DMU's On The Settle And Carlisle

[RichmondCommu]

Hi everyone,

Can anyone tell me which classes of DMU ran on the Settle and Carlisle route in the 60s and 70s?

Many thanks,

Angela.

 

[Ash Bridge]

During the 60s the original Derby lightweights did for sure. As for the 70s I would be rather certain Class 108 Derby Lightweight units would have operated and no doubt several other classes, including maybe Met Cam 101s.

 

[martinsh]

Bear in mind that in the 1970s there were no local trains as all the local stations had been closed. I suspect most services were loco-hauled ?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Bear in mind that in the 1970s there were no local trains as all the local stations had been closed. I suspect most services were loco-hauled ?

That's a valid point. I should have perhaps extended the title to cover the 1980s because my brother and I traveled on a service from Carlisle to Hull of all places that was a DMU sometime in the early 1980s.

 

[RichmondCommu]

During the 60s the original Derby lightweights did for sure. As for the 70s I would be rather certain Class 108 Derby Lightweight units would have operated and no doubt several other classes, including maybe Met Cam 101s.

Many thanks for this. I was pretty certain about the Derby lightweights but not so certain about what replaced them after they were withdrawn.

 

[30907]

108s were Heavyweights I think?

The re-formed 124s were used on (Hull-) Leeds-Lancaster for a number of years, but I don't recall them being used on the Carlisle line. The "fasts" were IIRC normally cl 31+4 Mk1 and ISTR there were workings from Hull.

The stopping service, when reintroduced, would have been whatever was to hand, typically 101/108 as Ash Bridge has already said, but I would hope not on a class 1 service!

 

[tomatwark]

If you do an image search on Google, there are quite few pics

Although not much from the 70's

 

[Journeyman]

108s were Heavyweights I think?

No, they were Lightweights. The 107s, based in Scotland, were the Heavyweights. Similar externally but rather more solidly constructed.

 

[delt1c]

108s were Heavyweights I think?

The re-formed 124s were used on (Hull-) Leeds-Lancaster for a number of years, but I don't recall them being used on the Carlisle line. The "fasts" were IIRC normally cl 31+4 Mk1 and ISTR there were workings from Hull.

The stopping service, when reintroduced, would have been whatever was to hand, typically 101/108 as Ash Bridge has already said, but I would hope not on a class 1 service!

108's were lightweights, heavyweights were the 107's on Scr

 

[30907]

108's were lightweights, heavyweights were the 107's on Scr

Apologies. I only associated Lightweight with the original 1954 units.

 

[Ash Bridge]

No, they were Lightweights. The 107s, based in Scotland, were the Heavyweights. Similar externally but rather more solidly constructed.

108's were lightweights, heavyweights were the 107's on Scr

Yes, the Scottish Region 107s more resembled the longer bodied Eastern Region 114s with a very similar bodyside profile which differed to that used on the 108.

 

[delt1c]

Yes, the Scottish Region 107s more resembled the longer bodied Eastern Region 114s with a very similar bodyside profile which differed to that used on the 108.

Never forget we Scots are Heavyweights

 

[Ash Bridge]

Never forget we Scots are Heavyweights

With an appetite like yours I'm not surprised!

 

[randyrippley]

by the late 1980's the Leeds-Morecambe services were usually 5-car, made up of a 101 power-twin and a 110 3-car set, though the middle carriage may have been replaced by something else
I would have assumed that any DMUs on the Settle route would have come from the same pool

 

[Taunton]

The original units were commonly known as Yellow Diamond cars, after their non-standard coupling code. Although there was a small fleet that ran for years from Carlisle around Cumbria, I'm not aware of any S&C duties for them. They did have the lightweight aluminium bodies.

From about 1957 to 1961 Derby works ran two parallel assembly lines, lightweight 108s on 57' frames, and heavyweight steel cars on 64' frames. The driving front cabs looked the same, very different to the Yellow Diamond cars, and halfway through the build they changed to the high level 4-character route indicator for both types. Most of the heavyweight cars had suburban body layouts, but the first batch, the 114s based around Lincoln, and the last batch, the 107s in Glasgow, had the Low Density layout, and the 107s were put on the short frames. It's not really apparent why this last batch were of non-standard construction, but I imagine some works production reason led to it.

 

[Journeyman]

From about 1957 to 1961 Derby works ran two parallel assembly lines, lightweight 108s on 57' frames, and heavyweight steel cars on 64' frames. The driving front cabs looked the same, very different to the Yellow Diamond cars, and halfway through the build they changed to the high level 4-character route indicator for both types. Most of the heavyweight cars had suburban body layouts, but the first batch, the 114s based around Lincoln, and the last batch, the 107s in Glasgow, had the Low Density layout, and the 107s were put on the short frames. It's not really apparent why this last batch were of non-standard construction, but I imagine some works production reason led to it.

I wonder if by the time the 107s were built there were concerns about the strength of the lightweight units? Apparently in the 80s and 90s when Regional Railways were looking at refurbishing a small batch of DMUs for continued service, the first choice was the 108s, until it was realised they were pretty flimsy - I seem to recall a couple of accidents showing them up to be alarmingly fragile. The 101s ended up being selected instead, presumably because they were more solidly constructed.

I always thought the 101s had an ahead-of-their-time look anyway, and that the cab design looked more modern than the "Derby" cab on the 108s.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I wonder if by the time the 107s were built there were concerns about the strength of the lightweight units? Apparently in the 80s and 90s when Regional Railways were looking at refurbishing a small batch of DMUs for continued service, the first choice was the 108s, until it was realised they were pretty flimsy - I seem to recall a couple of accidents showing them up to be alarmingly fragile. The 101s ended up being selected instead, presumably because they were more solidly constructed.

I always thought the 101s had an ahead-of-their-time look anyway, and that the cab design looked more modern than the "Derby" cab on the 108s.

They also didn't seem to stand up to fires too well either; without bothering to consult google wasn't there a particular bad fire on a 108 somewhere between Totnes and Plymouth (don't recall exactly where) in which the underframe completely collapsed due to the severity, in the event of a collision I think I would be happier taking my chances on a 142/3 and that's saying something! I'd have to differ with you on cab styling though, as my thoughts are that the later Derby design with 4-character headcode boxes looked far the moderner, purely personal choice of course.

 

[Journeyman]

They also didn't seem to stand up to fires too well either; without bothering to consult google wasn't there a particular bad fire on a 108 somewhere between Totnes and Plymouth (don't recall exactly where) in which the underframe completely collapsed due to the severity, in the event of a collision I think I would be happier taking my chances on a 142/3 and that's saying something! I'd have to differ with you on cab styling though, as my thoughts are that the later Derby design with 4-character headcode boxes looked far the moderner, purely personal choice of course.

Having dug about a bit, it seems that the 108s were fine when new, but the alloy construction became brittle as it aged. So...they didn't corrode, but crashworthiness deteriorated as they got older. There was a collision between two 108s at Hyde in 1990 - one of them had a class 101 centre vehicle that emerged decidedly more intact than any of the other vehicles.

Pacers have solid underframes but rather flimsy bodies, IIRC - that collision between a 142 and an electric loco on the WCML was a bit alarming.

 

[Taunton]

Pacers have solid underframes but rather flimsy bodies, IIRC - that collision between a 142 and an electric loco on the WCML was a bit alarming.

I think anything would have gone like that. There was a collision at Hexham in 1957 between a steam locomotive and brand-new 101 Met-Cam car 50173 where the loco penetrated more than half the length of the dnu car - there was a photo of it in the magazines of the time.

 

[Cowley]

They also didn't seem to stand up to fires too well either; without bothering to consult google wasn't there a particular bad fire on a 108 somewhere between Totnes and Plymouth (don't recall exactly where) in which the underframe completely collapsed due to the severity, in the event of a collision I think I would be happier taking my chances on a 142/3 and that's saying something!

Just for you Mr Bridge (not my photo).

I believe the chap who was actually driving it is a moderator on WNXX...

 

[Ash Bridge]

Many thanks for finding that Mr C, quite unbelievable the destruction there, I take it that one never made it into preservation then!....

 

[Taunton]

Other vehicles in fires looked the same. A St Pancras-Bedford car (heavyweight steel) which caught fire in a siding looked far worse than that, burned out end to end, and the remains had to be cut up where it stood. Notice in the picture it was the rearmost vehicle, no guard's compartment, so both the crew would be two vehicles ahead when it started.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Other vehicles in fires looked the same. A St Pancras-Bedford car (heavyweight steel) which caught fire in a siding looked far worse than that, burned out end to end, and the remains had to be cut up where it stood. Notice in the picture it was the rearmost vehicle, no guard's compartment, so both the crew would be two vehicles ahead when it started.

Yes in all fairness, after looking at the above shot I performed a google search and like you said there are worse examples to be found: another such being a Met Cam 101 DMBS in Scotland that was gutted from end to end with collapsed underframe, this is perhaps a silly question but were these 1st gen DMUs fitted with any form of fire alarm or even fire suppression system?

 

[dubscottie]

IIRC it was an accident at Carnforth (1988-91) that highlighted how poor the 108s were.

RR made it a priority to withdraw them asap.

Most 1st gen DMU fires were caused by the gearboxes not being reversed correctly. When a unit left a terminal station, the last car would be going full whack in reverse gear rather than forward gear.

Overheating and fire followed!

 

[jimm]

In a desperate attempt to wrest the thread back to where it started, I can offer the following.

DalesRail services in the 1970s from Yorkshire used a variety of dmu stock from Neville Hill depot in Leeds. The book On The Settle & Carlisle Route, by TG Flinders, has is a picture of a service at Garsdale in 1978 with a two-car set made up of a 101 motor brake second and a Gloucester RCW driving trailer.

The book also has a 1966 picture taken at Kirkby Stephen showing a Cravens Class 113 dmu - see https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-112/ for details of these rare and short-lived diesel-hydraulic sets - on a stopping service.

Have also come across this picture, showing a two-car 101 and a two-car 110 stabled at Appleby in 1986

https://www.derbysulzers.com/applebynorthdmu86.jpg

Another 110 at Appleby
https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/7273

There is also a video that may be of interest of a run in a dmu along the line in 1967 from Skipton to Carlisle, which features Derby-built units.

 

[Cowley]

In a desperate attempt to wrest the thread back to where it started, I can offer the following.

DalesRail services in the 1970s from Yorkshire used a variety of dmu stock from Neville Hill depot in Leeds. The book On The Settle & Carlisle Route, by TG Flinders, has is a picture of a service at Garsdale in 1978 with a two-car set made up of a 101 motor brake second and a Gloucester RCW driving trailer.

The book also has a 1966 picture taken at Kirkby Stephen showing a Cravens Class 113 dmu - see https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-112/ for details of these rare and short-lived diesel-hydraulic sets - on a stopping service.

Have also come across this picture, showing a two-car 101 and a two-car 110 stabled at Appleby in 1986

https://www.derbysulzers.com/applebynorthdmu86.jpg

Another 110 at Appleby
https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/7273

There is also a video that may be of interest of a run in a dmu along the line in 1967 from Skipton to Carlisle, which features Derby-built units.

Really interesting Jimm. I must admit that I hadn’t heard of a 112 or 113 before.
Great footage of the S&C.

 

[Taunton]

The book also has a 1966 picture taken at Kirkby Stephen showing a Cravens Class 113 dmu - see https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-112/ for details of these rare and short-lived diesel-hydraulic sets - on a stopping service.

These were based not too far away, at a depot in Accrington, and normally just covered the old L&Y lines in Lancashire. My hunch is it would get to the S&C via the Blackburn-Hellifield line. Their driving controls were different to the normal mechanical transmission cars so they would need to have a driver from one of their established depots.

 

[yorksrob]

In a desperate attempt to wrest the thread back to where it started, I can offer the following.

DalesRail services in the 1970s from Yorkshire used a variety of dmu stock from Neville Hill depot in Leeds. The book On The Settle & Carlisle Route, by TG Flinders, has is a picture of a service at Garsdale in 1978 with a two-car set made up of a 101 motor brake second and a Gloucester RCW driving trailer.

The book also has a 1966 picture taken at Kirkby Stephen showing a Cravens Class 113 dmu - see https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-112/ for details of these rare and short-lived diesel-hydraulic sets - on a stopping service.

Have also come across this picture, showing a two-car 101 and a two-car 110 stabled at Appleby in 1986

https://www.derbysulzers.com/applebynorthdmu86.jpg

Another 110 at Appleby
https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/7273

There is also a video that may be of interest of a run in a dmu along the line in 1967 from Skipton to Carlisle, which features Derby-built units.

I was on a 110 today ( on the East Lanks DMU day) and I was struck by how comfortable and well designed the interior was. The only thing it needed were some little under window tables, but I would happily travel on one along the S&C or the Calder Valley.

 

[52290]

I went on a DMU excursion over the S&C in the summer of 1959 getting onboard at Leyland and travelling to Carlisle via Bamber Bridge and Hellifield. It was a Sunday and a group of us spotters made the trip and did all three sheds in Carlisle. Was this the first time a DMU travelled over the S&C?

 

[randyrippley]

just came across this photo of a six-car 101/110 combo on Leeds-Morecambe in 1976

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_10_2017/post-5613-0-36074200-1507211131.jpg