to have some kind of "bonus" scheme (a ten quid voucher or something, so I'm not suggesting burning through huge sums, just a "nice touch") for people catching errors before they cause disruption and taking action leading to their resolution.

 

[PR1Berske]

The DFT are already pushing towards a staffless railway.

They're not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're not.

They probably are working towards a reduced staff railway, but not a staffless one.

FWIW other European railways are far thinner on staffing than any of the UK is. SBB's regional services are all DOO, unstaffed stations and the very, very occasional revenue squad (for the "absolute" PFs that apply, i.e. if the TVMs are out of order the station is closed unless you buy a mobile ticket, and if the cash slot is broken you pay card or you don't travel). Though there are indeed staffless "railways" in the form of funiculars, but those are I suppose just a glorified lift.

Having said that, it does all *look* very good - newly redone stations, brand new Stadler FLIRTs or tarted-up push-pull "EMUs" with a Bombardier-built low floor coach inserted, level boarding near enough throughout with gap bridgers etc. The whole thing is about applying the urban S-Bahn concepts to rural services - from stock, to consistent service patterns (albeit at a lower frequency) - to TVMs and DOO.

While there will no doubt be more staff than in Switzerland, the only part of the UK network that will look like that is the South Wales Metro - FLIRTs in a similar livery too! FWIW, I would take that setup "lock, stock and barrel" in preference to the appalling state of the North West's heavy rail network as it is at present - *including* the DOO.

 

[Starmill]

Northern mess today:
07:40 Manchester to Chester cancelled due to no driver (unit usually returns to Newton Heath via Warrington after running that service.)
08:18 Stockport to Chester operates (unit off that service usually runs 10:02 Chester to Manchester.)

Now what happened to the 10:02 Chester to Manchester? It didn't operate because the guard who is supposed to be working on that service remained at Piccadilly due to the 07:40 being cancelled.

I imagine the RMT will say that's precisely why they don't want any services to be able to operate without guards because they could have done something to prevent the cancellation of the 10:02 Chester to Manchester and if Northern could have operated without a guard they would have done. However, in the case of the guard being no longer able to continue working the service when the train is in the middle of nowhere it's not a good solution to throw all the passengers off or to leave a train blocking a line while they send a replacement guard by taxi even if there's always spare guards available. So there's needs to be a solution which prevents the latter and penalises TOCs if they try to use the solution for the former e.g. a financial penalty a lot more than paying for a guard to be present on the train.

14:02 Chester to Manchester Piccadilly due 15:30 will be cancelled.
This is due to a shortage of train drivers.
Additional Information
Passengers are advised to take the Transport for Wales service at 11.52 Manchester Piccadilly to Chester.
Further Information
For live information on this train,please visit northernrailway.co.uk/stations and select the station you are travelling from.
If you've been delayed by 30 minutes or more, hold on to your tickets and claim compensation by visiting northernrailway.co.uk/delayrepay

http://www.journeycheck.com/northern/

Very little seems to make sense with regards to this incident haha

 

[Carlisle]

It's not necessarily playing it dirty. If a TOC hands back the franchise and it goes to public ownership it's common for some changes to be reviewed and then done as part of the following private franchise rather than during the course of the public franchise, as DCO is causing issues I'd expect that to be reviewed even if the review doesn't end the way the RMT would like. Then if a new private franchise is let starting in 3 years time then including replacement of Sprinters could be an option and then that option would allow more DOO/DCO.

I suppose success would depend on what’s achieved during the period of public ownership., as simply suspending all DCO related proposals until it’s re let would probably amount to an open invitation (assuming the current regime are still running the RMT ) to repeat what’ll probably be an even more sustained campaign in 3 years time .

 

[DanTrain]

Hi all, sorry if this has already been mentionned (I'm not reading back all 200+ pages!), but I just want to illustrate the effects of this strike on the Hope Valley Line. It's worth pointing out that this is a line where DOO isn't even proposed due to long tunnels (as much as it might help with ticketing). A poster has appeared at Dore station showing the Saturday service and it's fairly abysmal for a station with 100k + passengers, and stations out in the Peak are receiving 2tpd on Saturdays, helpfully times at 06:45 and 11pm (EMT run 1st and last service). This has been going on for weeks and weeks, likely causing significant harm to local businesses and residents alike!

 

[northwichcat]

http://www.journeycheck.com/northern/

Very little seems to make sense with regards to this incident haha

If I can see that way out in less than 10 seconds why are people being paid a good wage to sort it not being effective?

Even something simple can have a big impact. The 15:02 Chester to Manchester left around 30 behind at Greenbank with Travel Safe officers removing passengers from the train so the doors could be closed and given the railways don't operate on a first come first served it's possible some left behind turned up for the previous cancelled service - it was operated by a 142 . If someone had thought as the previous service has been cancelled let's switch the 142 for a 150 off another route (obviously not Buxton) it probably would have meant everyone got on even if they were squashed like sardines.

 

[northwichcat]

Hi all, sorry if this has already been mentionned (I'm not reading back all 200+ pages!), but I just want to illustrate the effects of this strike on the Hope Valley Line. It's worth pointing out that this is a line where DOO isn't even proposed due to long tunnels (as much as it might help with ticketing). A poster has appeared at Dore station showing the Saturday service and it's fairly abysmal for a station with 100k + passengers, and stations out in the Peak are receiving 2tpd on Saturdays, helpfully times at 06:45 and 11pm (EMT run 1st and last service). This has been going on for weeks and weeks, likely causing significant harm to local businesses and residents alike!
View attachment 55275

One of the problems is Northern say the DOO/DCO routes are up for discussion and want the RMT to say what they think are suitable routes but the RMT refuse to discuss that so at the moment there isn't a confirmed list of depots which will have DOO/DCO routes, never mind routes even though we know it's very unlikely on certain routes.

My local station (over 500k annual usage) has never had a direct service to Manchester on a strike day and for the last few Saturday strikes the only service has been 3 replacement buses in each direction, which only go as far as Stockport.

 

[DanTrain]

One of the problems is Northern say the DOO/DCO routes are up for discussion and want the RMT to say what they think are suitable routes but the RMT refuse to discuss that so at the moment there isn't a confirmed list of depots which will have DOO/DCO routes, never mind routes even though we know it's very unlikely on certain routes.

Catch 22, no wonder it's dragging on so long .

 

[Killingworth]

Was speaking to a chap today who's wife had been in a Pacer that hit a landslide near one of the Hope Valley tunnels and the driver was badly shaken up. Guard did his job of protecting the train. Anyone who hears that story won't easily support removal of guards.

 

[CN75]

Was speaking to a chap today who's wife had been in a Pacer that hit a landslide near one of the Hope Valley tunnels and the driver was badly shaken up. Guard did his job of protecting the train. Anyone who hears that story won't easily support removal of guards.

People hearing the story would not, but was it a recent story? The guard should only be doing protection in terms of walking off down the track with red flags and a torch (abandoning the passengers to do as they please) if they cannot speak to the signaller and even then it’s to talk to them by the quickest possible means and then go back to the train. A derailed pacer would have two GSMR radios on board - a European wide standard technical system that doe not just ‘drop out’ day to day and has an emergency function that does the job of protecting trains a hundred times better than a guard or driver could.

 

[142Pilot]

People hearing the story would not, but was it a recent story? The guard should only be doing protection in terms of walking off down the track with red flags and a torch (abandoning the passengers to do as they please) if they cannot speak to the signaller and even then it’s to talk to them by the quickest possible means and then go back to the train. A derailed pacer would have two GSMR radios on board - a European wide standard technical system that doe not just ‘drop out’ day to day and has an emergency function that does the job of protecting trains a hundred times better than a guard or driver could.

You ever used one?

There are Gsmr dead points, and a decent size whack can render both useless as has happened a few time now.

 

[northwichcat]

Was speaking to a chap today who's wife had been in a Pacer that hit a landslide near one of the Hope Valley tunnels and the driver was badly shaken up. Guard did his job of protecting the train. Anyone who hears that story won't easily support removal of guards.

I think the one thing the majority of those on this forum can agree on is some routes are more suitable for DCO/DOO than others. In general I don't think having a fully automated train with no staff on board on the National Rail network would be a good idea and I would have a lot of concerns about one running a cross-Pennine route but if one was introduced on the Stourbridge shuttle with safety trained staff nearby during the hours of operation then I wouldn't feel it would be unsafe to travel on.

While we don't know for certain exactly what's in the redacted section of the franchise agreement there's strong indications that operating a train as DCO will only happen if there's staff at every station on the line which could led to a section of a service switching to traditional operation if it makes peak time only calls at unstaffed stations or DCO only being applicable at certain times of the day. Consequently it's also possible part of a route could be DCO so in the unlikely event of Hope Valley becoming DCO it could switch to guard operation at Marple and if there's no guard a Sheffield bound service will be terminated at Marple.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the one thing the majority of those on this forum can agree on is some routes are more suitable for DCO/DOO than others. In general I don't think having a fully automated train with no staff on board on the National Rail network would be a good idea and I would have a lot of concerns about one running a cross-Pennine route but if one was introduced on the Stourbridge shuttle with safety trained staff nearby during the hours of operation then I wouldn't feel it would be unsafe to travel on.

That is a fairly good point - is there really much to differentiate the Town Car from say the Birmingham Airport people mover which is completely unstaffed?

But that's a bit niche, anyway. I wouldn't expect totally unstaffed operation, but I would expect guard-only operation (DLR style) to appear in at least some places.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Well if this coming Saturday's timetables are to be believed, Northern seem to be cutting down the number of staff required by only running trains in one direction from Barnsley to Leeds and also in only one direction from Huddersfied to Barnsley!

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/strike

 

[northwichcat]

That is a fairly good point - is there really much to differentiate the Town Car from say the Birmingham Airport people mover which is completely unstaffed?

Talking about airports Toronto Pearson has one of those linking T1 to T3 which is unstaffed, then adjacent to the people mover at T1 there's the UP Express which is a DOO service to Toronto. The train is behind a wall of glass and for passengers to board not only do the train doors need to be opened but glass sliding doors need to be open, this prevents some of the potential issues which exist where there's a guard operated train service like preventing train surfing, passengers falling under the train, passengers banging on the doors if they want to board but the train is preparing for departure. Given there's multiple customer service on board I wonder how many passengers would consider that to be a 'driver only' service or a train using an 'unsafe' method of operation?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Talking about airports Toronto Pearson has one of those linking T1 to T3 which is unstaffed, then adjacent to the people mover at T1 there's the UP Express which is a DOO service to Toronto. The train is behind a wall of glass and for passengers to board not only do the train doors need to be opened but glass sliding doors need to be open, this prevents some of the potential issues which exist where there's a guard operated train service like preventing train surfing, passengers falling under the train, passengers banging on the doors if they want to board but the train is preparing for departure. Given there's multiple customer service on board I wonder how many passengers would consider that to be a 'driver only' service or a train using an 'unsafe' method of operation?

I've been on the UP Express recently, and I'm almost certain it is traditionally operated with a (non-revenue) guard (like near everything on the US mainline) and not DOO.

 

[Gems]

While we don't know for certain exactly what's in the redacted section of the franchise agreement there's strong indications that operating a train as DCO will only happen if there's staff at every station on the line which could led to a section of a service switching to traditional operation if it makes peak time only calls at unstaffed stations or DCO only being applicable at certain times of the day. Consequently it's also possible part of a route could be DCO so in the unlikely event of Hope Valley becoming DCO it could switch to guard operation at Marple and if there's no guard a Sheffield bound service will be terminated at Marple.

The problem with this form of working is crew diagramming. You end up having multi work links where one link may not have 'safety critical staff' and the other is seriously depleted in times of staff sickness, holiday's etc. It just creates a whole new layer of potential cancellations and short running.

 

[TheGrew]

Around here if I were to propose DCO/DOO routes I would aim for the more suburban rather than rural service so:

• Manchester to Liverpool via Chat Moss and CLC
• Liverpool to Wigan via St Helens
• Manchester to Wigan (all three possible routes)
• Manchester to Preston (and possibly to Blackpool North but I am not familiar with the line beyond Preston)
• Manchester to Crewe via Stockport and Styal (and Manchester to Airport)
• I think Merseyrail could be if it didn't then cause a revenue protection/security problem.

I think the services above have the right mix of station and service frequency.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail was proposed as DOO, but it seems an agreement may have been reached with the RMT for it to be OBS instead. But that has its own thread (which since said agreement has gone quiet as there have as of yet been no further developments). It would not cause a revenue protection or security issue per-se, as revenue is not done on board and the Byelaw teams provide security.

 

[Gems]

Well if this coming Saturday's timetables are to be believed, Northern seem to be cutting down the number of staff required by only running trains in one direction from Barnsley to Leeds and also in only one direction from Huddersfied to Barnsley!

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/strike

How they are working this is going to managers and asking them what days they are available to work. Then they set the timetables around that. They already know or have a good idea who is available. I'm afraid as Christmas approaches you may see services slowly dry up. Second week now I see there is nothing between Settle - Carlisle.

 

[northwichcat]

I've been on the UP Express recently, and I'm almost certain it is traditionally operated with a (non-revenue) guard (like near everything on the US mainline) and not DOO.

I was sure they had CCTV cameras on the side of the trains. It also isn't of course a US mainline service and the trains meet the stricter Canadian standards for the stowage of luggage but I think there was something about the trains meeting US emissions regulations meaning they could be cascaded to the US if the line gets electrified in the future, or allowing the US could order the same type of trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was sure they had CCTV cameras on the side of the trains. It also isn't of course a US mainline service and the trains meet the stricter Canadian standards for the stowage of luggage but I think there was something about the trains meeting US emissions regulations meaning they could be cascaded to the US if the line gets electrified in the future, or allowing the US could order the same type of trains.

Sorry, half asleep. All Canadian mainline stuff I know of is also not DOO.

 

[Carlisle]

The problem with this form of working is crew diagramming. You end up having multi work links where one link may not have 'safety critical staff' and the other is seriously depleted in times of staff sickness, holiday's etc. It just creates a whole new layer of potential cancellations and short running.

Yes, I think if DCO comes in, it’ll be almost identical to the Southern agreement of full DOO in certain agreed exceptional circumstances covering the whole route, anything else would likley be too complex to be worthwhile