East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

[davyp]

Especially if linking airports is the eventual goal where you need to be somewhere at a specific time. Trains usually guarantee a timetable and that for me is peace of mind.

Trans Pennine Express don't seem to do this reliably. They are often stopping short at Manchester Piccadilly rather than going through to Manchester Airport as timetabled if the train is running a bit late!

 

[richieb1971]

What Christmas WCML blockage? The nationalrail website only mentions a reduction in services to West Midlands, Manchester and North Wales, nothing about Euston/MKC being closed

All seems to make sense. Apart from lowering some cables there isn't much which would disrupt the main line. You could do 2 lines at a time since there is a median between the fast and slows.

 

[The Planner]

What Christmas WCML blockage? The nationalrail website only mentions a reduction in services to West Midlands, Manchester and North Wales, nothing about Euston/MKC being closed

25th 26th December is a de facto block. I expect they can get it done in 54 hours.

 

[work-traveller]

What Christmas WCML blockage? The nationalrail website only mentions a reduction in services to West Midlands, Manchester and North Wales, nothing about Euston/MKC being closed

The Christmas Day/Boxing Day shut-down.

 

[gordonthemoron]

The Christmas Day/Boxing Day shut-down.

which isn't actually a blockade, the Christmas shutdown happens every year

 

[work-traveller]

which isn't actually a blockade, the Christmas shutdown happens every year

How interesting

 

[si404]

If the road goes through Winslow its effects will be felt as far away as Wendover

I think the lack of an Aylesbury bypass and the distance beyond Aylesbury to actually get to the new road will stop that being the case. I doubt much Aylesbury traffic would use it (OK, those north or west edges of the town might, especially given the lack of bypass to get quickly across), given corridor B, and for traffic that would additionally have to drive through Aylesbury to get there...

There's zero reason to use the E-W expressway vs going existing routes to get to the M40 or M1 from south/east of Aylesbury - it will be slower regardless of traffic. The only bit that might be of any use is a south of Oxford route.

All the A roads will see a build up of traffic that will quickly overwhelm the new road.

Because there's massive demand for people to make journeys via that road? Seems like it's worth building then...

Of course, build the railway and make it decent (electrification from day 1 was a forlorn hope that came from basically one guy at the DfT whose 'Electric Spine' concept has long since been scrapped), but it shouldn't be either/or.

I'd argue that, because they put the road along corridor B rather than serve Aylesbury traffic, they view the Bicester-Bletchley corridor along the railway as important. That only makes sense if the railway itself is seen as important, else they would have gone via the large town.

 

[Andyjs247]

Hydrogen powered trains are on the cards for EWR, according to Radio 2 this morning.

However it doesn’t help connectivity between existing electrification. Barring Chiltern all the main lines that EWR will connect are already electrified.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Hydrogen powered trains are on the cards for EWR, according to Radio 2 this morning.

However it doesn’t help connectivity between existing electrification. Barring Chiltern all the main lines that EWR will connect are already electrified.

We don't do joined up thinking, or anything else in the UK

 

[si404]

TBF, EWR trains will mostly travel on unelectrified railway, so something like Hydrogen is not that terrible an idea.

It's only Reading-Didcot (-Oxford), Bletchley-Milton Keynes and through Cambridge where EWR services would run along these electrified mainlines. Barring potential XC services, of course.

 

[Chonner]

Phil Hammond just announced "£20m towards further developing EWR Central Section" in the Budget speech, exact phrasing in the budget document is:

"4.93 East West Rail – A new East West Rail company has been established to accelerate the delivery of the central railway section between Cambridge and Bedford. The government is providing a further £20 million to develop a strategic outline business case for the railway. This will explore which routes best support the government’s vision to unlock up to 1 million new homes by 2050. (51)" - Source

 

[Andyjs247]

TBF, EWR trains will mostly travel on unelectrified railway, so something like Hydrogen is not that terrible an idea.

It's only Reading-Didcot (-Oxford), Bletchley-Milton Keynes and through Cambridge where EWR services would run along these electrified mainlines. Barring potential XC services, of course.

I’d be really interested to know the relative cost of hydrogen powered trains vs conventional electrification. I agree it is not a terrible idea, but something maybe better suited to branch lines rather than a 100mph mainline route - thinking of future XC and connecting services. We really don’t do joined up thinking in the UK.

And if there is a route that could be wired for a decent price it should be EWR which is being rebuilt from scratch before trains start running. It might be possible to share grid feeders with HS2 for example.

News item from BBC South Today - Oxford tonight available on iPlayer if you’re quick...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bp12vl/south-today-oxford-evening-news-29102018

 

[InTheEastMids]

I think any hydrogen announcement for EWR is a sop to Oxford, Cambridge and Milton Keynes Council who all have air quality and smart energy agendas and would be vocal about (presumably 2nd/3rd hand) DMUs chugging into their urban centres? There would need to be at least one H2 fuelling point somewhere. At least some of the Northern England H2 proposals have a feasible idea about waste hydrogen, steam methane reforming, CCS and so on. Are they proposing a power-to-gas rig for Bedford Caudwell Road depot?

 

[johnnychips]

They are kicking the can down the road. There are, what, about two hydrogen train prototypes planned in the UK and no infrastructure. £20M might buy you a few necessary level crossing modifications.

A couple of extra diesel trains an hour really shouldn't cause apoplexy in Oxford (unelectrified) and Cambridge (Norwich and Stansted trains).

This sounds like 'digital signalling' that will solve Manchester's problems but with even less proven technology.

 

[gallafent]

A couple of extra diesel trains an hour really shouldn't cause apoplexy in Oxford (unelectrified)

Hmm, no, they shouldn't. If you think they won't, though, then perhaps you haven't been following the saga of the (now completed) upgrade between Oxford and Bicester, in particular focused on the section between Oxford and Oxford Parkway.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Hmm, no, they shouldn't. If you think they won't, though, then perhaps you haven't been following the saga of the (now completed) upgrade between Oxford and Bicester, in particular focused on the section between Oxford and Oxford Parkway.

I haven't been following it. Please give us a rough outline.

 

[DarloRich]

privileged NIMBYS

 

[hwl]

privileged NIMBYS

Who were very very good at complaining. Two or the best (comedy) submissions were from Oxford Engineering professors with gardens backing on to the line. Their claims which were demolished in the inquiry with the simple "were'e rebuilding the line from the sub-base upwards so everything you say is irrelevant"...

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Who were very very good at complaining. Two or the best (comedy) submissions were from Oxford Engineering professors with gardens backing on to the line. Their claims which were demolished in the inquiry with the simple "were'e rebuilding the line from the sub-base upwards so everything you say is irrelevant"...

Thank you. Now you've mentioned them, I recall hearing something about that before. I didn't take it seriously and, it seems, the inquiry didn't either!

 

[hwl]

Thank you. Now you've mentioned them, I recall hearing something about that before. I didn't take it seriously and, it seems, the inquiry didn't either!

It was even funnier if you knew them both before they were professors and how they would have marked their own submissions if it had been their student's work...

 

[Ianno87]

It was even funnier if you knew them both before they were professors and how they would have marked their own submissions if it had been their student's work...

Intriguing if the professors basically assumed they wouldn't be outsmarted by anybody...

 

[hwl]

Intriguing if the professors basically assumed they wouldn't be outsmarted by anybody...

Neither understand rail well (Polymers and opto-electronics backgrounds) so the submissions were filled with anything they could think of that they though would read ok. It may just have been an attempt to point out the condition of the exciting track was bad and force a complete rebuild which was the plan anyway (but get it set in stone as a requirement by the inquiry) but the stated position was along the lines of we moved in next to a lightly used railway it isn't fit for greater use so no change please.

 

[richieb1971]

If they ran any train at all I would be happy. Lets get the rails down and see whats available after that. We are still years away from completion of the Western section.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If they ran any train at all I would be happy. Lets get the rails down and see whats available after that. We are still years away from completion of the Western section.

If only it was the simple matter of "get the rails down" then life indeed would be simplistic, but small ancilliary matters such as associated signalling works, etc, cannot be disregarded.

 

[richieb1971]

It was a figure of speech. Railway first, trains later. Does it matter if we run DMUs for 6 months followed by hydrogen trains after that?

 

[DaveN]

I might have missed something but.....

Re the TWAO for Phase 2 of the Western Section. Didn't the period for objections end on 7th September ?

According to https://assets.publishing.service.g...file/273359/twa-orders-summary-guide-2013.pdf :

<quote>
Q18 What happens after the end of the objection period?
If there is no opposition to the application, the Secretary of State can proceed to give his or her decision.

If an application has opposition, the Secretary of State must decide, within 28 days of the end of the objection period, whether to hold a public inquiry or a hearing, or whether to carry out ‘exchanges of written representations’ between everyone involved. These different procedures are explained in more detail over the next few pages. The Secretary of State may decide to extend that 28-day period if there is good reason to do so. For example, applicants sometimes ask to be given more time to negotiate with objectors, to see if they can persuade them to withdraw their objection (which might affect the choice of procedure).
<end quote>

So given that we are more than 28 days after this, Mr Grayling must have decided to extend that 28-day period? But no one seems to have announced anything publicly?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So given that we are more than 28 days after this, Mr Grayling must have decided to extend that 28-day period? But no one seems to have announced anything publicly?

The said Mr Grayling also seemed to keep the proposals for the new platform 15 and 16 project at Manchester Piccadilly station "at arms length", so to speak.

 

[snowball]

A few lines down from the top this page

https://www.eastwestrail.org.uk/transport-and-works-act-order-twao/

it says there is now likely to be a public inquiry. No doubt there will be an announcement once a date and venue have been chosen and an inspector appointed.

 

[eastdyke]

A few lines down from the top this page

https://www.eastwestrail.org.uk/transport-and-works-act-order-twao/

it says there is now likely to be a public inquiry. No doubt there will be an announcement once a date and venue have been chosen and an inspector appointed.

I am sure that if an Inquiry could be avoided then it would be. Nonetheless that seems an unlikely prospect.
An unnamed NR source provided this 'timetable' to Railfuture:

TWAO Submission 0 days 27/07/2018
Objections Period 42 days 27/07/2018
Notification of Inquiry 1 day 11/09/2018
All parties submit "statement of case" 30 days 11/09/2018
Request for proofs of evidence & statement of matters 10 days 24/10/2018
Proofs of evidence submission 40 days 07/11/2018
Notice of Pre-Inquiry Meeting 10 days 10/01/2019
Pre-Inquiry Meeting 0 days 25/01/2019
Commence Public Inquiry 06/02/2019

https://www.railfuture.org.uk/ox-cam

Clearly those dates quoted will not be met.

 

[DaveN]

A few lines down from the top this page

https://www.eastwestrail.org.uk/transport-and-works-act-order-twao/

it says there is now likely to be a public inquiry. No doubt there will be an announcement once a date and venue have been chosen and an inspector appointed.

That page could have been written anytime after September 7th though, couldn't it? 'Likely' being the key word.