Ideas for better utilisation of Brighton Main Line

[modernrail]

A thought on increasing capacity. Current situation:
- Gatwick Express taking up space but not fully utilised;
- Severe overcrowding on Brighton services;
- Most capacity improvement options very expensive.
- Airport very concerned about having dedicated capacity.

It strikes me that the airport's main concern is capacity coming into London. They want people to leave the fairly shoddy airport and awful train station and get onto a dedicated service thereby having the best experience in the whole airport journey! Leaving sarcasm aside for a second, I wonder if there is a partial solution that would allow for a huge increase in express services on this line - but I am sure there are reasons this will be shot down on this forum that I haven't thought of.

Quite simply, could you:
- make all Gatwick Express services London - Clapham - Gatwick - Brighton;
- Stop all current Brighton non-stops at Gatwick;
- Continue with all the semi expresses;
- Run all above as 12 car;
I am not sure what that comes to, but maybe about 8 an hour.

On at least 6 of these services - lock out the centre 4 cars between Brighton and Gatwick. Those 4 cars will then land in the right bit at Gatwick and the platforms could be re-designed a little to encourage people to stand there. There are then 4 carriages of dedicated space every 10 minutes with less confusion for passengers because there is a single branded service to Victoria.

All the former Express could either run non-stop into London or stop at EC or Clapham for what are useful connections from the Airport. I personally use both.

If more trains are required, won't Stansted Express units be surplus to requirements soon? Exactly the right type.

If capacity south of Gatwick is an issue, is this not a reasonable mainline candidate for the same system that has been installed on the Thameslink core? All the Thameslink trains and drivers would already be capable of operating across that system.

I might be wrong, but this just feels like the cheapest way of sorting the issue out with a decent compromise for all.

I would add that some of these services will not be full at all and so you could install the flexible seating ideas we are seeing to create a fast parcel service between Gatwick and Central London.

 

[AM9]

... If capacity south of Brighton is an issue, ...

?????

 

[PHILIPE]

You may find some useful in this now closed thread

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/govt-to-review-brighton-main-line-capacity.118024

 

[modernrail]

?????

Thanks for pointing out my typo. I will point out that you have forgotten to attach a question mark to a sentence and have added several superfluous marks

 

[modernrail]

You may find some useful in this now closed thread

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/govt-to-review-brighton-main-line-capacity.118024

Thanks. One the reports there seems to have taken the maximum number of opportunities to point out hoe the Gatwick Express in its current form is unhelpful in terms of capacity.

 

[700007]

I would get rid of Gatwick Express and introduce 4tph Southern services that go London Victoria, Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport. 2 of these trains an hour would continue to Brighton using the same calling pattern as the ThamesLink service from Bedford to Brighton. All Southern services to be formed of a minimum of 8 carriages and provides a once every 10 minute service from London Victoria to Brighton.

The ThamesLink services from Bedford would then be timetabled to run non-stop from Gatwick Airport to Brighton.

 

[Bald Rick]

A thought on increasing capacity. Current situation:
- Gatwick Express taking up space but not fully utilised;
- Severe overcrowding on Brighton services;
- Most capacity improvement options very expensive.
- Airport very concerned about having dedicated capacity.

It strikes me that the airport's main concern is capacity coming into London. They want people to leave the fairly shoddy airport and awful train station and get onto a dedicated service thereby having the best experience in the whole airport journey! Leaving sarcasm aside for a second, I wonder if there is a partial solution that would allow for a huge increase in express services on this line - but I am sure there are reasons this will be shot down on this forum that I haven't thought of.

Quite simply, could you:
- make all Gatwick Express services London - Clapham - Gatwick - Brighton;
- Stop all current Brighton non-stops at Gatwick;
- Continue with all the semi expresses;
- Run all above as 12 car;
I am not sure what that comes to, but maybe about 8 an hour.

On at least 6 of these services - lock out the centre 4 cars between Brighton and Gatwick. Those 4 cars will then land in the right bit at Gatwick and the platforms could be re-designed a little to encourage people to stand there. There are then 4 carriages of dedicated space every 10 minutes with less confusion for passengers because there is a single branded service to Victoria.

All the former Express could either run non-stop into London or stop at EC or Clapham for what are useful connections from the Airport. I personally use both.

If more trains are required, won't Stansted Express units be surplus to requirements soon? Exactly the right type.

If capacity south of Gatwick is an issue, is this not a reasonable mainline candidate for the same system that has been installed on the Thameslink core? All the Thameslink trains and drivers would already be capable of operating across that system.

I might be wrong, but this just feels like the cheapest way of sorting the issue out with a decent compromise for all.

I would add that some of these services will not be full at all and so you could install the flexible seating ideas we are seeing to create a fast parcel service between Gatwick and Central London.

A couple of points:

All the Brighton ‘non-stops’ already call at Gatwick, certainly in the peak. And in the peak most if not all ar already 12 car. Also, in the peaks, almost every up Gatwick Express starts from Brighton in the morning, or down services terminate there in the evening. The semis don’t run 8n the peak, as there is insufficient capacity for them (because the Gat Ex’s are all extended). This has all been a feature of the Brighton line timetable since 2015. So I think the timetable already reflects what you are suggesting?

Unfortunately the Stansted Express trains are not exactly the right train. They would go precisely nowhere on the Brighton Main Line. Of course they could go away for modifications to enable them to work on 3rd rail, however there are other, potentially easier, ways of obtaining the right sort of third rail stock for the line. If it’s needed.

 

[JonathanH]

The morning peak service from Clapham Junction to East Croydon and Gatwick Airport and south of Croydon towards Brighton is atrocious because of the need to accommodate the Gatwick Express service calling Victoria - Gatwick - Brighton.

In particular, no direct train between Clapham Junction and Gatwick between four car trains at 0601 and 0643 while there are three long Gatwick Express trains running non stop in between.

One of the Gatwick Express trains has to stop at Burgess Hill, Hassocks and Preston Park to maintain capacity into Brighton in the morning peak.

I'm not sure what the OP is getting at by suggesting that Gatwick itself is a shoddy experience (apart from the nonsense for UK and Ireland arrivals needing a bus transfer).

What also is the evidence for 'severe overcrowding on Brighton services' which the OP talks about? Is there a particular time of day being referred to? In theory a lot of that will eventually be dealt with by 4tph 12-car Thameslink services.

 

[modernrail]

A couple of points:

All the Brighton ‘non-stops’ already call at Gatwick, certainly in the peak. And in the peak most if not all ar already 12 car. Also, in the peaks, almost every up Gatwick Express starts from Brighton in the morning, or down services terminate there in the evening. The semis don’t run 8n the peak, as there is insufficient capacity for them (because the Gat Ex’s are all extended). This has all been a feature of the Brighton line timetable since 2015. So I think the timetable already reflects what you are suggesting?

Unfortunately the Stansted Express trains are not exactly the right train. They would go precisely nowhere on the Brighton Main Line. Of course they could go away for modifications to enable them to work on 3rd rail, however there are other, potentially easier, ways of obtaining the right sort of third rail stock for the line. If it’s needed.

I hadn't realised that this was the position already with peak Gatwick Express, probably because I tend to try and travel off-peak in terms of trains and flights to avoid the crowds. That does rather undermine my whole post the doesn't it!! Except for one thing I suppose. It demonstrates how confusing the whole Southern/Gatwick Express branding and fares continue to be. However, that point is well trodden ground.

I know I always wait for a Southern service over an Express. Is there evidence that other people do this to the extent that the peak time Gatwick Express is not picking up as many passengers as it could at Gatwick and landing in Victoria with space to spare? Even if it is though, I suppose we are only talking about a tiny bit more potential capacity there.

As for Gatwick - the OP thinks the airport is average at best (a bit better after the recent tarting up but that doesn't solve the lack of operational resilience) and the train station is dreadful. I know there are plans for the station though.

 

[AlexNL]

Unfortunately the Stansted Express trains are not exactly the right train. They would go precisely nowhere on the Brighton Main Line. Of course they could go away for modifications to enable them to work on 3rd rail, however there are other, potentially easier, ways of obtaining the right sort of third rail stock for the line. If it’s needed.

Send the StanEx trains to GWR, then send the dual-voltage GWR 387's to GTR?

 

[JonathanH]

I hadn't realised that this was the position already with peak Gatwick Express, probably because I tend to try and travel off-peak in terms of trains and flights to avoid the crowds. That does rather undermine my whole post the doesn't it!! Except for one thing I suppose. It demonstrates how confusing the whole Southern/Gatwick Express branding and fares continue to be. However, that point is well trodden ground.

I know I always wait for a Southern service over an Express. Is there evidence that other people do this to the extent that the peak time Gatwick Express is not picking up as many passengers as it could at Gatwick and landing in Victoria with space to spare? Even if it is though, I suppose we are only talking about a tiny bit more potential capacity there.

As for Gatwick - the OP thinks the airport is average at best (a bit better after the recent tarting up but that doesn't solve the lack of operational resilience) and the train station is dreadful. I know there are plans for the station though.

The most recent changes to the timetable actually even out the Southern Victoria to Gatwick off peak service to (roughly) every ten minutes (xx06, xx16, xx25, xx36, xx46, xx55) which is great - it just kicks in too late in the morning. Whilst this pattern is running, I don't see the problem with running Victoria to Gatwick trains non-stop at xx00, xx13, xx30 and xx43.

It isn't so good in the up direction from Gatwick to Victoria as the Brighton starter runs on the wrong side of the half hour (xx27, xx33, xx39, xx57, xx03, xx39). Gatwick Express runs to Victoria xx42, xx54, xx12, xx24 so arriving at Gatwick Airport station at the wrong time might lead to a wait for a Southern train.

 

[modernrail]

The morning peak service from Clapham Junction to East Croydon and Gatwick Airport and south of Croydon towards Brighton is atrocious because of the need to accommodate the Gatwick Express service calling Victoria - Gatwick - Brighton.

In particular, no direct train between Clapham Junction and Gatwick between four car trains at 0601 and 0643 while there are three long Gatwick Express trains running non stop in between.

One of the Gatwick Express trains has to stop at Burgess Hill, Hassocks and Preston Park to maintain capacity into Brighton in the morning peak.

I'm not sure what the OP is getting at by suggesting that Gatwick itself is a shoddy experience (apart from the nonsense for UK and Ireland arrivals needing a bus transfer).

What also is the evidence for 'severe overcrowding on Brighton services' which the OP talks about? Is there a particular time of day being referred to? In theory a lot of that will eventually be dealt with by 4tph 12-car Thameslink services.

To be fair it is the constant references to it rather than a firm evidence base. However, having looked through a few reports this morning it seems like the capacity constraints are mostly in the urban area nearer London. I suppose this is a bit of a historic hangover, with the total lack of proper tube network south of the river forcing huge amounts of people onto infrastructure that would be better used for less metro services in an ideal world. The system south of the river is pretty baffling at the best of times, I am yet to figure out the logic of when my Tulse Hill trains are routed to East Croydon - which is the most useful end point for me but seems to be a movable feast through the day.

 

[JonathanH]

There are clearly some issues still with the South Central routes - Network Rail wouldn't be consulting on a wholesale rebuilding of East Croydon / Windmill Bridge Junction if there weren't.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...s/south-east/croydon-area-remodelling-scheme/

Also, yes running intensive fast and stopping services over any line (e.g. Gatwick Express and its Brighton extension vs Southern and Thameslink services) causes a problem. However it should be noted that it is a Croydon area scheme rather than anything which might improve any of the flat junctions further south.

 

[MarkyT]

Send the StanEx trains to GWR, then send the dual-voltage GWR 387's to GTR?

I don't believe the 379s on StanEx are as 'ETCS ready' as the nearly new 387s going to GWR. The 387s have the latest Bombardier train management system which 'under the hood' is identical to that of the new Elizabeth Line trains and specified from the outset to be ready for the upgrade. They already have passive provision for adding the DMI (driver-machine Interface) cab control screen on the drivers desk. ETCS will be essential for working in the Heathrow tunnels once the GW pilot scheme ATP is switched off and the 379s would require a much more substantial and expensive rebuild to be compatible. I'm sure, given their age, they will get that rebuild eventually for service somewhere, but that will not be for GW to Heathrow.

 

[Bald Rick]

Send the StanEx trains to GWR, then send the dual-voltage GWR 387's to GTR?

Dare I say there are a number of vehicles coming off lease in the vicinity of Waterloo that could find work out of Victoria. Hell, some of them even used to work there.

 

[JonathanH]

Dare I say there are a number of vehicles coming off lease in the vicinity of Waterloo that could find work out of Victoria. Hell, some of them even used to work there.

Certainly one way of making a few Victoria to Sussex Coast services longer by using 456+455+455 on metro services in place of 377/4+377/3+377/3 (or 10-707 in place of 10-377/6) to release stock. Whether there is sensible depot capacity and the appetite to lease more stock is presumably a different matter.

Question is whether Croydon area remodelling is about more services or just greater reliability of the existing ones?

 

[swt_passenger]

Certainly one way of making a few Victoria to Sussex Coast services longer by using 456+455+455 on metro services in place of 377/4+377/3+377/3 (or 10-707 in place of 10-377/6) to release stock. Whether there is sensible depot capacity and the appetite to lease more stock is presumably a different matter.

Question is whether Croydon area remodelling is about more services or just greater reliability of the existing ones?

Both. It just came up in the current Croydon remodelling discussion in the infrastructure forum.