ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[43096]

Wabtec must be in a serious breach of contract situation over this - I suspect we will hear a lot more about this in the future, but nothing much just now.

Must they? There has been plenty of “additional work arising” because of the condition of the vehicles sent to Wabtec. From a contractual point of view, programme delivery dates go out of the window in that situation.

 

[gsnedders]

Must they? There has been plenty of “additional work arising” because of the condition of the vehicles sent to Wabtec. From a contractual point of view, programme delivery dates go out of the window in that situation.

And ultimately this is the problem I think most in this thread have: we don't know the detail of the contract between Abellio and Wabtec.

 

[43096]

And ultimately this is the problem I think most in this thread have: we don't know the detail of the contract between Abellio and Wabtec.

Exactly! So we’ve had over 4000 posts with lots of guesses in many of them. The internet at its finest.

 

[Southsider]

And ultimately this is the problem I think most in this thread have: we don't know the detail of the contract between Abellio and Wabtec.

Absolutely correct and much more concisely put than my attempt up thread.
Contrary to the "it's all Wabtec's fault, Scotrail should give them a kicking" viewpoint expressed by many, I can envisage a situation where Scotrail (who don't have a realistic rolling stock alternative) are desperate to continue with the conversions while Wabtec are reluctant and may want out - but that's just more speculation. Either way, it's not happening in the timeframe required and ScotRail will need to get inventive to find a way forward. Loco hauled redundant EMUS anyone?

 

[Mordac]

Absolutely correct and much more concisely put than my attempt up thread.
Contrary to the "it's all Wabtec's fault, Scotrail should give them a kicking" viewpoint expressed by many, I can envisage a situation where Scotrail (who don't have a realistic rolling stock alternative) are desperate to continue with the conversions while Wabtec are reluctant and may want out - but that's just more speculation. Either way, it's not happening in the timeframe required and ScotRail will need to get inventive to find a way forward. Loco hauled redundant EMUS anyone?

Aren't there still some odd six 442s left?

 

[jingsmonty]

Absolutely correct and much more concisely put than my attempt up thread.
Contrary to the "it's all Wabtec's fault, Scotrail should give them a kicking" viewpoint expressed by many, I can envisage a situation where Scotrail (who don't have a realistic rolling stock alternative) are desperate to continue with the conversions while Wabtec are reluctant and may want out - but that's just more speculation. Either way, it's not happening in the timeframe required and ScotRail will need to get inventive to find a way forward. Loco hauled redundant EMUS anyone?

No! What are Scotrail going to do with 50 odd redundant HST power cars? Some time has been bought by using the so called 'classic' sets...not ideal by any means, but the only sensible option.

For all people go on about HST alternatives, there isn't a readily available one out there - it must be considered the performance factor of 2x HST power cars with 4/5 coaches - there's nothing out there that's available in a short space of time that could provide the performance - partly why the HSTs were picked in the 1st place!

 

[jingsmonty]

And ultimately this is the problem I think most in this thread have: we don't know the detail of the contract between Abellio and Wabtec.

Agree. Whatever this contract contains, we can only guess at & it certainly won't be made public for some time, if ever.

 

[jingsmonty]

The situation with the Mk3s is strangely parralel to when the Class 91s were first introduced - the locos were ready but the coaches weren't & had to go into service with HST Mk3 trailers & a power car DVT!

I'll await with interest any further developments, but certainly nothing much seems to be happening re training just now, for Slam Door Mk3s...probably got a lot to do with the ongoing Scotrail/RMT dispute. Certainly, drivers haven't had any skam door training (which we'll need for ECS movements, train prep, etc), although I've heard this is in hand.

 

[PG]

Just come off the refurbished set, travelled in Standard class accessible coach 42004.

Excellent ride quality and free from any squeaks and rattles.

Catering has taken a step up from the previous offering.

Plenty of staff on board and active, maybe to help rectify any defects quickly?

Full marks to the train presentation team as rubbish was regularly being collected throughout the journey.

Two issues noted:

• Automatic door between saloon and accessible toilet - the inset magic eye/sensor failed to detect people who slowly approached from either side - some folk hovered about while others gave the door a good tug to get it open. In full all day service I can see the mechanism failing unless the sensor is adjusted.
• Door hustle alarm was sounding randomly while in motion during the journey.

Those minor issues aside full marks are due for a step change in Scottish Intercity travel.

Not sure if other Scotrail classes have this wee picture in the loo, nice touch!
]

 

[Mordac]

Just come off the refurbished set, travelled in Standard class accessible coach 42004.

Excellent ride quality and free from any squeaks and rattles.

Catering has taken a step up from the previous offering.

Plenty of staff on board and active, maybe to help rectify any defects quickly?

Full marks to the train presentation team as rubbish was regularly being collected throughout the journey.

Two issues noted:

• Automatic door between saloon and accessible toilet - the inset magic eye/sensor failed to detect people who slowly approached from either side - some folk hovered about while others gave the door a good tug to get it open. In full all day service I can see the mechanism failing unless the sensor is adjusted.
• Door hustle alarm was sounding randomly while in motion during the journey.

Those minor issues aside full marks are due for a step change in Scottish Intercity travel.

Not sure if other Scotrail classes have this wee picture in the loo, nice touch!
View attachment 54374 ]

That picture is great! Agreed it's a great touch, but maybe I'm just a big kid at heart.

 

[jingsmonty]

Just come off the refurbished set, travelled in Standard class accessible coach 42004.

Excellent ride quality and free from any squeaks and rattles.

Catering has taken a step up from the previous offering.

Plenty of staff on board and active, maybe to help rectify any defects quickly?

Full marks to the train presentation team as rubbish was regularly being collected throughout the journey.

Two issues noted:

• Automatic door between saloon and accessible toilet - the inset magic eye/sensor failed to detect people who slowly approached from either side - some folk hovered about while others gave the door a good tug to get it open. In full all day service I can see the mechanism failing unless the sensor is adjusted.
• Door hustle alarm was sounding randomly while in motion during the journey.

Those minor issues aside full marks are due for a step change in Scottish Intercity travel.

Not sure if other Scotrail classes have this wee picture in the loo, nice touch!
View attachment 54374 ]

Great to see the marketing department make full use of the 'iconic' image of an HST & not shying away from their heritage...the HST is truly a design classic & has aged amazingly well.

For all the trials & tribulations of the Scotrail HSTs, it still is a magnificent train. I'm a bit biased, true, but I love 'em!

 

[Bodiddly]

Was on the new set the other day. I was well impressed with everything about it. My one niggle? No USB ports, just plug points but that's only because I left my plug at home! The new power doors look like an amazing feat of engineering and as an insider, I know the work that went into getting them designed and fitted. Congratulations to Scotrail, Brush and Wabtec for these 'new' trains, they really are 100 times better than a 170 in my opinion. Really looking forward to seeing them on the HML.

 

[Indigo Soup]

No USB ports, just plug points but that's only because I left my plug at home!

Weirdly, there are apparently USB ports in First Class, implying that there was a deliberate decision not to have them in Standard!

 

[Bungle965]

Weirdly, there are apparently USB ports in First Class, implying that there was a deliberate decision not to have them in Standard!

Presumably down to cost as they were already fitted with USB's from their time with GWR in First.
Sam

 

[Bodiddly]

Weirdly, there are apparently USB ports in First Class, implying that there was a deliberate decision not to have them in Standard!

Didn't see in First as I was up the other end but that's interesting to know that there are USB ports there just in case.

 

[PG]

My one niggle? No USB ports, just plug points

The accessible coach definitely has USB points next to the wheelchair space, can't comment on the rest of the standard class seats.

 

[cf111]

Just come off the refurbished set, travelled in Standard class accessible coach 42004.

Excellent ride quality and free from any squeaks and rattles.

Catering has taken a step up from the previous offering.

Plenty of staff on board and active, maybe to help rectify any defects quickly?

Full marks to the train presentation team as rubbish was regularly being collected throughout the journey.

Two issues noted:

• Automatic door between saloon and accessible toilet - the inset magic eye/sensor failed to detect people who slowly approached from either side - some folk hovered about while others gave the door a good tug to get it open. In full all day service I can see the mechanism failing unless the sensor is adjusted.
• Door hustle alarm was sounding randomly while in motion during the journey.

Those minor issues aside full marks are due for a step change in Scottish Intercity travel.

Not sure if other Scotrail classes have this wee picture in the loo, nice touch!
View attachment 54374 ]

I like the picture but I doubt Nessie will be seeing a HST any time soon!

 

[connormill]

Regarding the USB in standard, I can't help but think the decision was due to the fragility of USB

All it takes is people trying to force in a plug the wrong way round to damage to the centre insert then it's now useless.

Don't have that issue with a 3 pin plug.

I know that with the Jet727 bus service in Aberdeen they fitted USB ports at seats as the type of traveller was less likely to (either accidentally or on purpose) damage the port.
But the rest of the fleet didn't get them as there were concerns about less considerate passengers damaging them

 

[ossy5190]

Almost had my first trip today on the 1404 from Aberdeen but it was cancelled due to fault about 5 min after it was due to leave. Heard the driver say it was a brake fault. Was sitting in first class looking forward to the trip then got turfed off on to a 170. Bit disappointed, quite a few others were too. Even the 'normals' seemed pretty impressed by the HST and there were quite a few unfavourable comments about the the replacement 170. Good to hear the number of people that noticed the difference in quiality between the two.

 

[connormill]

Almost had my first trip today on the 1404 from Aberdeen but it was cancelled due to fault about 5 min after it was due to leave. Heard the driver say it was a brake fault. Was sitting in first class looking forward to the trip then got turfed off on to a 170. Bit disappointed, quite a few others were too. Even the 'normals' seemed pretty impressed by the HST and there were quite a few unfavourable comments about the the replacement 170. Good to hear the number of people that noticed the difference in quiality between the two.

Perceived increase in quality is all well and good, but passengers won't be impressed with a nice train that breaks down all the time.

I think the fundamental decider on whether or not the HSTs are a success will be relability .

 

[route101]

Didn't see in First as I was up the other end but that's interesting to know that there are USB ports there just in case.

Was on Scotrail 158 , and one side of coach had USB and plug and my side just a plug .

 

[swaldman]

Regarding the USB in standard, I can't help but think the decision was due to the fragility of USB

All it takes is people trying to force in a plug the wrong way round to damage to the centre insert then it's now useless.

Don't have that issue with a 3 pin plug.

I know that with the Jet727 bus service in Aberdeen they fitted USB ports at seats as the type of traveller was less likely to (either accidentally or on purpose) damage the port.
But the rest of the fleet didn't get them as there were concerns about less considerate passengers damaging them

13A plugs are fundamentally more flexible - if you have the right charger you can plug anything into them - but USB ones have the advantage of needing less power (1A@5V = 5W, compared to perhaps 40W or more for a laptop). I always assumed that the reason the Far North 158s got USB only was that the power wasn't available to offer more at every seat?

 

[Aictos]

13A plugs are fundamentally more flexible - if you have the right charger you can plug anything into them - but USB ones have the advantage of needing less power (1A@5V = 5W, compared to perhaps 40W or more for a laptop). I always assumed that the reason the Far North 158s got USB only was that the power wasn't available to offer more at every seat?

The Far North 158s now have USB sockets? Since when?

 

[_toommm_]

13A plugs are fundamentally more flexible - if you have the right charger you can plug anything into them - but USB ones have the advantage of needing less power (1A@5V = 5W, compared to perhaps 40W or more for a laptop). I always assumed that the reason the Far North 158s got USB only was that the power wasn't available to offer more at every seat?

The problem with plugs in terms of on the railway is that some chargers can draw up to 90 watts. My 2017 MacBook Pro is a 75?? Watt charger, and my QuickCharge3.0 charger for my Samsung S8 can draw up to 20 amps alone. If 50% of the people did that, it's quite a current draw for on a 158, whereas USB 2.0 (I doubt they'd invest in 3.0 or above) only draws 5A max I believe.

 

[JP66725]

Looks like there is a ScotRail HST bound for ZH (Glasgow Works) from Aberdeen on Monday 29/10

5T06 1058 Aberdeen Clayhills - Glasgow Works......... Then followed by a 5T06 1701 ex Glasgow Works - Aberdeen Clayhills

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with plugs in terms of on the railway is that some chargers can draw up to 90 watts. My 2017 MacBook Pro is a 75?? Watt charger, and my QuickCharge3.0 charger for my Samsung S8 can draw up to 20 amps alone. If 50% of the people did that, it's quite a current draw for on a 158, whereas USB 2.0 (I doubt they'd invest in 3.0 or above) only draws 5A max I believe.

In practice they'll need to keep upgrading USB ports as standards change - whereas the 13A socket is going nowhere any time soon.

But on an old DMU where it is difficult to get enough power they are better than nothing. Personally, though, I have a power bank and can't envisage a situation where I'd be carrying a cable but not the power bank, so I haven't used on-train sockets for ages - the only use case I'd have for them involves a 13A socket for my laptop if needing to work.

 

[_toommm_]

In practice they'll need to keep upgrading USB ports as standards change - whereas the 13A socket is going nowhere any time soon.

But on an old DMU where it is difficult to get enough power they are better than nothing. Personally, though, I have a power bank and can't envisage a situation where I'd be carrying a cable but not the power bank, so I haven't used on-train sockets for ages - the only use case I'd have for them involves a 13A socket for my laptop if needing to work.

Same - I carry 10,000mAH with me whenever I'm out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Same - I carry 10,000mAH with me whenever I'm out.

26800 myself, which is the most you can take on a plane (100Wh) without special arrangements and so is the maximum size you tend to see. That's a week's worth of phone charging, or 3-4 days if I'm wanting to charge the iPad a couple of times as well.

It cost about 40 quid, which given that a modern smartphone is well north of 500 quid I don't see why anyone wouldn't have one (or a smaller one, if easier to carry - cheaper too). While I tend not to use m-tickets for other reasons, I wouldn't even consider using them without carrying such a device.

 

[Esker-pades]

The Far North 158s now have USB sockets? Since when?

Since they were refurbished at least a year ago.

 

[mde]

Not sure if other Scotrail classes have this wee picture in the loo, nice touch!
View attachment 54374 ]

Think someone at ScotRail's marketing department has been watching Disney-Pixar's Cars (the eyes)… it's a nice touch