Southeastern train passengers stuck for 3 hours as train fails yards from Victoria

[ScotGG]

Not sure SE processes have got much better since earlier this year when similar happened at Lewisham.

Today it looks like power went off, toilets not working, intercom stopped too.

A report criticised the company for similar issue which saw passengers leaving the train earlier this year.

http://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk...ded-for-three-hours-just-yards-from-platform/

A Southeastern train has ground to a halt with passengers left stuck on board for hours once again.

This time it’s at Victoria station yards from platforms, yet passengers have not been disembarked for three hours.
Southeastern are pleading for passengers not to leave of their own accord, but their processes for enabling passengers to leave appear lacking, to say the least. Continual messages have said help coming soon as hours passed....

 

[30907]

Platforms 3-8 blocked. Twitter suggests it was an hour before giving up on attempts to get the train moving, another hour to get an assisting train on site, and then it wouldn't couple so evacuated coach by coach. Very difficult location surrounded by electrified tracks, wonder how it was done?

 

[Intermodal]

Platforms 3-8 blocked. Twitter suggests it was an hour before giving up on attempts to get the train moving, another hour to get an assisting train on site, and then it wouldn't couple so evacuated coach by coach. Very difficult location surrounded by electrified tracks, wonder how it was done?

Clearly the power would have been off, so just trip hazards remain.

I think SE are lucky an uncontrolled evacuation did not occur given the time scales and proximity to the station. I can only think that whoever was on board did an excellent job of communicating.

The general public have no tolerance for literally being in sight of their destination yet being held from it, nor should they. Whilst evacuation is not easy I think it was the common sense answer here if only to prevent an uncontrolled evacuation - there was no shortage of staff apparently either. Again, I think they were very lucky people stayed put.

 

[bionic]

The driver did manage to get the brakes off but due to egresses being continually pulled they couldn't get the train back into Vic.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The driver did manage to get the brakes off but due to egresses being continually pulled they couldn't get the train back into Vic.

SO extremely annoying that - time for a publicity blitz on this - but the people who do it , probably hardly ever lift their eyes from their precious phones and would not deign to read a poster / listen to PA announcements etc.

Sorry - rant there !

 

[Intermodal]

The driver did manage to get the brakes off but due to egresses being continually pulled they couldn't get the train back into Vic.

Ah, thanks.

I guess I was right to be sceptical they remained. So it was just as last time, it seems.

I also missed this line in the article:

Passengers also report little communication from the driver. Perhaps the power died as happened before.

If this is true, I cannot blame passengers for pulling egresses. I think we need to be able to relate a bit more. People are not going to stay if they are not aware of the processes underway to help them. It's unreasonable to expect that. I am aware that the response on this forum will be "idiots" "don't have a clue" "crazy" "suicidal", but I really think we need to take our railway hats off and look at the situation from their perspective.

 

[Intermodal]

SO extremely annoying that - time for a publicity blitz on this - but the people who do it , probably hardly ever lift their eyes from their precious phones and would not deign to read a poster / listen to PA announcements etc.

I think you raise a good point. The general public do not know what to do if trapped on a train, they do not know the consequences of an uncontrolled evacuation in any sense, and they only see that they are being unreasonably held meters from their destination. To compound all this, communication may be sparse, no toilet is available, it is potentially hot, cramped and dark. Unless there is someone standing face to face with them, delivering the information they need, they are not going to comprehend the situation.

 

[jamesst]

Ah, thanks.

I guess I was right to be sceptical they remained. So it was just as last time, it seems.

I also missed this line in the article:


If this is true, I cannot blame passengers for pulling egresses. I think we need to be able to relate a bit more. People are not going to stay if they are not aware of the processes underway to help them. It's unreasonable to expect that. I am aware that the response on this forum will be "idiots" "don't have a clue" "crazy" "suicidal", but I really think we need to take our railway hats off and look at the situation from their perspective.

But at the same let's be honest about the public aswell. I had a close relative stuck on a train once for nearly 2 hours. She said numerous times the traincrew were excellent and couldn't of done more.
Yet the local rag quoted passengers from the same incident saying they'd received no information

 

[Intermodal]

But at the same let's be honest about the public aswell. I had a close relative stuck on a train once for nearly 2 hours. She said numerous times the traincrew were excellent and couldn't of done more.
Yet the local rag quoted passengers from the same incident saying they'd received no information

I totally accept/agree with your point. There is always two sides to every story which is why I am being very careful to say there "may" have been poor communication. It may even be the case that there was good communication to some passengers but not to others, if the PA was broken! Nothing is black and white and without knowing the full details I can only comment on what I do know.

 

[bionic]

Apparently the train was close enough to the platform that they were making station PAs that could be heard by people at the rear of the train. BTP were also in attendance at the end of the platform so that may have deterred the egress pullers from actually climbing down. It seems the unit was gapped and the plan was that the driver would use the gradient to roll back in but due to the egresses couldn't actually do it. Presumably after enough of his main res had leaked off he was snookered anyway.

 

[Ethano92]

If this is true, I cannot blame passengers for pulling egresses. I think we need to be able to relate a bit more. People are not going to stay if they are not aware of the processes underway to help them. It's unreasonable to expect that. I am aware that the response on this forum will be "idiots" "don't have a clue" "crazy" "suicidal", but I really think we need to take our railway hats off and look at the situation from their perspective.

Couldn't agree more. Since I don't have much 'railway' knowledge when it comes to evacuations (except for obviously the hazards and dangers), I'm going to approach this from a passengers point of view.

Considering how close they were to the station, there was little excuse to be stuck for so long.

You can call the public idiots and suicidal but what about calling the railway unorganized and incompetent. Although I don't know all the details of this incident, I get a hunch things could've and should've been done faster.

 

[30907]

Apparently the train was close enough to the platform that they were making station PAs that could be heard by people at the rear of the train.

The end of Platforms 1/2 (shown in the only photo I've seen) is nearly 8 cars length from the end of 3/4, so announcements could have been heard quite some way out.

I can understand why TOCs focus on moving the disabled train, but in this case might it have been better to attempt a train-to-train transfer at an earlier stage? I don't claim to know the answer.

 

[Robertj21a]

It will certainly be interesting to hear what communication was actually given to the passengers. I hope it's not just a repeat of previous issues. Passengers shouldn't be stranded for hours on end so close to 'safety'.

 

[MCSHF007]

Apologists for passenger stupidity (in excusing "self-evacuation") would presumably also support such action when (as is not unknown by any means) an aircraft is held outside an airport terminal gate for any period of time deemed unacceptable by individual passengers.

 

[1e10]

Apologists for passenger stupidity (in excusing "self-evacuation") would presumably also support such action when (as is not unknown by any means) an aircraft is held outside an airport terminal gate for any period of time deemed unacceptable by individual passengers.

I think the notion is that a controlled evacuation can and should be performed before 3 hours passes.

 

[bramling]

Apologists for passenger stupidity (in excusing "self-evacuation") would presumably also support such action when (as is not unknown by any means) an aircraft is held outside an airport terminal gate for any period of time deemed unacceptable by individual passengers.

Two wrongs don’t make a right, and three hours is excessive by any measure when so close to a station. If the facts are as reported then it is a farce.

 

[theageofthetra]

Let me guess. Did it leave p3 on a single yellow and was taken accross to P2? Was it a 4 car?

 

[Ethano92]

Apologists for passenger stupidity (in excusing "self-evacuation") would presumably also support such action when (as is not unknown by any means) an aircraft is held outside an airport terminal gate for any period of time deemed unacceptable by individual passengers.

The difference is you have toilets and water on one. I don't know if this train was full but say it was, on a plane you're also guaranteed a seat.

In general, there's not much comparison; it's much easier to follow a track into the station and up onto the platform as opposed to opening the aircraft door, somehow making it to the ground from such a height, however many metres down, then wandering around the tarmac looking for some sort of entrance to the terminal. Once you're there you can't just leave either, your baggage is still on that plane.

Silly comparison really, it's a bit of a stretch.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the notion is that a controlled evacuation can and should be performed before 3 hours passes.

Far less than that if toilet facilities are not available.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Let me guess. Did it leave p3 on a single yellow and was taken accross to P2? Was it a 4 car?

Forgive me, for I am an Eastern Region person but how is it possible for a 3rd rail to be gapped in this day and age? Are four shoes not enough, even on crossing moves?

 

[edwin_m]

The difference is you have toilets and water on one. I don't know if this train was full but say it was, on a plane you're also guaranteed a seat.

In general, there's not much comparison; it's much easier to follow a track into the station and up onto the platform as opposed to opening the aircraft door, somehow making it to the ground from such a height, however many metres down, then wandering around the tarmac looking for some sort of entrance to the terminal. Once you're there you can't just leave either, your baggage is still on that plane.

Silly comparison really, it's a bit of a stretch.

Also on board an aircraft everybody is in sight of a crew member, and during critical parts of the flight there is a crew member by each door. That's never going to be possible on a train, so the railway has to find other ways of keeping people informed and reassured.

 

[bionic]

Forgive me, for I am an Eastern Region person but how is it possible for a 3rd rail to be gapped in this day and age? Are four shoes not enough, even on crossing moves?

Victoria is a nightmare for DC units getting gapped. Happens a fair bit there.

 

[30907]

Let me guess. Did it leave p3 on a single yellow and was taken accross to P2? Was it a 4 car?

Didn't cross to p2 from photo evidence. Would have been easier to evacuate if it had.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Victoria is a nightmare for DC units getting gapped. Happens a fair bit there.

As always my heart goes out to the staff and passengers stuck in the thick of it but it does seem a bit odd that if it is a regular occurance that the system isn’t a bit more geared up to dealing with it.

I thought that LUL could use ‘jump leads’ in these circumstances (to connect isolated shoes to a nearby bit of third rail that was still energised). This would at least deal with the dead PA and de-activated toilet issue. I never did understand why the main line system didn’t seem to have them. (This being despite having worked in third rail areas in North London, on Merseyside and different parts of the Southern.)

 

[DarloRich]

whilst it shouldn't take as long as it can to sort issues like this out it is far more complex to do so than many experts here seem to think. It is hardly worth debating those points as the judge jury and executioner have already pronounced guilt.

There is also, and this is something that many posters need to grasp, a responsibility on the passengers not to behave badly in similar situations. Many people are irrationally & loudly impatient and self important.

OBVIOUSLY and for the avoidance of doubt ( and it shouldn't be necessary to state this but on this board you have to spell things outs very clearly) 3 hours is TO LONG to sort this problem out!

 

[talltim]

The outline plan for this type of incident needs to include the statistical probability of self evacuation over the time spent stuck. Ignore whether it is right or wrong, it happens and it needs to be factored in.
There’s no point saying ‘we can’t turn the power off and evacuate because that would strand other trains’ when all that happens is that you leave the train there a bit long and you are forced to turn the power off in a hurry because people have gone on the track and trains get stranded.

 

[DarloRich]

The outline plan for this type of incident needs to include the statistical probability of self evacuation over the time spent stuck. Ignore whether it is right or wrong, it happens and it needs to be factored in.
There’s no point saying ‘we can’t turn the power off and evacuate because that would strand other trains’ when all that happens is that you leave the train there a bit long and you are forced to turn the power off in a hurry because people have gone on the track and trains get stranded.

I don't disagree - however there needs to be some realism. I have been in situations like this ( not as bad) where people are getting twitchy after about 10 minutes. I suspect there are people like that here who feel the train should be evacuated after an unfeasibly short period of time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apologists for passenger stupidity (in excusing "self-evacuation") would presumably also support such action when (as is not unknown by any means) an aircraft is held outside an airport terminal gate for any period of time deemed unacceptable by individual passengers.

How about a bus? Oh, yeah, you'd just get off.

 

[LUYMun]

Seeing the train is a 465/466, I think there have to be more gangways at the front of the train (like the Electrostars) so passengers can evacuate in an incident like this.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Don't know what time the errant train was rescued but I was at Victoria at 6pm yesterday with metro services running, but with delays of 30min. Great for my wife and I as we got off the Circle line thinking we've just missed the 17.58 but it pulled in around 18.05 by which time a very large crowd had gathered on the platform