Transport for Wales to Introduce Penalty Fare Scheme Birmingham International to Shrewsbury

[Gareth Marston]

Currently being consulted on - (apologies cut and paste job no link).

Penalty Fare Consultation Document
The purpose of this document is to outline our proposal to introduce Penalty Fares between Shrewsbury and
Birmingham International. Transport for Wales Rail invites comment from stakeholders for consideration by our
Revenue Protection team. All comments will be collated and considered prior to implementing Penalty Fares on this
part of the Wales and Borders Railway and we will respond within 14 days of receipt.
Why?
There is an inherent problem with fare evasion on routes within the Wales and Borders network leading to lost
revenue to the detriment of the vast majority of honest fare paying passengers. On the route between Shrewsbury
and Birmingham International (via Birmingham New Street) there are inconsistent approaches made by the variety
of TOCs who operate services there. West Midlands Trains for example already use penalty fares as a deterrent on
the route whereas other operators do not. As a new operator of the Grant Agreement with the Welsh Government,
we feel it is right to be consistent with other operators. This scheme will generate a more consistent approach for all
operators and promote inter -TOC collaboration to counter fare evasion.
Where?
For the purposes of this scheme, the following stations will be penalty fares stations.
Shrewsbury Shifnal Billbrook Birmingham International
Wellington Cosford Wolverhampton
Oakengates Albrighton Smethwick Galton Bridge
Telford Central Codsall Birmingham New Street
When?
Penalty Fares are scheduled to be introduced on Sunday 6th January 2019 although we will implement what we call a
‘soft launch’ on 1st December 2018. This will enable our revenue protection staff to offer helpful advice on ticket
purchase and provide ample warnings of the pending penalty fare scheme. This period of grace will not negate the
National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCOT), we will simply not issue a penalty fare during this period.

I can provide full document if you PM me.

 

[Clip]

Sounds sensible.

Queue a few pages of people bemoaning such a scheme

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another one

TBH I think we will end up with a national rollout soon enough.

One question that the unions probably need to raise is the effect on commission for guards with a switch to TVMs being the primary ticketing method.

 

[Kite159]

Another one

TBH I think we will end up with a national rollout soon enough.

One question that the unions probably need to raise is the effect on commission for guards with a switch to TVMs being the primary ticketing method.

Don't give them any more reason for striking

As for the Transport for Wales line, as there is already a penalty fare scheme in place for that line, all it will probably need is to put a "TfW Rail" sticker on the signs. But think of the poor 'pay when challenged' customers from Telford having to pay for their fares when travelling towards Wolverhampton

 

[Gareth Marston]

Another one

TBH I think we will end up with a national rollout soon enough.

One question that the unions probably need to raise is the effect on commission for guards with a switch to TVMs being the primary ticketing method.

I believe the conductors were on something like 2 %. That's one hell of a lot of CDR's on a Saturday to make any worthwhile amount from. Which of course you only have a few minutes to do before door duty.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Don't give them any more reason for striking

As for the Transport for Wales line, as there is already a penalty fare scheme in place for that line, all it will probably need is to put a "TfW Rail" sticker on the signs. But think of the poor 'pay when challenged' customers from Telford having to pay for their fares when travelling towards Wolverhampton

The biggest probleim was/is Virgin not having barriers at Wolverhampton and to an extent Birmingham International. There's barriers on the way for Wolves now WMT have taken it over. I once saw a group of 20 to 30 year olds have the colour drain from there faces when a Machynlleth conductor came round just out of Wolverhampton on a quite evening service. They'd clearly got in from Telford avoiding payment and of course the singles they asked for were almost the same price as the returns.

 

[Kite159]

The biggest probleim was/is Virgin not having barriers at Wolverhampton and to an extent Birmingham International. There's barriers on the way for Wolves now WMT have taken it over. I once saw a group of 20 to 30 year olds have the colour drain from there faces when a Machynlleth conductor came round just out of Wolverhampton on a quite evening service. They'd clearly got in from Telford avoiding payment and of course the singles they asked for were almost the same price as the returns.

And New Street is a bit of a gamble sometimes if all the various gatelines are in operation.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

All comments will be collated and considered prior to implementing Penalty Fares

That's a forgone conclusion not a consultation!
Surely it should be 'comments will be collated and considered prior to a decision being made on whether to implement Penalty fares?
Not much time between now and the soft launch to do all that collating and considering!
So long as they understand passengers commencing before Shrewsbury cannot be PF'd, even if changing onto the train at Shrewsbury.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

Great news ! Loads of telford - wolves and wellington. - telford passengers never in possession of a ticket.

Only problem is you got less than 5 minutes to dispatch, make an announcement before it’s next stop time.

At the risk of sounding extreme, anybody using public transport should have to produce a mandatory ID card.

This would enable quick penalty fares and enable train companies to combat fare evasion.

To many time you waste 10 minutes ring through and finding the passenger not registered at the address.

 

[Darandio]

At the risk of sounding extreme, anybody using public transport should have to produce a mandatory ID card.

Extreme? Yeah, just a bit.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

Extreme? Yeah, just a bit.

The upfn process is so much weighted in the passengers favour it a joke.

Any address as long as it’s valid ??

Call the btp for giving wrong details and they openly say ‘ you don’t want me to get involved’ just give him your address etc !!! Then the address is wrong and they give them the ‘this is your last chance’ speech.

It’s like the police turning up to a bank robbery and saying put the cash back and give your details for the cost of the vault and it’s a civil matter !!!!!

I may need to talk to a therapist lol

 

[Darandio]

The upfn process is so much weighted in the passengers favour it a joke.

Any address as long as it’s valid ??

Call the btp for giving wrong details and they openly say ‘ you don’t want me to get involved’ just give him your address etc !!! Then the address is wrong and they give them the ‘this is your last chance’ speech.

It’s like the police turning up to a bank robbery and saying put the cash back and give your details for the cost of the vault and it’s a civil matter !!!!!

I may need to talk to a therapist lol

There needs to be more emphasis on making either making sure people cannot board a train without a valid ticket, or make the penalties even more severe for those who do purposely give out false information.

I realise the above is probably completely unrealistic, but the vast majority of us buy tickets and have no intention of evading a fare. I shouldn't have to produce a mandatory ID card when popping into town on the train.

 

[Merseysider]

At the risk of sounding extreme, anybody using public transport should have to produce a mandatory ID card.

Nope.

Next.

 

[Starmill]

At the risk of sounding extreme, anybody using public transport should have to produce a mandatory ID card.

This would enable quick penalty fares and enable train companies to combat fare evasion.

This is completely ridiculous and would lead to even fewer people using public transport.

Don't you think that the Railway Byelaws, which give the train companies far more power than most other companies to punish their own customers for theoretical breaches of rules, are enough of a deterrent? Then again, many train companies would much rather people go by car because there is simply no more space onboard their trains.

 

[Starmill]

The upfn process is so much weighted in the passengers favour it a joke.

This thread is about Penalty Fares. Unpaid Fares Notices are not the same thing.

It’s like the police turning up to a bank robbery and saying put the cash back and give your details for the cost of the vault and it’s a civil matter !!!!!

Most companies frequently pursue allegations of fare evasion as a criminal matter, so I'm not quite sure what you mean here?

Call the btp for giving wrong details and they openly say ‘ you don’t want me to get involved’ just give him your address etc !!!

I have had a VT train manager ask the police to speak to me after incorrectly claiming that my ticket wasn't valid; let me tell you this is about as far away from what they said as you could get. I was forced to do what the train manager wanted by the instructions given to me by said police officer. Of course, he was wrong and the company was later forced to admit that, apoligise, and compensate me. But the idea that the police will not get involved in ticket disputes is not true.

 

[sheff1]

I was forced to do what the train manager wanted by the instructions given to me by said police officer. Of course, he was wrong and the company was later forced to admit that, apoligise, and compensate me.

Hopefully you got compensation from the police as well.

 

[Starmill]

Hopefully you got compensation from the police as well.

Sadly I didn't get anything from them at all, not even an acknowledgement that they had acted less well than they should have. But that is rather off topic, except to say that some BTP officers absoultely can and will intervene in ticket disputes, even if they have no knowledge of ticket validity (I doubt very much that any railway revenue matters are included in their standard training?).

 

[Westcoast-ting]

The similarities between upfn’s and penalty fares are that you can give false details. Add this to the time it takes to ring through and confirm the address and for on train staff they will have very little effect.

This is completely ridiculous and would lead to even fewer people using public transport.

Don't you think that the Railway Byelaws, which give the train companies far more power than most other companies to punish their own customers for theoretical breaches of rules, are enough of a deterrent? Then again, many train companies would much rather people go by car because there is simply no more space onboard their trains.

The byelaws are not a deterrent if you give false details and don’t care.

The railway needs to spend more resources tackling the persistent offenders, and this thread is a step towards this.

As a earlier poster said the bigger issue is the lack of barriers at wolves. This never seemed high on vt’s agenda but when WMT did it a few months back it made an absolute fortune.

Starmill- I assume you didn’t want to give your details to the tm because you knew your ticket was right ?
So the police was called and they told you too ??
Isn’t this the best cause of action ? This way your not out of pocket, the train company can identify a gap in their knowledge and issue guidance for staff ? They then have your details to offer apologies and compensation ??

 

[sprunt]

Starmill- I assume you didn’t want to give your details to the tm because you knew your ticket was right ?
So the police was called and they told you too ??
Isn’t this the best cause of action ? This way your not out of pocket, the train company can identify a gap in their knowledge and issue guidance for staff ? They then have your details to offer apologies and compensation ??

No; the best course of action is for the TOC to train their ticketing/revenue staff appropriately in the first place (why would the TOC have a gap in their knowledge?) and for their passenger not to be put in a position that requires recompense. Given the cost incurred by the TOC in compensating the wronged passenger, I'd have thought it would be in their best interest too, unless revenue gained by incorrectly penalising people with valid tickets is part of their business plan.

 

[Starmill]

Details may be required if one is suspected of committing a Byelaw offence.

As it happened the BTP officer wasn't interested in my details, only in having me removed from the train.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Going off thread a bit here folks.

Its about a PF scheme between Birmingham International & Shrewsbury.

 

[Starmill]

Going off thread a bit here folks.

Its about a PF scheme between Birmingham International & Shrewsbury.

The claim was made that these Penalty Fares aren't effective because the police won't get involved in enforcement of revenue matters. It's sensible then to point out that this isn't always correct. I'm aware of at least three other incidents where the BTP have become involved. You can expect them to simply believe whatever the railway staff tell them about ticket validity too, since as far as I know they don't recieve their own training.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Details may be required if one is suspected of committing a Byelaw offence.

As it happened the BTP officer wasn't interested in my details, only in having me removed from the train.

Of note, there is a requirement for the suspicion to be reasonable. It is not clear whether this means that the suspicion the person requiring the details has, must be reasonable to an objective bystander, or whether it has to be reasonable from their subjective perspective.

In either case, if a passenger tries to explain how a ticket is valid and yet the train staff will not listen at all, I would put forward that it is less likely that a suspicion of breach of Byelaw 18 could be justified as reasonable.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The claim was made that these Penalty Fares aren't effective because the police won't get involved in enforcement of revenue matters. It's sensible then to point out that this isn't always correct. I'm aware of at least three other incidents where the BTP have become involved. You can expect them to simply believe whatever the railway staff tell them about ticket validity too, since as far as I know they don't recieve their own training.

1.7 Billion journeys a year are made on the mainland overground UK rail network - how many of these involve any sort of dispute at all let alone BTP involvement? A fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent?

The point of the PF area and at last having barriers at Wolverhampton is that it will deter all the little Miss and Mister Pay When Challenged brigade mainly from the Telford area. It will stamp out a very high percentage of ticket-less travel on that corridor.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

No; the best course of action is for the TOC to train their ticketing/revenue staff appropriately in the first place (why would the TOC have a gap in their knowledge?) and for their passenger not to be put in a position that requires recompense. Given the cost incurred by the TOC in compensating the wronged passenger, I'd have thought it would be in their best interest too, unless revenue gained by incorrectly penalising people with valid tickets is part of their business plan.

This is near impossible, it would require retail briefs every time a new product is added, then I assume tested to ensure they fully undersatand. Staff would constantly be off trains or booking offices.

My opinion is the btp push for details to be given so it’s kept as a civil dispute.

This renders any system where the address is required without proof to be open to abuse. The btp know this I’ve even said ‘can I give you 1 Buckingham palace’ as an address, to which I was told as long as you know the post code !!

So to keep it relevant, for this to have an impact on the route it would need to be policed off train by revenue blockades at stations

 

[sprunt]

This is near impossible, it would require retail briefs every time a new product is added, then I assume tested to ensure they fully undersatand. Staff would constantly be off trains or booking offices.

Tough. Get more staff then. Stop using (ill-informed) police enforcement against innocent people as a business model. If that's impossible, simplify the fare and ticketing structure so that it's possible for the company, never mind the passengers to understand.

 

[Starmill]

1.7 Billion journeys a year are made on the mainland overground UK rail network - how many of these involve any sort of dispute at all let alone BTP involvement? A fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent?

So what? You created the thread to discuss Penalty Fares, presumably? If not then what did you want to be discussed here? The point about the police was then raised and I pointed out that these interactions vary. This seems very reasonable to me.

This is near impossible, it would require retail briefs every time a new product is added

Is this not what already happens? This is absolutely the bare minimum neccesary.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

Yes, retail briefs are posted all the time. Very few people have the time to read them, nobody gets tested on them and because if this there are of little importance.

Every week there is a new ticket that breaks every rule before it. We now have standard class tickets which are flexible but the reservation is on a train in first class. So it’s valid !!!!!!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Yes, retail briefs are posted all the time. Very few people have the time to read them, nobody gets tested on them and because if this there are of little importance.

Every week there is a new ticket that breaks every rule before it. We now have standard class tickets which are flexible but the reservation is on a train in first class. So it’s valid !!!!!!

The fact that the ticketing system is complicated and constantly changing is not an excuse for a passenger being prosecuted under Byelaw 18. It therefore definitely shouldn't be an excuse for people who work in the industry not knowing it!

 

[Westcoast-ting]

The fact that the ticketing system is complicated and constantly changing is not an excuse for a passenger being prosecuted under Byelaw 18. It therefore definitely shouldn't be an excuse for people who work in the industry not knowing it!

Who’s been prosecuted ?

If you think that any ticket trained member of staff had the time or resources to know every easement or restriction then you don’t live in the real world !

That being said rail staff should take an approach that if not 100% sure the ticket in invalid to let it go.