Your suggestions for the next Southeastern franchise

[hwl]

Or maybe the least worst.


Sigh. Since the West Coast fiasco DfT bend over backwards to make sure everything is fair. Whoever wins it will do so because they:
a) Haven't ruled themselves out with a non-compliant bid;
b) Pass the financial stress test; and
c) Have the best price of those remaining.

That will happen on Southeastern.

I'd go for Abellio being more suicidal than the others at the moment, I expect Stagecoach's to be too conservative to win, Govia sensible-ish but sensible doesn't win and Abellio's a bit too optimistic for their own good.

 

[ScotGG]

If they resubmitted the bid very recently they'd be well aware of previous issues with their GA bid so surely wouldn't do the same mistake twice?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Suffice to say at this stage I don’t honestly care who gets it; so long as the relevant regimes of penalties for failure are in place to make the bidder want to do a half-decent job.

I suggested in the consultation the following:
- All train lengths to be published in the timetable and every failure to cause a penalty to go into what could be described as a ‘communal pot’ used to recompense passengers on each route at the end of the year who hold season tickets.
- PPM to be 3 minutes for Metro and at all stations en route not just the end; and 6 minutes for Main Line. 6 minutes also for High Speed.
- Get Thameslink to run via Bromley South to avoid the metric tonne of conflict at North Kent East and then have 8tph Southeastern via Greenwich.
- New High Speed Fleet based at Hoo for the ‘North Kent’ bit down to Ramsgate with some services to Dover via Canterbury East and additional Medway area starters.
- 12 car trains at peak times from Maidstone West to Charing Cross via Strood, Dartford, Woolwich Arsenal and Lewisham to restore lost links and to provide extra capacity.
- Every Metro station to be staffed first > last train.
- More revenue protection staff to stop the knobs who ride round for free.

 

[hwl]

If they resubmitted the bid very recently they'd be well aware of previous issues with their GA bid so surely wouldn't do the same mistake twice?

DfT have changed things since the Anglia tender so they can't do the same "mistake" twice (not really a mistake just a bad assumption on DfT's part which they are no longer making). Abelio bid more aggressively all round and that possibly won't change!

 

[NorthKent1989]

Get Thameslink to run via Bromley South to avoid the metric tonne of conflict at North Kent East and then have 8tph Southeastern via Greenwich.

This would be ideal, however 8tph via Greenwich might be overkill, the link to Blackheath and Lewisham is needed in the off peak, a vast multitude of connections made there that cannot really be achieved Greenwich in the same way, also do Westcombe Park and Maze Hill need 8tph? Greenwich & Deptford yes definitely.

Although I would like to see some stations upgraded to 10tph on the line (8tph to Greenwich 2 of which would skip WP & MH, 2tph to Lewisham) but this may not be achieved any time soon.

 

[ScotGG]

Westcombe Park and Maze Hill are near very high levels of new homes but the current operator doesn't appear to know so makes no effort to appeal to those at the south of Greenwich Peninsula or at River Gardens/Enderby Wharf. It's in the thousands now being built. It's an area where TfL would probably do so much better regarding marketing and could link it in to their street division improving links to new homes.

Many more thousands of homes will be built in the west of Charlton retail area too near Westcombe Park in coming years.

Lets just hope this franchise takes that into account.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

This would be ideal, however 8tph via Greenwich might be overkill, the link to Blackheath and Lewisham is needed in the off peak, a vast multitude of connections made there that cannot really be achieved Greenwich in the same way, also do Westcombe Park and Maze Hill need 8tph? Greenwich & Deptford yes definitely.

Although I would like to see some stations upgraded to 10tph on the line (8tph to Greenwich 2 of which would skip WP & MH, 2tph to Lewisham) but this may not be achieved any time soon.

A flat 8tph isn’t overkill at all; so long as 4tph start back at Dartford. This new Dartford - Charing X is a complete waste of time all told; and plenty of connections can be made via London Bridge. A simple 7-8 minute frequency can be supplemented off peak with a further 8tph off Cannon to give a 7-8 minute frequency down to New Cross and Lewisham; 2 Sidcup / 2 Bexleyheath / 2 Hayes / 2 Orpington.

 

[HH]

I'd go for Abellio being more suicidal than the others at the moment, I expect Stagecoach's to be too conservative to win, Govia sensible-ish but sensible doesn't win and Abellio's a bit too optimistic for their own good.

Well, you're right about Stagecoach anyway. They've been conservative since they realised the mess they'd got themselves in at ICEC.

You're completely wrong about Govia though. They are about as sensible as Captain Sensible.

 

[brad465]

In an Abellio-win scenario (or Govia, I hope not), would the new Metro fleet likely consist of the Hitachi AT100 model (that has been mentioned on this thread before)?

Reading the Hitachi page about the proposed stock, it would be a very suitable fit I think, given the car no. configuration options, top speed and all-round versatility, the latter emphasised by the need to have 465s on outer suburban services still, where 375s alone are not enough.

As new as the 707s are, the nature of the SE franchise is multiples of 4, not 5, let alone there only being 30 units, so I think their best use is with pantographs up north. As for 458s they'd better not come this way, again given the wrong car configurations, but more so I think it would be ironic if, given their history, the Networkers low reliability caused them to be replaced with a fleet whose reliability record maybe considered even worse.

 

[ComUtoR]

- Get Thameslink to run via Bromley South to avoid the metric tonne of conflict at North Kent East

From where to where ? Thameslink already run via Bromley South and the conflicts at North Kent East seem to be resolved (ish) with the new layout.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Westcombe Park and Maze Hill are near very high levels of new homes but the current operator doesn't appear to know so makes no effort to appeal to those at the south of Greenwich Peninsula or at River Gardens/Enderby Wharf. It's in the thousands now being built. It's an area where TfL would probably do so much better regarding marketing and could link it in to their street division improving links to new homes.

Many more thousands of homes will be built in the west of Charlton retail area too near Westcombe Park in coming years.

Lets just hope this franchise takes that into account.

Surely 6tph is enough though off peak maybe raise to 8tph in the peaks.

I still advocate the service to and from Lewisham to the Woolwich line simply to maintain services to Charing Cross, which despite being 2tph on this line, the CX service is often busy and well used even in the off peak more so than the CS services which are 4tph and especially the Thameslink which is still running 1tph until December allegedly, the ITT says no more CX trains from 2022 but somehow I think the very loud Charlton Lobby will most definitely challenge this, the simple fact of the matter is more people still demand the West End more than the City.

 

[Barn]

This would be ideal, however 8tph via Greenwich might be overkill, the link to Blackheath and Lewisham is needed in the off peak, a vast multitude of connections made there that cannot really be achieved Greenwich in the same way, also do Westcombe Park and Maze Hill need 8tph? Greenwich & Deptford yes definitely.

It's funny, at peak times, my anecdotal observations are that there are consistently more people alighting at Maze Hill and Westcombe Park than at Charlton, and not just at times when Charlton passengers may have taken the previous train via Blackheath. Plumstead is also consistently busier than Charlton.

My view is that the numbers are a bit wrong, particularly the recent 20% drops. Many passengers at these stations buy season tickets to Charlton. You might as well, it's the same price. When I lived at Maze Hill the clerk even sold me a ticket to Charlton without me asking.

Maybe Charlton gets more during the day, or at evenings for the O2?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

From where to where ? Thameslink already run via Bromley South and the conflicts at North Kent East seem to be resolved (ish) with the new layout.

Luton - St Pancras - Blackfriars - Bromley South - Longfield - Rainham.

Vastly superior in respect of having more 377s for Ashford via Maidstone / Tunbridge Wells (eventually) and also allowing a captive Metro fleet that does every single trip via Dartford etc.

 

[ComUtoR]

It's funny, at peak times, my anecdotal observations are that there are consistently more people alighting at Maze Hill and Westcombe Park than at Charlton,

Are we strictly talking alighting ? In the morning or evening peak ?

and not just at times when Charlton passengers may have taken the previous train via Blackheath.

Charlton is consistent and has passengers throughout the day. It is the main train interchange for the O2 and has an active and busy shopping area (bugsby way) It als has the football ground which gets very busy on match day. I would also say it has a reasonable population density.

Plumstead is also consistently busier than Charlton.

Plumstead is a bit of a gateway into South London and into Kent. Big population density and bus links across that part of the southeast.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Surely 6tph is enough though off peak maybe raise to 8tph in the peaks.

I still advocate the service to and from Lewisham to the Woolwich line simply to maintain services to Charing Cross, which despite being 2tph on this line, the CX service is often busy and well used even in the off peak more so than the CS services which are 4tph and especially the Thameslink which is still running 1tph until December allegedly, the ITT says no more CX trains from 2022 but somehow I think the very loud Charlton Lobby will most definitely challenge this, the simple fact of the matter is more people still demand the West End more than the City.

I appreciate you live on the line but your biased view doesn’t make for great reading - the Lewisham - Charlton connection is next to defunct; the DLR from Greenwich to Lewisham is plenty frequent enough and a direct service from Erith to Charing Cross every 30 minutes (as an example) isn’t ‘turn up and go’ and also doesn’t represent good value when everyone can change at London Bridge.

 

[Barn]

Are we strictly talking alighting ? In the morning or evening peak ?

Most pronounced when alighting in the evening peak - Charlton seems lighter than Maze Hill and Westcombe Park. I always travel in the vestibule (I sit down all day at work so am grateful to be on my feet) and it is not at all uncommon for the door not even to open at Charlton, but for 8-10 people to alight through each door at the other stations.

Perhaps everyone crowds the front couple of carriages as the down platform has a single exit at the front.

 

[Barn]

Charlton is consistent and has passengers throughout the day. It is the main train interchange for the O2 and has an active and busy shopping area (bugsby way) It als has the football ground which gets very busy on match day. I would also say it has a reasonable population density.

Yeah, I suspect it is just flatter throughout the day rather than peak-driven.

 

[ComUtoR]

Luton - St Pancras - Blackfriars - Bromley South - Longfield - Rainham..

Including the fasts via the loop, the Soaks via the loop, the Vics via Orpy and the ones turning back at Bromley. Your overloading Bromley South and the Loop. You also start to see a constraint through Nunhead and through Denmark Hill. You also still have services into the Core and the conflict at Blackfriars and Snow Hill. This is already proving to be an issue and pushing more services up the loop seems prohibitive.

And...

No matter how much I try and remain open minded. I think that reintroduction of SE services into Charing Cross from Deptford side just breaks North Kent more than ever.

 

[ComUtoR]

Yeah, I suspect it is just flatter throughout the day rather than peak-driven.

Both Charlton and Plumstead I fully expect passengers to alight and board 100% of the time. So yep, off peak its one of those stations where you see consistent passengers. Westcombe Park less so. I can stop there and not see anyone board or alight.

With Maze Hill there is a consideration where it is still very close to Greenwich. Dependent on where you lived it could be the more convenient option. I exit at Maze Hill for the Observatory and walk into Greenwich so I can see how it can be a station where you tend to have options.

 

[ComUtoR]

Perhaps everyone crowds the front couple of carriages as the down platform has a single exit at the front.

I hate passenger loading behavior but it can lead to weird observations about how busy a station is. Maze Hill has multiple exits and Charlton exists mostly down the front. If you are near the back you wouldn't notice much of an exit at Charlton and even Maze Hill to some extent.

You could write a dissertation on passenger loading behavior. If you ever want a seat on a specific service then sit in the diametrically opposed seating area for the stopping pattern. I find it amusing that some passengers moan about seating availability but I know for certain there are seats down the train.

 

[NorthKent1989]

It's funny, at peak times, my anecdotal observations are that there are consistently more people alighting at Maze Hill and Westcombe Park than at Charlton, and not just at times when Charlton passengers may have taken the previous train via Blackheath. Plumstead is also consistently busier than Charlton.

My view is that the numbers are a bit wrong, particularly the recent 20% drops. Many passengers at these stations buy season tickets to Charlton. You might as well, it's the same price. When I lived at Maze Hill the clerk even sold me a ticket to Charlton without me asking.

Maybe Charlton gets more during the day, or at evenings for the O2?

Charlton I think will probably get busier in the coming years, the new ICON shopping arena is right inside the o2 centre and that itself alone is a big attraction not to mention the new outdoor shopping arcade at Bugsby Way, then there’s the new IKEA too.

I honestly think it’s possible that the NK line will eventually get 10tph off peak from Dartford onwards 8tph to Greenwich then the remaining 2tph to Lewisham, but for now I think it’ll stay at 8tph.

 

[NorthKent1989]

No matter how much I try and remain open minded. I think that reintroduction of SE services into Charing Cross from Deptford side just breaks North Kent more than ever.

I don’t it was mentioned that CX trains would go via Greenwich, that train has long since departed, unless there is anothe huge rebuild of London Bridge in about 40-50 years time to enable this which I doubt.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I appreciate you live on the line but your biased view doesn’t make for great reading - the Lewisham - Charlton connection is next to defunct; the DLR from Greenwich to Lewisham is plenty frequent enough and a direct service from Erith to Charing Cross every 30 minutes (as an example) isn’t ‘turn up and go’ and also doesn’t represent good value when everyone can change at London Bridge.

Maybe so, and I kind of agree with you In the sense that I am biased, but I’m only going by previous attempts to remove CX trains from the line and it’s usually met by opposition, don’t get me wrong I do see your point though.

Even with the fact that CX is basically a bonus service for the line, travellers get some reassurance that they have an option for two London terminals, weird I know and I’m probably one of those people.

One thing I do share with you is the removal of Thameslink trains off the NK Line and it replacing the current Medway stopper via Bromley.

In the next few weeks my partner and I will be moving to Greenwich is there a Woolwich line rail users group in existence? I’ve done some searches and come up with nothing, which is surprising if there is none????? I know there is a Greenwich line group but wondered if there was one for the whole line?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Including the fasts via the loop, the Soaks via the loop, the Vics via Orpy and the ones turning back at Bromley. Your overloading Bromley South and the Loop. You also start to see a constraint through Nunhead and through Denmark Hill. You also still have services into the Core and the conflict at Blackfriars and Snow Hill. This is already proving to be an issue and pushing more services up the loop seems prohibitive.

And...

No matter how much I try and remain open minded. I think that reintroduction of SE services into Charing Cross from Deptford side just breaks North Kent more than ever.

Any service via North Kent East off the Greenwich that doesn't go to Cannon Street is a very serious issue. Period.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

- Get Thameslink to run via Bromley South to avoid the metric tonne of conflict at North Kent East and then have 8tph Southeastern via Greenwich.

Westcombe Park and Maze Hill are near very high levels of new homes but the current operator doesn't appear to know so makes no effort to appeal to those at the south of Greenwich Peninsula or at River Gardens/Enderby Wharf. It's in the thousands now being built. It's an area where TfL would probably do so much better regarding marketing and could link it in to their street division improving links to new homes.

On the other hand, starting in about a year's time, large numbers of passengers travelling from Woolwich or beyond will swap from SouthEastern to Crossrail, so trains around Greenwich etc. will be less full. Also, increasing the frequency along that line requires more paths to Cannon Street, which basically don't exist. I would expect the DfT to be well aware of those issues when specifying the frequency along the Greenwich corridor.

What would be good though would be keeping the same 10-minute frequency at evenings and on Sundays.

 

[theageofthetra]

Suffice to say at this stage I don’t honestly care who gets it; so long as the relevant regimes of penalties for failure are in place to make the bidder want to do a half-decent job.

I suggested in the consultation the following:
- All train lengths to be published in the timetable and every failure to cause a penalty to go into what could be described as a ‘communal pot’ used to recompense passengers on each route at the end of the year who hold season tickets.
- PPM to be 3 minutes for Metro and at all stations en route not just the end; and 6 minutes for Main Line. 6 minutes also for High Speed.
- Get Thameslink to run via Bromley South to avoid the metric tonne of conflict at North Kent East and then have 8tph Southeastern via Greenwich.
- New High Speed Fleet based at Hoo for the ‘North Kent’ bit down to Ramsgate with some services to Dover via Canterbury East and additional Medway area starters.
- 12 car trains at peak times from Maidstone West to Charing Cross via Strood, Dartford, Woolwich Arsenal and Lewisham to restore lost links and to provide extra capacity.
- Every Metro station to be staffed first > last train.
- More revenue protection staff to stop the knobs who ride round for free.

Would like to see a penalty for each unit with no working toilets.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

On the other hand, starting in about a year's time, large numbers of passengers travelling from Woolwich or beyond will swap from SouthEastern to Crossrail, so trains around Greenwich etc. will be less full. Also, increasing the frequency along that line requires more paths to Cannon Street, which basically don't exist. I would expect the DfT to be well aware of those issues when specifying the frequency along the Greenwich corridor.

What would be good though would be keeping the same 10-minute frequency at evenings and on Sundays.

On the contrary...

Just because the trains may not necessarily be full and standing the entire way doesn’t mean that the services won’t be both much busier between, say, Gravesend and Abbey Wood as they are used to feed the new behemoth that is Crossrail. Indeed, the provision of something akin to 4tph from Gravesend to Cannon all stops via Greenwich and 2tph from each of Barnehurst and Crayford (starting back from wherever) will be extremely important.

It does, however, make the prospect of 8 car Ops every 7-8 mins as a clockface service via Greenwich all stops vastly more attractive as people seek to connect with trains running every 5-8 mins depending on the time of day. Moreover, a lesser number of people on trains east of Charlton through to London freeing up capacity for people in the Westcombe / Greenwich / Deptford corridor makes that service indeed more attractive; and passengers who seriously need Blackheath can use the 53/54 from Woolwich or the 108 from Westcombe Park or those going to Lewisham can get the DLR.

Any notion after Crossrail opens (serving, for example, Liverpool Street / Farringdon / TCR / Bond Street / Paddington) that people seriously want to go from Erith or Belvedere to Charing Cross on a direct train is bogus. They will all want to get on the vastly quicker Crossrail to the heart of the West End or indeed to the City. Even those who want St Pancras will use it to Farringdon!

If you’re in Charlton and you want Charing Cross nobody could possibly complain that a 7-8 minute frequency of trains off-peak and peak with a simple escalator / elevator change at London Bridge onto 2-3 minutely trains to Charing Cross is a difficulty. Indeed, not being on a train that is sat at Tanners Hill either up or down waiting for a path or sat in the platform at Lewisham waiting the road over the diamond is a bonus in itself.

The simple point is this: a clockface timetable from Cannon to Greenwich, Woolwich and Sludge to continue to Dartford / Gravesend / Barnehurst / Crayford is the single best outcome without all this nonsense asking for through journeys to everywhere. In fact, if I lived in Erith I’d be standing up screaming for a 7-8 minutely service to Cannon St from 0600-2100 because I know if I need to go to Blackheath, Lewisham, Waterloo, Charing Cross, Peckham Rye, Denmark Hill, Victoria or even places like Hayes, Grove Park and New Eltham the world extends beyond a piddly half-hourly train via Blackheath that I didn’t used to have and likely won’t have in the future.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Would like to see a penalty for each unit with no working toilets.

Totally agree.

Also of the opinion that Metro DOES need at least 2 toilets per fixed-length 12 car in the new franchise as I have been caught short on many a trip home to Bexleyheath after a good night out!

 

[brad465]

Would like to see a penalty for each unit with no working toilets.

If you take that literally, then the new franchise winner better fix up or replace the 376s very quickly

 

[Carlisle]

Well, you're right about Stagecoach anyway. They've been conservative since they realised the mess they'd got themselves in at ICEC.
.

Then again weren’t Stagecoach always conservative bidders as I seem to recall it being stated their original SWT bid might’ve been the most competitive even then? and they only went on to win EMT despite bidding a fair number of times over the last 20 years.
ICEC was perhaps an isolated period of madness after they’d found it easier than first anticipated to make decent money after buying into the parallel VTWC.