Lord Berkeley suggests off lease multiple units could be used for city centre freight

[Meerkat]

In RAIL magazine, Lord Berkeley is stated to say that younger passenger trains going off lease could be the answer for city centre freight.

Anyone think this is really practicable? Issues that come to my mind...

Can you knock big holes in the side of modern(ish) stock to create forklift sized doors?

Are there paths for them after the evening peak and before NR want the lines for maintenance? (I am assuming Express inter city freight would be late night...)

Are there facilities for it, either depots or wide station platforms with road access?

Is there really a market? Plenty green points for electric vans delivering to electric trains but the big operators have well developed networks so maybe it would require a disruptive new entrant.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Didn't someone try something similar using ex motor rail vehicles running as a trial from Rugby to Euston? If nothing came of the trial why would anything be different now?

 

[w1bbl3]

It depends on what your shipping, direct to consumer/retail type freight is late night dispatch for earlier morning arrival at depot / logistics hub for morning van to consumer loading. This somewhat difficult with overnight maintenance possessions and partially why royal mail initially dropped mail by rail in the 00's.

Rail as a parcels freight carrier is probably around daytime services outside of peak where the customer doesn't expect next day delivery which is a remarkably small market or for a "new" courier type service of same day evening deliveries of goods ordered that morning.

Business to Business freight is mostly pallet / truck load and something needs specially designed units also is generally not taken directly into city centres.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Didn't someone try something similar using ex motor rail vehicles running as a trial from Rugby to Euston? If nothing came of the trial why would anything be different now?

Colas operated, can't remember who it was for. Vans are now at Canton

 

[D9009Spotter]

Just going back to the original quote when it was said can you knock holes in the side of a coach. I believe the motorail vans that were at Rugby (now canton) were ex standard Mk1s? Plus if FGW could convert a load of buffet mark 3s to standard vehicles or composite cars then surely it can't be much more of a stretch to put those doors on?

 

[sjoh]

It depends on what your shipping, direct to consumer/retail type freight is late night dispatch for earlier morning arrival at depot / logistics hub for morning van to consumer loading. This somewhat difficult with overnight maintenance possessions and partially why royal mail initially dropped mail by rail in the 00's.

Rail as a parcels freight carrier is probably around daytime services outside of peak where the customer doesn't expect next day delivery which is a remarkably small market or for a "new" courier type service of same day evening deliveries of goods ordered that morning.

See, I don't think this idea is that absurd. The number of times I've waited around for deliveries that come well past the time I need to leave for work, I'd actually much rather have a delivery made in the evening where I'm much more likely to be in and not needing to go somewhere.

Whilst I'm not sure of the need for any parcels to be brought into a city centre (especially London), I can perhaps see the logic in using places like Stratford or East Croydon as mail railheads... These locations aren't suitable for freight in the traditional sense, but there may be space to deal with a small goods loaded EMU.

In terms of the market for it, I think it's worth keeping in mind that the last time this was trialed was in the early days of Amazon Prime, if not before...

 

[3141]

To make this work, there would have to be a network of road vehicles to pick up the parcels and deliver them to their final destinations. Also some kind of sorting system, either at the railhead or on the train. Delivery companies already have their systems and networks, so they would want to work out whether getting their parcels to the departure railhead, sending them by train and distributing them from the arrival railhead would be quicker and cheaper, or not. It has to offer a financial advantage to the users; they aren't going to be convinced just because the scheme makes use of rolling stock that would otherwise be left in sidings.

 

[LAX54]

To make this work, there would have to be a network of road vehicles to pick up the parcels and deliver them to their final destinations. Also some kind of sorting system, either at the railhead or on the train. Delivery companies already have their systems and networks, so they would want to work out whether getting their parcels to the departure railhead, sending them by train and distributing them from the arrival railhead would be quicker and cheaper, or not. It has to offer a financial advantage to the users; they aren't going to be convinced just because the scheme makes use of rolling stock that would otherwise be left in sidings.

Ahhh,,,,,, we could call it RED STAR ?

 

[Robertj21a]

See, I don't think this idea is that absurd. The number of times I've waited around for deliveries that come well past the time I need to leave for work, I'd actually much rather have a delivery made in the evening where I'm much more likely to be in and not needing to go somewhere.

Whilst I'm not sure of the need for any parcels to be brought into a city centre (especially London), I can perhaps see the logic in using places like Stratford or East Croydon as mail railheads... These locations aren't suitable for freight in the traditional sense, but there may be space to deal with a small goods loaded EMU.

In terms of the market for it, I think it's worth keeping in mind that the last time this was trialed was in the early days of Amazon Prime, if not before...

Delivery companies need confidence in meeting their stated tight delivery schedules. I can't see how rail would consistently provide any such reassurance given the problems of staff disputes, strikes, OHL failures etc etc.
Road will always provide far greater flexibility.

 

[twpsaesneg]

It sounds like a solution looking for a problem. I have lived in city centres and very rural areas, and I can get stuff from package to palletload size delivered to me next day from multiple companies who use the variety of pretty efficient couriers we now have.

Why would any of the established couriers want to have the expense and inconvenience of adding 2 further handling points where a parcel can be damaged or lost into their networks, or pay to relocate their delivery hubs to a rail served and therefore more expensive site?

Red Star was great but relied upon essentially "free" travel on existing passenger services.

The fact that even Royal Mail despite having a number of dedicated terminals and existing facilities at mainline stations pulled out of the rail sector save the reestablished class 325 operations shows the inefficiency of it.

Save for very specialised flows such as the fish from Penzance that I believe is coming to an end now I can't ever see rail transport of parcels / freight at palletload / wagonload level coming back.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Delivery companies need confidence in meeting their stated tight delivery schedules. I can't see how rail would consistently provide any such reassurance given the problems of staff disputes, strikes, OHL failures etc etc.
Road will always provide far greater flexibility.

When was the last time freight went on strike? Or was this just an opportunity to slate staff and unions again?

Incidentally, Royal Mail feel it's reliable enough to send parcels between the North and London on a nightly basis

 

[RichmondCommu]

When was the last time freight went on strike? Or was this just an opportunity to slate staff and unions again?

Incidentally, Royal Mail feel it's reliable enough to send parcels between the North and London on a nightly basis

Perhaps the poster was referring to Network Rail staff who might choose to go on strike.

 

[Carlisle]

Incidentally, Royal Mail feel it's reliable enough to send parcels between the North and London on a nightly basis

Having had to endure several 3 hour or more delays the summer due to overnight closures of the M6 jct 16-19 I can certainly believe they’ll be occasions when rail is the best option .

 

[doningtonphil]

Every time I am on a train on the Trent Valley section of the West Coast Main Line and pass TNT's headquarters (and one of 3 sortation hubs in the Midlands) I wonder how possible it would be to use the WCML for their Scottish domestic Freight (depots at Bellshill, Paisley, Edinburgh Airport,Inverness) - international freight flies in to Edinburgh.

With at least 2 articulated coming down form and going up to each depot every night there is a lot of road traffic. However that also means flexibility. If one of those linehauls is delayed/misses a connection then only a small fraction of the freight is affected (although you could guarantee that the uber urgent item you needed would be on it!). However, if all eggs were in one basket - a multiple unit, which failed was diverted or was delayed it could cause havoc for their reputation.

I would think that an updated version of Red Star parcels would be more practical. There is a big market for items being dropped off at convenience stores, lockers outside of petrol station etc. Could the current rail network be used to ditribute to stations as pick up points?

 

[Royston Vasey]

Incidentally, Royal Mail feel it's reliable enough to send parcels between the North and London on a nightly basis

Reliable nightly demand for thousands of items transported with an efficient fully depreciated asset, with an established terminal infrastructure to handle them in, is quite far removed from modifying clapped out diesel units to run a speculative courier service only able to reach stations and sidings needing onward road transport anyway!

We aren't disagreeing. The risk and effect of unguaranteed first class mail being delayed to a second day is fairly low, and the road transport network could and I'm sure does pick up the slack in case of any traction problems, engineering issues or a dispute.

Guaranteed bespoke courier services is totally different

No market for this. It was called Red Star Parcels and failed even when we had loco haulage and brake vehicles/MPVs. Next someone is going to suggest using old pacers to pick up small loads of freight then join them all up on the mainline and then split to different destinations... Oh no that was called Speedlink and that failed too!

 

[Leo1961]

Isn't the future going to be electric delivery vans that drive themselves from source to destination, allowing the customer access to the goods via a security code sent via electronic means?

 

[uww11x]

I may be going off the city centre theme with this,

I think the concept could work for standard shipping (3-5 Days waiting time) Most things I order online start in the Midlands and are driven up the motorway to Carlisle and then onwards.

Not sure if anything could be done to Carlisle Yard to allow more truck/van access? Most of the big couriers are based in Kingmoor Park in the area. Would it be financial viable after paying a railway firm etc though?

 

[daikilo]

Isn't the future going to be electric delivery vans that drive themselves from source to destination, allowing the customer access to the goods via a security code sent via electronic means?

An in-city requirement to use, possibly small, electric vehichles could be the catalyst to look at alternative ways to flow goods from major distribution centres to shops.

As to the use of redundant EMUs, most goods travelling in artics or containers are actually on pallets which would fit through the double doors of lost EMUs. The only issue I could see would be sidewall profile and whether there is space for side-by-side pallets with a rectangular section to the top.

That said, most high-volume shops are not in city centres and split deliveries to multiple shops are notoriously difficult to organise.

 

[PeterC]

EMUs with double leaf doors and the seats removed could easlily take small parcels loaded in roll cages similar to those used for supermarket deliveries which are a little smaller and lighter than the old BRUTE trolleys.

Many things that I order are trunked from a collection centre to a delivery centre so I don't see a theoretical issue about using rail for the trunk haul. The problem is that all the old city centre handling facilities put in place for mail and newspaper traffic have long since been repurposed. It would need both stick and carrot to get the courier firms to relocate and probably the loss of a few station car parks to provide room for handling facilities.

 

[Bookd]

The point is reliability.
I had a friend, now deceased, who claimed to be responsible in part for the end of overnight newspaper trains when he was in charge of circulation for News International. At that time the papers were a hotbed for lightning strikes and delays which could mean their print run was late, and by the time the papers were taken to Kings Cross, Euston or wherever they had often missed the train. His argument was that as the trains were mainly run for the benefit of the papers in the first place the train should have been delayed until the papers arrived.
He told me that he had a number of arguments with rail management after which from his view things would improve for a few days and then be back to normal.
One one occasion he warned that the next time his papers missed the train it would be the last; when it did happen again the following day a fleet of lorries were assembled to do the job and he never used rail again.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The point is reliability.
I had a friend, now deceased, who claimed to be responsible in part for the end of overnight newspaper trains when he was in charge of circulation for News International. At that time the papers were a hotbed for lightning strikes and delays which could mean their print run was late, and by the time the papers were taken to Kings Cross, Euston or wherever they had often missed the train. His argument was that as the trains were mainly run for the benefit of the papers in the first place the train should have been delayed until the papers arrived.
He told me that he had a number of arguments with rail management after which from his view things would improve for a few days and then be back to normal.
One one occasion he warned that the next time his papers missed the train it would be the last; when it did happen again the following day a fleet of lorries were assembled to do the job and he never used rail again.

More complicated than you think - the "train loaders" at key stations in London were in very short supply at the best of times , and were often augmented by other staff (even booking office staff) who were in need of cash and came in to earn a few extra quid at antisocial hours.

There were real issues within the newspaper industry with very often short term stoppages at the print places to put pressure on their management to pay even more than they earned , - any delays in loading and depatching from Fleet Street were then forced onto the railway , which then had to juggle their own train crews and pathing etc down line. Yes - there were other trains around as well as night engineering works.

The whole thing was awfully unproductive - short (but cherished) paper trains to many places - Ramsgate and Ashford comes to mind - Oxford etc - and of course the rolling stock returned in daylight hours to that big city (including Manchester) , having been shunted and remarshalled in sidings. Empty of course.

Having said that - it was wonderful to see the dynamics of Paddington at midnight - vans emblazened "Daily Mirror" etc , screeching in at some risk to the public - reversing in haste against some grubby vans and bundles flying everywhere , in an atmosphere of haste and bad language. I am very glad I saw it.

 

[squizzler]

Meanwhile in Italy: Video Mercialia Fast: inside Italy’s new high speed freight train

 

[JayDee]

I can't see a logical reason for it to be honest, Windhoff experimented with the cargo sprinter 20 years ago for a similar purpose and it didn't work. The market simply isn't there or the cost justified from running across unless for big bulk orders.

I believe the goods yard that opened a few years back in Burton upon Trent handles shipping containers to warehouses nearby, ensuring bulk shipment of products cut down their carbon footprint considerably.

That seems like a far more likely "local" freight solution, a small yard to a nearby warehouse district usng containers than faffing around with MUs trying to fit stuff in by chucking the seats out. Even the Italian fast freight above seems to be between two distribution sites and the loading looks very awkward.

 

[jagardner1984]

Sorry to open an old topic but I do think this could be revisited in the "Amazon" age. I was driving the M8 Glasgow to Edinburgh this morning and was struck by lines upon lines of trucks for Hermes, Yodel, Royal Mail, Parcelforce.

It won't work everywhere, but using the "Amazon locker" principle, could you not install collection / pickup lockers in, for example Glasgow Central, Birmingham, Euston. Trial a service of an old EMU which you strip out entirely (or coaches and a loco, that isn't really the point). Fit fold down ramps inside each of the doors to allow simple platform unloading.

• Load pickups from Euston "lockers" at 2200
• Stop at Wembley rail freight terminal (or some other location near the WCML where you can get a platform for an hour and truck access) and load say 100 roll cages from various couriers, who have deposited them earlier.
• Stop at New Street around midnight, unload some cages for pickup / distribution to lockers / collect others.
• Run to Glasgow Central around opening time (0400), unload some cages for locker distribution.
• Run to Polmadie by about 0500 (or some other location near the WCML where you can get a platform for an hour and truck access). Allow various couriers to collect and distribute to customers via Road.
• Run a service in the opposite direction.

It seems to me this has little overnight impact as there is already access for the sleeper. It seems to me there is a lot of mid life stock coming off lease. It seems to me there is phenomenal demand from the online retailers for something like this.

The idea doubtless needs refining (from someone who knows what they are on about !), but I cannot believe in 2019, the most efficient way we have of moving container size boxes of mail is via dozens of diesel run lorries. Rail really should be able to offer a cheaper alternative than dozens of lorry drivers being paid to drive London-Glasgow or Midlands-Glasgow parcel freight nightly.

As the idea develops, there are clear opportunities for other routes. I see this as a way of tackling trunk traffic rather than delivery to customers, though mainline stations seem really obvious places for parcel lockers. Over time there could be opportunities for the rail courier service to take on the deliveries of the trunk parcel traffic to the courier depots. Using Glasgow as an example, all of the major couriers are located within about 10-15miles of each other east of the city. There are clear fleet cost savings to those companies.

If there isn't a "green transport" grant to support the development of some idea like this, there damn well should be !

 

[Bald Rick]

Parcel logistics works on very specific timings. Whilst there may well be dozens of lorries doing London to Scotland each night, they will be starting at and finishing at different depots, and/or at different times to fit in with the feeders in and out of the hubs. The time taken to consolidate and load the parcels into a (say) 8 car train, and then unload the other end, and then get them to and from the relevant distributors hub would be far too long for the whole process. It would only work if the trains went direct to a logistics hub, and then which distribution company gets the first stop?

The Railnet system that Royal Mail had in the 90s was designed specifically for hub to hub rail transport to cut out the transshipment.

 

[smsm1]

I see the train parcels fitting in with the recent rise of cycle couriers. Having delivery and collection points closer to the city centres will fit well with this type of delivery. I can see them being used between the peaks, so you can send something in the morning, to go an an intercity middle of the day train, and then it be delivered in the late afternoon/evening. Or send something in the evening to be delivered the following morning or afternoon, with cycle couriers or electric vehicles in each town/city.

I also see the electric traction being a draw to couriers or shipping companies wanting to reduce the use of the internal combustion engine for longer journeys.

 

[Bald Rick]

I see the train parcels fitting in with the recent rise of cycle couriers. Having delivery and collection points closer to the city centres will fit well with this type of delivery. I can see them being used between the peaks, so you can send something in the morning, to go an an intercity middle of the day train, and then it be delivered in the late afternoon/evening. Or send something in the evening to be delivered the following morning or afternoon, with cycle couriers or electric vehicles in each town/city.

I also see the electric traction being a draw to couriers or shipping companies wanting to reduce the use of the internal combustion engine for longer journeys.

Fanciful I’m afraid.

Firstly cycle couriers have been around for as long as I can remember, I wouldn’t say they are a recent phenomenon. They typically used for very high value or very rapid deliveries, typically documents, to get across big cities. You don’t see cycle couriers delivering clothes from boohoo.com.

The rise of parcel logistics in recent years is not ‘point to point’ flows, but warehouse to delivery hub to point. The only chance rail has is on the warehouse to delivery hub, and note that both of these will need to be rail connected and have a flow sufficient to support a train load.

The need to deliver as quickly and efficiently as possible will always be the overriding concern for delivery companies. The method of propulsion is irrelevant. If rail is quicker and cheaperon balance, then it has a chance.