ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[92002]

Absolutely correct and much more concisely put than my attempt up thread.
Contrary to the "it's all Wabtec's fault, Scotrail should give them a kicking" viewpoint expressed by many, I can envisage a situation where Scotrail (who don't have a realistic rolling stock alternative) are desperate to continue with the conversions while Wabtec are reluctant and may want out - but that's just more speculation. Either way, it's not happening in the timeframe required and ScotRail will need to get inventive to find a way forward. Loco hauled redundant EMUS anyone?

Perhaps Scotrail should insist that the other Wabtec factory in Kilmarnock is brought into the equation to modify the coaches.

This factory was after all responsible for the last refurbishment work on these coaches when they were with Great Western.
It would also keep the work in Scotland too. Reducing the unnecessarily inconvenient trips to and from Doncaster.

 

[jingsmonty]

I like the picture but I doubt Nessie will be seeing a HST any time soon!

Not a refurbished one, at least!

 

[JohnMcL7]

Who is this guy and why is he asking for views on my video? Not to go off topic or anything but what on earth

I guess just someone trying to drum up views but you'd think they could at least get the right topic...

Managed to get a picture of the two power cars at Inverness in much better light:

It looked like there was an FGW set sitting round the back of the depot (dark navy with brightly coloured purple doors) when I went past last week but that spot seems to be empty now, was that a training one?

 

[gsnedders]

Perhaps Scotrail should insist that the other Wabtec factory in Kilmarnock is brought into the equation to modify the coaches.

This factory was after all responsible for the last refurbishment work on these coaches when they were with Great Western.
It would also keep the work in Scotland too. Reducing the unnecessarily inconvenient trips to and from Doncaster.

As has been mentioned before, Kilmarnock is pretty much at capacity, so unless Scotrail wish to delay their 320/4s, nothing will happen there.

Given we don't know the details of the contract, we don't know whether Wabtec is allowed to subcontract the work, nor do we know how much it would cost to ship the carriages somewhere else where the work could be carried out (given places are either too busy or far away) and how that compares with any penalties Wabtec is paying.

 

[SC318250]

How many 321 units are at Kilmarnock for convertion, is it 2, with 1 due to arrive?

What other work does Kilmarnock have at present. I have to say that any work I have seen Kilmarnock Wabtec do (Barclays) has always been a quality job

Not critising Doncaster as the 318 job looks a brilliant job, which will probably take the 318 through to 2026, however the 318 could probably do a turn on East Kilbride/Barrhead/Kilmarnock until 2030 at least

 

[Northhighland]

Must they? There has been plenty of “additional work arising” because of the condition of the vehicles sent to Wabtec. From a contractual point of view, programme delivery dates go out of the window in that situation.

Don't think anyone on here can make any definite comment on Wabtec and why the contract is not being delivered. One thing for sure now though the current rate of progress is not going to work for Scotrail or Scotrail passengers. So something has to change. It may be the corrosion is a significant factor but I can hardly believe that corrosion on a 40 years old train int he Uk is an unexpected event and would think this would have been planned into the programme and the contract given Wabtec's experience of such work. Delivery dates never go out the window, they may be adjusted and reworked.

Whatever the challenges they face something needs to be done to change the dynamic of this situation. Other resource needs to be brought to bear to get the contract completed. Needs to be done.

 

[43096]

Don't think anyone on here can make any definite comment on Wabtec and why the contract is not being delivered. One thing for sure now though the current rate of progress is not going to work for Scotrail or Scotrail passengers. So something has to change. It may be the corrosion is a significant factor but I can hardly believe that corrosion on a 40 years old train int he Uk is an unexpected event and would think this would have been planned into the programme and the contract given Wabtec's experience of such work. Delivery dates never go out the window, they may be adjusted and reworked.

It depends on the level of corrosion and what level Wabtec were expecting (and had been told to expect by the owner). The conversion work is going into areas that may well never have been touched before - the door pockets go into the toilet area, including the area between toilet and bodyside, which may well never have been looked at. At least one vehicle has been that bad that it has been very close to being rejected from the programme after Wabtec stripped it down and looked at the work needed. In such circumstances delivery dates do go out of the window, despite what you may claim.

Whatever the challenges they face something needs to be done to change the dynamic of this situation. Other resource needs to be brought to bear to get the contract completed. Needs to be done.

It's been well documented that Wabtec have a resource shortage, which they have been trying to address. Part of that problem is that people coming in will likely have little or no rail experience - you cannot just magic that up.

All very well jumping up and down and stamping your feet saying "something needs to be done", but it doesn't sort the issues.

 

[Journeyman]

The RMT are doing their nut about the unrefurbished HSTs dumping toilet waste onto the track, which breaks an agreement made by ScotRail to abolish the practice.

I stand by my previously expressed views that choosing the HSTs was a very bad move.

 

[CC 72100]

The RMT are doing their nut about the unrefurbished HSTs dumping toilet waste onto the track, which breaks an agreement made by ScotRail to abolish the practice.

Not that this (dumping waste onto the track) is a good thing, but RMT needs to decide what would be worse for its members? - a temporary solution that yes, does involve waste being dumped onto the track, or their members frequently being on the receiving ends of frustrated passengers on a short-formed train as stock has gone off lease to pastures new with nothing to replace it yet.

 

[Deltic1961]

Scotland's railways are an utter mess. Scotrail, Network Rail and the Scottish Government all just blame each other.

The issue of short formed stock and the unsafe overcrowding caused by recurring cancellations is a real issue.

It will only be addressed when there's a serious accident involving an overcrowded train that results in a high number of casualties and deaths. Until that happens nothing will change.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Scotland's railways are an utter mess. Scotrail, Network Rail and the Scottish Government all just blame each other.

I think most users of Northern would happily do a swap.

It will only be addressed when there's a serious accident involving an overcrowded train that results in a high number of casualties and deaths. Until that happens nothing will change.

A heavily crowded train is most likely safer in an accident as people can't be thrown around.

 

[Stopper]

I think most users of Northern would happily do a swap.



A heavily crowded train is most likely safer in an accident as people can't be thrown around.

Two quite cringeworthy responses there.

Just because Northern is supposedly worse than ScotRail, that has no relevance to the fact Scotland’s railways are a mess.

The second response I have nothing to say to.

 

[jopsuk]

Not that this (dumping waste onto the track) is a good thing, but RMT needs to decide what would be worse for its members? - a temporary solution that yes, does involve waste being dumped onto the track, or their members frequently being on the receiving ends of frustrated passengers on a short-formed train as stock has gone off lease to pastures new with nothing to replace it yet.

A union as big as the RMT and covering as wide a remit will sometimes have a certain level of internal conflict between different parts. And so they have to weigh things up- genuine health risks to trackside workers versus potential elevated stress for on train staff

 

[Highland37]

Scotland's railways are an utter mess. Scotrail, Network Rail and the Scottish Government all just blame each other.

The issue of short formed stock and the unsafe overcrowding caused by recurring cancellations is a real issue.

It will only be addressed when there's a serious accident involving an overcrowded train that results in a high number of casualties and deaths. Until that happens nothing will change.

No, that is absolute rubbish. Quite surprised you come out with such nonsense actually.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The second response I have nothing to say to.

What, because it is correct? It is the precise reason why it is not unsafe to crush load trains.

 

[Northhighland]

It depends on the level of corrosion and what level Wabtec were expecting (and had been told to expect by the owner). The conversion work is going into areas that may well never have been touched before - the door pockets go into the toilet area, including the area between toilet and bodyside, which may well never have been looked at. At least one vehicle has been that bad that it has been very close to being rejected from the programme after Wabtec stripped it down and looked at the work needed. In such circumstances delivery dates do go out of the window, despite what you may claim.


It's been well documented that Wabtec have a resource shortage, which they have been trying to address. Part of that problem is that people coming in will likely have little or no rail experience - you cannot just magic that up.

All very well jumping up and down and stamping your feet saying "something needs to be done", but it doesn't sort the issues.

You can’t magic up experience but you can consistently over egg it’s value. Which is a common theme on here. This is a fabrication job. Plenty companies would get good at it very quickly if given the chance.

As to corrosion issue, again agree it might be worse than previously thought but let’s be honest could have rebuilt an entire set by now. That excuse only wears for so long. Past that point now. By now should be understood and programme adjusted accordingly


Thee is a danger the whole thing gets scrapped if Wabtec don’t get finger out.

Maybe mk5 and loco’s would be quicker?

Run “classic” HST’s for a few years until new stock is ready. Delay can’t be forever. Maybe time is coming to accept they just can’t deliver?

 

[Grinner]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46028596

I see the BBC have picked up on the RMT's complaints about the lack of retention tanks. Although they manage to imply that the unrefurbished HST are in fact partially refurbished.

The RMT has said it is appalled that newly refurbished trains will dump human waste directly onto train tracks.

The rail union said the practice, which had ceased after a deal with ScotRail in 2017, would result in its members being "sprayed with human waste".

It comes after it emerged that only one of a new fleet of high-speed trains linking Scotland's cities had been fitted with a human waste tank.

ScotRail described the situation as "far from ideal".

The rail operator said that of the 10 newly-refurbished trains due to come into service, only the train running between Aberdeen and Edinburgh had been fitted with a waste tank.

 

[Kite159]

A solution will be to lock the toilets out on the non-refurbished HSTs so there won't be an issue.

Or non-running the non-refurbished HSTs and expecting everybody to crush-load onto a single 158 which has been sent in place due to stock shortage, leaving folk behind from the start.

No doubt grounds for the RMT to call yet another strike

 

[Photohunter71]

You can’t magic up experience but you can consistently over egg it’s value. Which is a common theme on here. This is a fabrication job. Plenty companies would get good at it very quickly if given the chance.

As to corrosion issue, again agree it might be worse than previously thought but let’s be honest could have rebuilt an entire set by now. That excuse only wears for so long. Past that point now. By now should be understood and programme adjusted accordingly


Thee is a danger the whole thing gets scrapped if Wabtec don’t get finger out.

Maybe mk5 and loco’s would be quicker?

Run “classic” HST’s for a few years until new stock is ready. Delay can’t be forever. Maybe time is coming to accept they just can’t deliver?

Seconded!

 

[FQ]

A solution will be to lock the toilets out on the non-refurbished HSTs so there won't be an issue.

Or non-running the non-refurbished HSTs and expecting everybody to crush-load onto a single 158 which has been sent in place due to stock shortage, leaving folk behind from the start.

No doubt grounds for the RMT to call yet another strike

That really isn't a solution for journeys of this length. 3 and a half hours from Edinburgh to Inverness without toilets will easily drive customers away and they may well not return.

I really think the RMT needs to get a grip here. It's a temporary thing until the remaining refurbished sets can enter service, with the alternative being hideous overcrowding because they're losing the stock they currently have to other operators.

 

[Journeyman]

The issue of short formed stock and the unsafe overcrowding caused by recurring cancellations is a real issue.

It will only be addressed when there's a serious accident involving an overcrowded train that results in a high number of casualties and deaths. Until that happens nothing will change.

Overcrowding isn't pleasant, but it certainly isn't dangerous. And serious accidents are now incredibly unlikely to occur anyway. The last fatal train crash in this country was eleven years ago.

ScotRail have enormous problems right now, but alarmist stuff like this isn't helpful.

 

[Paul Kerr]

That really isn't a solution for journeys of this length. 3 and a half hours from Edinburgh to Inverness without toilets will easily drive customers away and they may well not return.

I really think the RMT needs to get a grip here. It's a temporary thing until the remaining refurbished sets can enter service, with the alternative being hideous overcrowding because they're losing the stock they currently have to other operators.

With all due respect to the people who work on the railway, I agree with you. It is a temporary stop gap measure and only a limited number of trains (9 in total, right?) will be running on the lines each day without CETs. It’s certainly not ideal but it is a temporary solution to keep trains running until the refurbished stock gets here. We don’t want a repeat of the Virgin Voyager fiasco where services were cancelled or people were asked to get off the train because overcrowding reached dangerous levels. Hopefully a compromise can be reached with the unions and this does not escalate into industrial action.

Has there been any update on when additional refurbished sets will be delivered or how many coaches or sets are actually in the works at Wabtec right now? Some communication from ScotRail on this might help allay the concerns of the unions.

 

[Kite159]

Besides doesn't other stock runs on those lines which don't have CETs?

The LNER HSTs and some of the 158s spring to mind

 

[Class37.4]

What a load of clap trap from the union given this is temp solution, and of course still loads of trains in other parts of the UK not with SET’s including of course as already mentioned LNER HST’s

 

[DanNCL]

Considering that LNER HSTs currently cover almost all of the track in concern without CET tanks anyway, this is just ridiculous. The RMT really need to sort themselves out here...

 

[Deltic1961]

It's hardly humane in the 21st Century though, is it?

You get fined £60 for pissing in the street but whole train loads of waste can be dumped in the open 18 hours a day ??????

 

[Paul Kerr]

It's hardly humane in the 21st Century though, is it?

You get fined £60 for pissing in the street but whole train loads of waste can be dumped in the open 18 hours a day ??????

Fair point and I agree with you that it is far from ideal, but unlike public streets, the railway solum is not accessible to the public and again we are talking about a total of 9 trains out of the entire ScotRail fleet which will run in this way as a temporary stop gap until the refurbished sets get here. Given that LNER and XC HSTs run this way on the lines to Aberdeen and Inverness surely there is no additional safety risk from doing this?

 

[mcmad]

For all those happy to reintroduce dumping I'll nip round and spray them and their houses. It might only be 9 trains but the agreement was reached with Scotrail to remove all dumping. To say its only temporary when there is no end date and given progress so far it is going to be years not months until all the refurb sets are introduced.

Are Scotrail going to have to also apply for a dispensation to the new DDA regs as well?

 

[Paul Kerr]

For all those happy to reintroduce dumping I'll nip round and spray them and their houses. It might only be 9 trains but the agreement was reached with Scotrail to remove all dumping. To say its only temporary when there is no end date and given progress so far it is going to be years not months until all the refurb sets are introduced.

Are Scotrail going to have to also apply for a dispensation to the new DDA regs as well?

With all due respect to you, what is your solution to this issue then? Is there other stock with CETs fitted that is off lease and available to use? If that is not available, are we looking at canceling trains? That’s not a great way to provide a service to the public is it?

As someone who designs waste water treatment facilities and has operated them in the past I agree with you it’s very unpleasant dealing with waste like this but with proper handling procedures and PPE the safety and environmental risks are reduced or eliminated altogether.

I do agree with you that ScotRail have not covered themselves with glory on this issue. Some communication on the revised ETA of the upgraded sets would be a big help. I know that there are no guarantees but based on what has been done to date they must have a reasonable idea now of how much time is needed to refurbish each set in the works based on manpower and the condition of the coaches.

 

[Deltic1961]

This says it all really .....

"A spokeswoman for Wabtec said the company did not wish to comment on the issue"