Question about the Stadler Flirt trains.

[swt class 450]

I just had a question about the Stadler Flirt trains that are found in Mainland Europe.

The current model sold all over Mainland Europe is known as the "Flirt 3" but as far as i am aware there has only ever been one previous model (which must either be the "Flirt 1" or "Flirt 2" model). The "Flirt 3" appears to only be the second version. So my question is what is the missing third one? And is the original version the "Flirt 1" or the "Flirt 2"? Was the other type some sort of prototype train or something like that? Or is the "Flirt 3" actually just the second model and they have for some reason decided to skip a number (either skipping "Flirt 1" or "Flirt 2")?

Here are some photos i found online to show the difference between the two types:

Original type (either the Flirt 1 or Flirt 2):

• https://flic.kr/p/yDo9Bw

• https://flic.kr/p/211W6HC

• https://flic.kr/p/GifFd8

• https://flic.kr/p/21gUviq

Current type (Flirt 3):

• https://flic.kr/p/SJHyg1

• https://flic.kr/p/JoD62a

• https://flic.kr/p/NLyEkr

• https://flic.kr/p/Zj6usG

Many thanks for any information regarding this.

 

[AlexNL]

Stadler have never used the "FLIRT 2" branding, they just called it FLIRT. The FLIRTs delivered to Norway (NSB Bm74 and Bm75) and Sweden (MTR Express X74) can be considered a FLIRT 2: there's a clear visual distinction between those units, the FLIRTs built until then, and the 3rd generation which came later.

Picture shows two generations of FLIRT side by side: a FLIRT1 of SBB (class 522) and FLIRT2 of NSB (class Bm74) in Rorschach, Switzerland.

Picture by Peider Swiss Trip, source: 4rail.net

 

[TRAX]

I’ve asked myself the same question never to find an answer.

@AlexNL: There are more than 3 Flirt designs so not sure this qualifies to solve the issue.

 

[AlexNL]

There are many design variations. Low floor/high floor, toilet/no toilet, door types, those kind of things. Those variations all belong to the same platform. The FLIRT platform is pretty modular, so Stadler can build and deliver them quickly. The trains will all have a similar TMS, for example.

In theory, components are interchangeable between trains from the same platform. In reality there will of course be constraints, a DC traction package is pointless in a train for Germany. With the advent of a new generation, a redesign takes place which makes the new train incompatible with the previous generation.

I think that the FLIRT2 hasn't been sold much outside the Nordics, because mainland customers were still buying the FLIRT1. Then the regulations (TSIs) were tightened, leading to the need to redesign the cab (crashworthiness) as well as other systems (noise, electrical usage) so the FLIRT3 was born.

 

[TRAX]

So what exactly makes you think the Scandinavian Flirts are the Flirts 2 ?

 

[swt class 450]

Thank you for the information. Much appreciated. The more i look in to this the more confusing it gets.

It makes sense if the Scandinavian one is the Flirt 2 although i can't seem to find any documents calling it that. When was this model released? Was this model released before the Flirt 3? If so then it is even more likely that it is officially the Flirt 2.

Its interesting how the Scandinavian one (Flirt 2) has a completely different body (if you look at the sides you will see what i mean) but the Flirt 1 and Flirt 3 only have a different front but the sides and the rest of the train are pretty much the same. I wonder why they went for such a different design just for these.

There is other types of them as well. Like for example Belarus has two Stadler Flirt trains that look completely different to any others (but they also have 16 normal Stadler Flirt 1 trains as well). And then there is a different intercity version of the Flirt 1 and Flirt 3 which Leo Express and PKP Intercity have purchased which seem to have shorter carriages. And to confuse it even more SOB in Switzerland (and BLS have some on order) have some ones that look quite similar to the new Abellio Greater Anglia ones here in the UK

There seems to be at least 8 different models:

• Flirt 1 Suburban - https://flic.kr/p/yDo9Bw

• Flirt 1 Intercity - https://flic.kr/p/27vWsjk

• Flirt 2 Scandinavian - https://flic.kr/p/9qCSAD

• Flirt 3 Suburban - https://flic.kr/p/SJHyg1

• Flirt 3 Intercity - https://flic.kr/p/RSEwtD

• Flirt Belarus - https://flic.kr/p/29KiLgq

• Flirt Switzerland - https://flic.kr/p/2boLweN

• Flirt United Kingdom - https://flic.kr/p/2bYXDTB

I presume the Belarus and Switzerland and UK versions don't have numbers (unless possibly they could be the Flirt 4 and Flirt 5 and Flirt 6)?

Can i also ask what is the new Flirt 3 style Stadler Kiss referred to as (which replaced the original Flirt 1 style Stadler Kiss)? Is this the Kiss 3 as well or just the Kiss 2?

There seems to be at last 5 different models:

• Kiss 1st type Suburban - https://flic.kr/p/24DGa21

• Kiss 1st type Intercity - https://flic.kr/p/26sc6sn

• Kiss 2nd type Suburban - https://flic.kr/p/27zndFS

• Kiss 2nd type Intercity - https://flic.kr/p/2bpu9Em

• Kiss Azerbaijan/Georgia/Russia - https://flic.kr/p/22gK5B2

I am not sure what the Azerbaijan/Georgia/Russia version is referred to as (although it seems that possibly Stadler Kiss trains are not numbered at all)?

Finally can i ask what is the difference between the Stadler GTW and the new Stadler Wink? Is the Wink simply a GTW using the new Flirt 3 style body (as it seems that Stadler have still been continuing to produce GTWs with the Flirt 1 style body)?

Many thanks.

 

[TRAX]

There is no Kiss numbering. It used to be called DOSTO (and still is in Sweden as Kiss means ‘pee’).

It seems body gauge has an effect on the visual design of the Flirt/Kiss trains (see the differences on the larger width Scandinavian and Russian trains).

Stadler presents the GTW as a regional train and the Wink as a local train. I’m sure there is more to it but they aren’t very clear about it.

 

[AlexNL]

So what exactly makes you think the Scandinavian Flirts are the Flirts 2 ?

Because they have a different front shape while being on the same 1435mm gauge as their Swiss brethren.

There is no official documentation on this though, Stadler simply refers to them as FLIRT. They don't have a FLIRT2 anywhere in their references.

Stadler seem to have also stopped referring to the 3rd generation of their FLIRT as FLIRT3, their website simply calls it a FLIRT nowadays. They do distinguish between various designs: the FLIRT160 is the 160 km/h version intended for regional trains, while the FLIRT200 (with a distinctive nose) is destined for intercity travel.

The FLIRT UK is a bespoke design for the British market (due to the narrow gauge) as is the version for the Belarusian railways (due to the broad gauge).

https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/products/

 

[TRAX]

Scandinavian trains are wider though.

 

[duesselmartin]

Rather funny that kiss means pee in n Swedish.
Explains why Kiss&Ride parking stinks in some places.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rather funny that kiss means pee in n Swedish.
Explains why Kiss&Ride parking stinks in some places.

You have a FLIRT, then maybe a KISS, but if it doesn't go well you go home and have a...WINK?

(I hate to think what will be next...)

 

[AlexNL]

WINK, FLIRT, KISS, SMILE...

Up next: the Komfortabeler Intercity Doppelstock Schnellzug

 

[TRAX]

There’s also the Tango tram/tram-train.

WINK, FLIRT, KISS, SMILE...

Up next: the Komfortabeler Intercity Doppelstock Schnellzug

 

[squizzler]

WINK, FLIRT, KISS, SMILE...

Up next: the Komfortabeler Intercity Doppelstock Schnellzug

The Reverend Audrey books left younger readers woefully unprepared for what goes on behind the Swiss train sheds...

 

[axlecounter]

I don’t think you really can compare FLIRTs by how they look and call different looks “models”. The look and type of construction are given by a number of factors other than the internal Stadler-given model number.
As others have said FLIRT is a platform onto which Stadler builds the train according to TSI norms (which partly give the “new” front), national norms and obviously the customer desires and needs. The latter can give for example different shorter or longer carriages, because of client’s requests (number of doors per side for example) and also because the possible width of a carriage is a consequence of the chosen length. One wants high floor,one low, one both... France for one has specific crash-norms who give a peculiar and different (longer) front which you won’t find anywhere else I believe.

Configuring a new train like a FLIRT is not like configuring a new car, where you choose a model and you more or less stick with what they give you. The choices here are much more and offer a lot more possibilities.
That said, you could try to kindly ask Stadler directly, the might give you at least a partial answer...

 

[Groningen]

In the Netherlands Flirt 3 runs on Zwolle - Kampen and Zwolle - Enschede. Numbering: 3 coaches 7301-7309 and 4 is 7401-7407.

Source: Wikipedia

 

[Gordon]

There is no such thing as a Flirt 1, 2, 3 etc

And trying to designate by shape is a non starter as the design is modular and variable - witness the fact that soon there will be very big Flirts operating on the 'Nordic' loading gauge networks, and very small Flirts operating in East Anglia...

The current range of Stadler products and product names is clearly shown on their website:
https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/products/


.

 

[TRAX]

Yeah they don’t use that denomination anymore.