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Why hasn't there been an explosion in commuter coaches this year?

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Teflon Lettuce

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I was just reading the Thameslink thread and got thinking... considering the ongoing meltdown and disruption on Thameslink how comes there hasn't been a move by bus/ coach companies to revive short haul coach services into London, especially commuter coaches.

IIRC the boom in commuter coaches in the mid 80's was driven by disruption on the railways caused by unending industrial action... so what is different 30 yrs later that the bus/ coach companies aren't interested?
 
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PeterC

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The main problem with the 80s services from the prospective traveller's point of view was that most ran at a very limited range of times with only one or two journeys each way. Fine only if you worked a rigid 9 to 5 shift or somewhere that would tolerate clock watching.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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The main problem with the 80s services from the prospective traveller's point of view was that most ran at a very limited range of times with only one or two journeys each way. Fine only if you worked a rigid 9 to 5 shift or somewhere that would tolerate clock watching.
and yet for many yrs they were very successful... until the railway got it's act together... which is why I posed the question... large segments of the railway have been in meltdown for nearly 6 months now and yet there doesn't seem to be any increase in commuter coaches... as to your point about 9-5 working... well the coaches in the 80's were timed around City working times
 

Man of Kent

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Increasing traffic congestion and unpredictable journey times mitigate against commuter coach services - plus, despite this years travails, the railways offer a massively better service than they did even 15 years ago. There's also the matter of getting a TfL London Service Permit.
The remaining successful commuter coaches are those that offer something railways can't - primarily direct journeys from suburban Kent to Canary Wharf. They eliminate both the journey to the home station (and im the case of the Medway Towns, this can easily be three miles away) and the third leg from central London to Canary Wharf.
Expect some slimming down when Crossrail finally opens.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Increasing traffic congestion and unpredictable journey times mitigate against commuter coach services - plus, despite this years travails, the railways offer a massively better service than they did even 15 years ago. There's also the matter of getting a TfL London Service Permit.
Do you need a permit for a commuter coach? I thought you only needed one for a service that picks up AND drops down within London on the SAME journey...
 

Busaholic

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The finances of running a peak commuter coach journey into central London are rarely encouraging. You might get a fullish coachload in the morning peak, but then when you arrive there'll be little or no return passengers. Even if you went straight back out of service to Bedford, Cambridge or wherever you'd be way too late to provide another journey in. That's why most surviving commuter coach services lay over in central London (often at Battersea) to await the p.m. peak return working, also to keep within drivers' hours (some operators do get some other work out of their coaches and drivers in between times). A cash cow it is not, particularly when you take into account that coach passengers usually expect to pay a lot less than train passengers.
 

radamfi

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My work colleague uses the Hemel Hempstead Green Line service, usually using the peak only service via the City. However, I suspect they are feeling the pinch as they regularly replace the coach with a double decker.
 

Mwanesh

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My work colleague uses the Hemel Hempstead Green Line service, usually using the peak only service via the City. However, I suspect they are feeling the pinch as they regularly replace the coach with a double decker.
Its not that way.The coaches keep breaking down thats why they use the double deckers instead .
 

radamfi

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Its not that way.The coaches keep breaking down thats why they use the double deckers instead .

But why don't they maintain the vehicles properly or have spare coaches? Either way, this suggests they are running the service on a shoestring.
 

duncombec

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Many operators are having a difficult enough time running commuter coaches, let alone all day services. They are often cheaper than the trains for a peak return, but the cost of providing a coach service doesn't really go down in the off peak, where it is then more expensive than the train fare. That also introduces, re-introduces or drastically expands the amount of cash handling done on board coaches, which then means drivers can be responsible for it all day in London. You certainly wouldn't want to take a family on a coach with no child fares available!

The single biggest cause though is traffic, and the resulting unreliability. Many of us regular passengers already take the timetable with a heavy dose of salt - not because the companies are not trying, but because the situation changes from one day to the next. Long term roadworks appear with little or no warning. Monument junction was heavily restricted and all but closed for 6 months for "emergency" gas main works. Then Fenchurch Street was closed for 6 weeks for more "Emergency works" having been open little more than a month. On Friday (26th), Cannon Street was listed for reopening on Sunday 28th after a month's closure. Come yesterday morning, still closed, and the date has suddenly extended for a further month. How can you not know on the day it was due to reopen that you were that far behind? That's before we get to Thames Tunnel, Cycle Superhighways, Uber, planned and unplanned demonstrations in Westminster, accidents, the vagaries of the Blackwall Tunnel, etc. Upon completion of the recent Aldgate gyratory works, all commuter coaches had their permission to stop there and at Aldgate East revoked (on penalty of fines for doing so), because going from two bus stops to one meant there were too many vehicle movements in the morning peak. One of the most useful interchange points removed at a stroke!

Drivers are not easy to come by, and many who are trained simply cannot take the long days (if there are delays, this can take them to the very end of their permitted working hours for the day, usually with no advance warning and requiring staff to be shuffled to ensure services can be covered the following day).

All Commuter services run on LSPs - most, if not all, that run through Canary Wharf have local fares between there and the city. TfL have a different regulatory program to the Traffic Commissioners, requiring 90 days notice rather than 56/70. Despite showing up on TfL's journey planner, there is no real notes (at least not where anyone reads them) that the services do not take any payment form other than cash, and they are often not treated like "red" buses (e.g. permission to use the right turn from Lower Thames Street into Eastcheap).

In sum, the situation just isn't there any more unless you have a large pit of money and lots of patient passengers. I'm surprised those services from the north of London (757, 758, etc.) still run during the day as often as they do.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Many operators are having a difficult enough time running commuter coaches, let alone all day services. They are often cheaper than the trains for a peak return, but the cost of providing a coach service doesn't really go down in the off peak, where it is then more expensive than the train fare. That also introduces, re-introduces or drastically expands the amount of cash handling done on board coaches, which then means drivers can be responsible for it all day in London. You certainly wouldn't want to take a family on a coach with no child fares available!

The single biggest cause though is traffic, and the resulting unreliability. Many of us regular passengers already take the timetable with a heavy dose of salt - not because the companies are not trying, but because the situation changes from one day to the next. Long term roadworks appear with little or no warning. Monument junction was heavily restricted and all but closed for 6 months for "emergency" gas main works. Then Fenchurch Street was closed for 6 weeks for more "Emergency works" having been open little more than a month. On Friday (26th), Cannon Street was listed for reopening on Sunday 28th after a month's closure. Come yesterday morning, still closed, and the date has suddenly extended for a further month. How can you not know on the day it was due to reopen that you were that far behind? That's before we get to Thames Tunnel, Cycle Superhighways, Uber, planned and unplanned demonstrations in Westminster, accidents, the vagaries of the Blackwall Tunnel, etc. Upon completion of the recent Aldgate gyratory works, all commuter coaches had their permission to stop there and at Aldgate East revoked (on penalty of fines for doing so), because going from two bus stops to one meant there were too many vehicle movements in the morning peak. One of the most useful interchange points removed at a stroke!

Drivers are not easy to come by, and many who are trained simply cannot take the long days (if there are delays, this can take them to the very end of their permitted working hours for the day, usually with no advance warning and requiring staff to be shuffled to ensure services can be covered the following day).

All Commuter services run on LSPs - most, if not all, that run through Canary Wharf have local fares between there and the city. TfL have a different regulatory program to the Traffic Commissioners, requiring 90 days notice rather than 56/70. Despite showing up on TfL's journey planner, there is no real notes (at least not where anyone reads them) that the services do not take any payment form other than cash, and they are often not treated like "red" buses (e.g. permission to use the right turn from Lower Thames Street into Eastcheap).

In sum, the situation just isn't there any more unless you have a large pit of money and lots of patient passengers. I'm surprised those services from the north of London (757, 758, etc.) still run during the day as often as they do.
Thanks for your comprehensive answer... it does explain a lot..

To answer your question on how the 757 has survived I can answer that in 2 words... Luton Airport. The demographic of people using coaches are the most likely demographic to use a budget airline like Easyjet
 

A0

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My work colleague uses the Hemel Hempstead Green Line service, usually using the peak only service via the City. However, I suspect they are feeling the pinch as they regularly replace the coach with a double decker.

Hemel's one of those places where the coach can be competitive - because the railway station is right out on the west-side of the town whereas the bulk of the housing is on the east side heading back towards the M1. Add in the coach can serve places like Brent Cross en route.
 

Statto

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Talking about the Greenline Hemel service, the journeys that serves the estates, looks like you then have to change coaches on the Town Centre to get to London, although there is 1 through service timetabled in.
 

Deerfold

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Have you lot ever been on a coach? Awful cramped things, 0/10 would not recommend. I'd rather suffer and die a death using Thameslink than willing subject myself to a coach journey every day. :lol:

Are you particularly tall? Although I'd prefer a train if I've got a seat, I use coaches from time to time. But I only ever use them to/from London for long distance journeys as travelling through London is the main factor slowing them down.

I even briefly used the Maidenhead to London commuter coach. It worked well for me as after trailing round the estates I used to get on it one stop before it got on the M4.
I used it as at the time the train service was appalling - I'd be more than an hour late at least once a week in one direction (on a 25 minute rail journey before switching to tube).
However, initially there were only 3 services a day each way. If you were ever to miss the last one, the single for the train would wipe out your savings for the week. This dropped to 2 and then 1 a day before disappearing completely. One of the problems was it only really worked if you never socialised in London - as soon as you went for a drink after work or popped into London at the weekend the finances no longer favoured the coach (unless you're looking at the 702/757 type).

Anyone thinking of taking advantage of the current disruption will bear in mind it's not likely to be long lasting so would have to weigh up investing in vehicles and drivers for what might be a relatively short period (and it'd take a while for people to find out about and start using it).
 

carlberry

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I don't recall there being much industrial action on the railways in the 80s
There was plenty and NBC would regularly duplicate/triplicate Express departures with any vehicle that was available, no matter how inappropriate for a long journey!
 

padbus

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There was plenty and NBC would regularly duplicate/triplicate Express departures with any vehicle that was available, no matter how inappropriate for a long journey!
Indeed. I remember seeing West Midlands Metrobuses in Exeter.
 

A0

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Talking about the Greenline Hemel service, the journeys that serves the estates, looks like you then have to change coaches on the Town Centre to get to London, although there is 1 through service timetabled in.

Usually that's just a timetabling thing to get around the silly restrictive hours problem one of the EU regs introduced - which led to a number of services being 'broken' into two or three shorter services. A similar thing can be seen on the Northampton - Peterboro Stagecoach X4 service.
 

Bletchleyite

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Usually that's just a timetabling thing to get around the silly restrictive hours problem one of the EU regs introduced - which led to a number of services being 'broken' into two or three shorter services. A similar thing can be seen on the Northampton - Peterboro Stagecoach X4 service.

Hopefully Brexit will kill off this particular piece of (Goverment-endorsed) stupidity. Talk about applying the letter rather than spirit of the rules...
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Hopefully Brexit will kill off this particular piece of (Goverment-endorsed) stupidity. Talk about applying the letter rather than spirit of the rules...
I'm sure that and blue passports will make it all worthwhile ;)

I don't recall there being much industrial action on the railways in the 80s
1982 was the nadir of strikes. There was a long dispute with ASLEF over flexible rostering and it did wonders for National Express with, such as the examples mentioned Hants & Dorset VRs heading up to London etc. That dispute cost BR £210m and with other strikes, BR lost £350m in total!
 

duncombec

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It's an easy hit on the EU. To be honest, it was the DfT who a) didn't identify it as something needing a derogation and they then b) faffed about in the interpretation and guidance.

Quite. Commuter Coaches are also affected by our own legislation, namely the requirement to stop every 15 miles to qualify for whatever we currently call BSOG. This means those from the Medway Towns having to stop at a suspiciously placed bus stop between the on and off sliproads of the Black Prince Interchange at Bexley, for a handful of passengers a day (if that). Of course, when there are major problems on the A2, this requires either "doubling back" or complex alternative arrangements to be made.

Whilst it obviously may not work for inter-urban bus services such as the X4 mentioned above, I'm surprised 755/757/758 services are not worked under EU rules anyway, making the change of number/coach works through notes redundant.
 

Bletchleyite

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The funny thing about BSOG stops is that they can become useful. The Stagecoach 99 (MK-Luton Airport) stops at the back of the Kingston Centre in MK (not the main interchange stop there) and just off the M1 in Luton. These two stops are actually, as it turns out, the busiest at certain times of day due to people commuting to/from jobs in the warehouses in MK.
 

duncombec

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Thanks for your comprehensive answer... it does explain a lot..

To answer your question on how the 757 has survived I can answer that in 2 words... Luton Airport. The demographic of people using coaches are the most likely demographic to use a budget airline like Easyjet

I could have gone on, but didn't want to write an essay! I can only comment as a passenger, but I get the distinct impression that TfL (and its predecessor organisations) seems to consider commuter coaches, and indeed LSP services in general, as irritations rather than useful additions to the overall network. Support seems patchy and regulation seems heavy-handed. Commuter coaches barely received a mention in the assessment for the Cycle Superhighway, for example, only that journey times 'may' (read: definitely will) be 'slightly' (read: extensively) extended. Making things better for existing services within TfL land seems to run second fiddle to attempting to take over rail services well beyond the mayor's electoral remit.

The eastbound stop on Lower Thames Street at Cannon Street: the e-plates are out of date, and the timetables in the case are at least two years out of date. At least three services have been withdrawn, almost every other service changed, and a good quantity don't even have a timetable to begin with.

Luton Airport... doh!
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Quite. Commuter Coaches are also affected by our own legislation, namely the requirement to stop every 15 miles to qualify for whatever we currently call BSOG. This means those from the Medway Towns having to stop at a suspiciously placed bus stop between the on and off sliproads of the Black Prince Interchange at Bexley, for a handful of passengers a day (if that). Of course, when there are major problems on the A2, this requires either "doubling back" or complex alternative arrangements to be made.

Whilst it obviously may not work for inter-urban bus services such as the X4 mentioned above, I'm surprised 755/757/758 services are not worked under EU rules anyway, making the change of number/coach works through notes redundant.
The 755/757 are operated under EC rules
 
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