Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

[Cardiff123]

True. Maybe they could Cascade them out of service steadily in Autumn 2019. Whilst they are in reasonable working order and there is a shortage of rolling stock this to me makes the most sense?

Have you missed the news that Northern are getting brand new DMUs from December, cascaded DMUs from elsewhere and more EMUs?
Northern's rolling stock shortage is going to be solved much quicker than TfW's, where they haven't even started modifying 36 x 150s for 2020 yet.

 

[northwichcat]

Have you missed the news that Northern are getting brand new DMUs from December, cascaded DMUs from elsewhere and more EMUs?
Northern's rolling stock shortage is going to be solved much quicker than TfW's, where they haven't even started modifying 36 x 150s for 2020 yet.

Northern still have 40 x 150s to modify, then there's 2 x 155s, 18 x 156s and 21 x 158s on top of that (not including ones away for modification): https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-unit-refurbishments.128846/page-144#post-3705585 Note: I counted quickly so those numbers might be slightly out.

There are still question marks over when further 150s will arrive from WMT and whether all the expected 150s will come from GWR, as well as when the 769s will be ready, the latter a problem affecting TfW Rail as well and having a few CAF trains available for testing doesn't automatically mean they will be ready to enter service immediately.

 

[Chester1]

Have you missed the news that Northern are getting brand new DMUs from December, cascaded DMUs from elsewhere and more EMUs?
Northern's rolling stock shortage is going to be solved much quicker than TfW's, where they haven't even started modifying 36 x 150s for 2020 yet.

Northern still have 40 x 150s to modify, then there's 2 x 155s, 18 x 156s and 21 x 158s on top of that (not including ones away for modification): https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-unit-refurbishments.128846/page-144#post-3705585 Note: I counted quickly so those numbers might be slightly out.

There are still question marks over when further 150s will arrive from WMT and whether all the expected 150s will come from GWR, as well as when the 769s will be ready, the latter a problem affecting TfW Rail as well and having a few CAF trains available for testing doesn't automatically mean they will be ready to enter service immediately.

There will be a shortage of DMUs for many years and an argument for keeping them can always be made. Pacers are politically toxic and therefore some need to start getting turned into razor blades early next year. Taking ~100 DMUs out of service at the end of next year will also look bad. The best option would be to start sending a couple of lease each week. The shortage of units has been overstated recently because Northern have recieved about 35 units so far this year and all of them have more capacity than pacers. Has any figure been put on the number of 144s going to South Wales? Could all 13 x 2 coach units be transferred? I doubt Northern will have the option to keep them if Keolis offers to sign leases until 31/12/2019.

 

[Chester1]

Have you missed the news that Northern are getting brand new DMUs from December, cascaded DMUs from elsewhere and more EMUs?
Northern's rolling stock shortage is going to be solved much quicker than TfW's, where they haven't even started modifying 36 x 150s for 2020 yet.

Northern still have 40 x 150s to modify, then there's 2 x 155s, 18 x 156s and 21 x 158s on top of that (not including ones away for modification): https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-unit-refurbishments.128846/page-144#post-3705585 Note: I counted quickly so those numbers might be slightly out.

There are still question marks over when further 150s will arrive from WMT and whether all the expected 150s will come from GWR, as well as when the 769s will be ready, the latter a problem affecting TfW Rail as well and having a few CAF trains available for testing doesn't automatically mean they will be ready to enter service immediately.

There will be a shortage of DMUs for many years and an argument for keeping them can always be made. Pacers are politically toxic and therefore some need to start getting turned into razor blades early next year. Taking ~100 DMUs out of service at the end of next year will also look bad. The best option would be to start sending a couple of lease each week. The shortage of units has been overstated recently because Northern have recieved about 35 units so far this year and all of them have more capacity than pacers. Overcrowding has has reduced since the summer. Has any figure been put on the number of 144s going to South Wales? Could all 13 x 2 coach units be transferred? I doubt Northern will have the option to keep them if Keolis offers to sign leases until 31/12/2019.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There will be a shortage of DMUs for many years and an argument for keeping them can always be made. Pacers are politically toxic and therefore some need to start getting turned into razor blades early next year. Taking ~100 DMUs out of service at the end of next year will also look bad. The best option would be to start sending a couple of lease each week. The shortage of units has been overstated recently because Northern have recieved about 35 units so far this year and all of them have more capacity than pacers. Has any figure been put on the number of 144s going to South Wales? Could all 13 x 2 coach units be transferred? I doubt Northern will have the option to keep them if Keolis offers to sign leases until 31/12/2019.

There's no commitment to ANY 144s going to South Wales, the idea of them going is just speculation. If/when Northern can spare any, it would be a way of allowing the 150s to be made compliant at a faster rate (providing there's capacity in the workshops). The 13 2-car 144s are very similar to the 143s which are a known quantity (apart from 012) but the 142s are more so. Many of Northern's 142s would be a step down in quality compared to the Welsh Pacers, but the ex-Northern Spirit ones aren't too bad.

 

[northwichcat]

Overcrowding has has reduced since the summer.

Many passengers don't see it that way on their local line, Northern's Twitter feed gets daily complaints of trains being too full for people to board.

Has any figure been put on the number of 144s going to South Wales? Could all 13 x 2 coach units be transferred? I doubt Northern will have the option to keep them if Keolis offers to sign leases until 31/12/2019.

Northern have leased the 142s, 144s and 153s until 31/12/2019 with the option to return early if replacement units are in 'unrestricted revenue earning service.' They aren't going to Wales if Northern don't have those replacement units in service.

The shortage of units has been overstated recently because Northern have recieved about 35 units so far this year and all of them have more capacity than pacers.

Yet the franchise was let on the basis Northern would have all the 170s, all the 319s and the WMT 150s in revenue earning service before they started releasing Pacers. Plus they are behind with refurbishments due to getting GWR 150s late. I don't think the 2 x 158s arriving early make up for the absence of 8 x 769s (in lieu of 319s) and the 3 x 150s. There's also rumours Northern might have to sublease some of the 170s to TPE!

 

[Cardiff123]

Northern still have 40 x 150s to modify, then there's 2 x 155s, 18 x 156s and 21 x 158s on top of that (not including ones away for modification): https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-unit-refurbishments.128846/page-144#post-3705585 Note: I counted quickly so those numbers might be slightly out.

There are still question marks over when further 150s will arrive from WMT and whether all the expected 150s will come from GWR, as well as when the 769s will be ready, the latter a problem affecting TfW Rail as well and having a few CAF trains available for testing doesn't automatically mean they will be ready to enter service immediately.

Well you paint a pretty dire picture. TfW, Northern, and EMT at least should start lobbying the government now for the PRM deadline to be pushed back to 1/1/2022 at least, because if what you're saying is true, there's no way the 2020 deadline will be met.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Well you paint a pretty dire picture. TfW, Northern, and EMT at least should start lobbying the government now for the PRM deadline to be pushed back to 1/1/2022 at least, because if what you're saying is true, there's no way the 2020 deadline will be met.

They'll just apply for derrorgations and lock the toilets out of use.

 

[Cardiff123]

They'll just apply for derrorgations and lock the toilets out of use.

Welsh Govt and Ken Skates personally have already unequivocally ruled that out when the idea was floated in the Welsh media back in the spring.

 

[td97]

Would make sense for withdrawals to ramp up in May. The 37/MkII finishes at the start of next year, so there may only be a minor net gain with the Scotrail cascades.
But as of May: full EMU timetable for Bolton services, a chance Northern will have decided which routes they want to send the 170s on, more 195s and 331s delivered, and the ScotRail cascaded 156s and 158s. Hardly a bleak outlook

 

[LOL The Irony]

Welsh Govt and Ken Skates personally have already unequivocally ruled that out when the idea was floated in the Welsh media back in the spring.

The Welsh government definitely doesn't have juristiction over Northern and EMT.

 

[Cardiff123]

The Welsh government definitely doesn't have juristiction over Northern and EMT.

Well it should have been pretty obvious I wasn't saying or didn't mean that. Jeez lets not start another anti-Welsh argument in this thread.

 

[Coolzac]

Interesting views all round! We'll just have to wait and see. I wonder if Northern at some point will release an exit timetable for them, maybe early next year? It's interesting as I feel like their withdrawal has a political edge as to many they are a symbol of the underinvestment of railways up north. This increases pressure to publically announce when they will be withdrawn. Part of me suspects they will just reply with a bland 'They will be withdrawn in 2019'.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well you paint a pretty dire picture. TfW, Northern, and EMT at least should start lobbying the government now for the PRM deadline to be pushed back to 1/1/2022 at least, because if what you're saying is true, there's no way the 2020 deadline will be met.

The problem there would be that as soon as the deadline is moved, the pressure is off and work slows down... before you know it, you're in the same position two years down the line.

Considering the furore over TPE using Mk3s, I'd say the chance of extending the PRM deadline is somewhere between zero and diddly-squat.

 

[Mogster]

Wigan to Alderley Edge short formed again this morning. At least we have a 156 rather than a 150.

From first hand experience the short forming and overcrowding West of Manchester doesn’t seem to be improving. The most concerning thing is there doesn’t seem to be any sign of capacity being expanded, just replacements for the existing stock. The most these peak time services have is 4 cars when Northern should be moving towards 6 or even 8. 2 car peak time services really shouldn’t be happening.

 

[yorksrob]

They could try hanging onto the 144's and just say it was the 142's they were talking about. I'm sure passengers would feel that a 144 is more similar to a normal train rather than a bus seat pacer.

 

[Buspilot]

Northern Fail website showing 71 short formed services today.

 

[Cardiff123]

Wigan to Alderley Edge short formed again this morning. At least we have a 156 rather than a 150.

From first hand experience the short forming and overcrowding West of Manchester doesn’t seem to be improving. The most concerning thing is there doesn’t seem to be any sign of capacity being expanded, just replacements for the existing stock. The most these peak time services have is 4 cars when Northern should be moving towards 6 or even 8. 2 car peak time services really shouldn’t be happening.

They could try hanging onto the 144's and just say it was the 142's they were talking about. I'm sure passengers would feel that a 144 is more similar to a normal train rather than a bus seat pacer.

Wales has exactly the same problems. Borders services are particularly badly affected by short forms at the moment.
Tomorrow, there are even cancellations and reduced services on many lines because TfW simply doesn't have enough trains, with plenty of bustitution in place.
It seems in Wales and Northern land "we are all in this together"

 

[Tringonometry]

Northern Fail website showing 71 short formed services today.

Can't get wheelsets turned round quickly enough, I suspect.

Usual problem at this time of year.

 

[northwichcat]

Wales has exactly the same problems. Borders services are particularly badly affected by short forms at the moment.
Tomorrow, there are even cancellations and reduced services on many lines because TfW simply doesn't have enough trains, with plenty of bustitution in place.
It seems in Wales and Northern land "we are all in this together"

So tomorrow TfW Rail are a set down for North Wales to Manchester Airport and Northern will have trains sat around spare due to no guards to work them. The solution is apparently to terminate all North Wales to Manchester Airport services at Manchester Oxford Road with passengers told to use EMT and TPE for onward travel. :roll:

 

[SC43090]

Wales has exactly the same problems. Borders services are particularly badly affected by short forms at the moment.
Tomorrow, there are even cancellations and reduced services on many lines because TfW simply doesn't have enough trains, with plenty of bustitution in place.
It seems in Wales and Northern land "we are all in this together"

I agree with the above statement...... We have had Goverments of all colours in the last 25 years or so & all they've been bothered about is the south look at whats happend all the slam doors trains have been replaced.... Southern have almost had all new trains.... Thames link had new trains starting with the 319 emu units in the mid to late 1980's then had 377 emus now they've been replaced by 700 class of emus & they are 12 carriages etc etc.... While we in the north get cast of dmu's & emu's & only a 55 new dmu's & only 43 new emu's..... That just shows you how much goverments of all colours care about the north....... Why cannot we have new units to replace the 150 / 1 & 2s & the 156 units... If it was down south it would have happend by now......

 

[sprinterguy]

I agree with the above statement...... We have had Goverments of all colours in the last 25 years or so & all they've been bothered about is the south look at whats happend all the slam doors trains have been replaced.... Southern have almost had all new trains.... Thames link had new trains starting with the 319 emu units in the mid to late 1980's then had 377 emus now they've been replaced by 700 class of emus & they are 12 carriages etc etc.... While we in the north get cast of dmu's & emu's & only a 55 new dmu's & only 43 new emu's..... That just shows you how much goverments of all colours care about the north....... Why cannot we have new units to replace the 150 / 1 & 2s & the 156 units... If it was down south it would have happend by now......

The Southern slam door stock was significantly older than the Pacers and Sprinters in the north, and there was a deadline to be met in replacing them. Train replacement is cyclical: The vast swathes of slam door stock that were replaced primarily by Electrostars in the early 2000s were over 30 years old, while the Provincial sector undertook massive wholesale investment in Pacer and Sprinter trains in the mid to late eighties that means all of these fleets are only just now reaching that same age and becoming due for withdrawal.

The north also saw the replacement of it's slam door class 101 and loco-hauled stock around Manchester and on the North Wales coast by class 175 units just after the millennium. The then-newly formed Transpennine Express franchise procured new class 185 units to replace class 158s that were far from life expired and have gone on to improve the passenger experience on other routes.

The class 700 trains primarily replaced the 1980s class 319 units that you refer to, and were necessary to both increase capacity and permit Automatic Train Operation through the Thameslink core. Note also that there are still large blocks of inner suburban services across the former Network Southeast area that are served by large fleets of seventies and eighties vintage EMUs that are older than anything operating in the north of England (barring HSTs with LNER/EMT), and are only just coming up for replacement in the next couple of years.

 

[northwichcat]

The Southern slam door stock was significantly older than the Pacers and Sprinters in the north, and there was a deadline to be met in replacing them. Train replacement is cyclical: The vast swathes of slam door stock that were replaced primarily by Electrostars in the early 2000s were over 30 years old, while the Provincial sector undertook massive wholesale investment in Pacer and Sprinter trains in the mid to late eighties that means all of these fleets are only just now reaching that same age and becoming due for withdrawal.

The north also saw the replacement of it's slam door class 101 and loco-hauled stock around Manchester and on the North Wales coast by class 175 units just after the millennium. The then-newly formed Transpennine Express franchise procured new class 185 units to replace class 158s that were far from life expired and have gone on to improve the passenger experience on other routes.

The class 700 trains primarily replaced the 1980s class 319 units that you refer to, and were necessary to both increase capacity and permit Automatic Train Operation through the Thameslink core. Note also that there are still large blocks of inner suburban services across the former Network Southeast area that are served by large fleets of seventies and eighties vintage EMUs that are older than anything operating in the north of England (barring HSTs with LNER/EMT), and are only just coming up for replacement in the next couple of years.

It's worth remembering EMUs are supposed to last longer than DMUs. The final 101s were in much urgent need of replacement than the slam door electric stock down south. It ended up being 2004 when the north saw it's slam door loco-hauled sets being withdrawn - there was the ATN set, as well as there being a loco-hauled set reintroduced in 2004 so that 2 x 158s could be loaned to TPE, after the FNW loco hauled stock had been withdrawn in 2003.

 

[sprinterguy]

It's worth remembering EMUs are supposed to last longer than DMUs. The final 101s were in much urgent need of replacement than the slam door electric stock down south. It ended up being 2004 when the north saw it's slam door loco-hauled sets being withdrawn - there was the ATN set, as well as there being a loco-hauled set reintroduced in 2004 so that 2 x 158s could be loaned to TPE, after the FNW loco hauled stock had been withdrawn in 2003.

"Over 30 years old" was an all encompassing term that described the youngest of the Southern slam door stock that was replaced: The oldest, the class 411 4-CEPs, lasted 49 years in service. There also weren't a great number of class 101s left in service around Manchester after the millennium, outdated as they undoubtedly were.

The ATN and FNW loco-hauled services were isolated examples where loco hauled stock was reintroduced for a short time on a small scale to cover for unit shortages; they were not established, large scale operations.

My main point was that there is no political conspiracy to retard rail development in the north of England compared to the south.

 

[northwichcat]

"Over 30 years old" was an all encompassing term that described the youngest of the Southern slam door stock that was replaced: The oldest, the class 411 4-CEPs, lasted 49 years in service. There also weren't a great number of class 101s left in service around Manchester after the millennium, outdated as they undoubtedly were.

The ATN and FNW loco-hauled services were isolated examples where loco hauled stock was reintroduced for a short time on a small scale to cover for unit shortages; they were not established, large scale operations.

My main point was that there is no political conspiracy to retard rail development in the north of England compared to the south.

Although the South (not including the South West) didn't get cheap and simple solutions like Pacers and 155s cut in half.

 

[Coolzac]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...passengers-disruption-will-continue-until-may

Surely with a ''Horrendous' shortage of diesel trains at Northern, surely withdrawing Pacers should be left til the last possible moment now, with even maybe a request to extend the deadline? Surely this is common sense?

 

[td97]

"In our earlier planning we were looking at starting to decommission the Pacers now, but we haven't been able to do that. We need to keep hold of them until we feel we have a robust service."

Their commitment to get rid of the Pacers by 2020 stands, he promised.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-rail-trains-overcrowding-manchester-15523286

 

[Coolzac]

I see. End date still the same, but I wonder when they will start to withdraw them?

 

[6Gman]

I'd rather sit on a Pacer than stand on something newer ...

 

[John Taylor]

142026 missing seats today on Teeside Airport Train, looks like a couple of yobs have took them.
142063 on Carlisle to Middlesbrough service.