Arriva Rail North DOO

[Carlisle]

. Just because the franchise agreement says one thing does not mean that the TOC has not discussed an amendment with the DFT and have approached the union to discuss this .
.

if your referring to any hypothetical amendments connected to the proposed DCO,, how would the union know ? , as judging by everything they’ve said publicly, they’ll only participate meaningfully in negotiations if they’re promised a fully safety critical guard on every train from the outset .

 

[a_c_skinner]

they’ll only participate meaningfully in negotiations if they’re promised a fully safety critical guard on every train from the outset .

Then it will end like the miners' strike having gone on like the miners' strike. Alas.

 

[Robertj21a]

Then it will end like the miners' strike having gone on like the miners' strike. Alas.

Mick Cash and his merry men in the RMT seem to aspire to follow in the steps of Scargill and the National Union of Mineworkers (NUM). Interestingly, the final chapter could well be similar.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Heaton Chapel's last train this Saturday is the 14:33 to Manchester??? Or should I take things with a pinch of salt until midweek when the real timetable will be published?

 

[northwichcat]

Mick Cash and his merry men in the RMT seem to aspire to follow in the steps of Scargill and the National Union of Mineworkers (NUM). Interestingly, the final chapter could well be similar.

I think the final chapter will be very different. The coal miners were forced out of the industry with nowhere else to go with areas where there were a high number were employed as coal miners having high unemployment for a long time afterwards. DOO/DCO won't result in mass redundancies and is more likely to affect those from other industries who are hopeful of getting a new well paid job in the rail industry.

Heaton Chapel's last train this Saturday is the 14:33 to Manchester??? Or should I take things with a pinch of salt until midweek when the real timetable will be published?

Looks like the Alderley Edge to Manchester service (which is the one which serves Heaton Chapel on strike days) is being reduced for the next strike day with fewer services and no trains running to Alderley Edge, with all services starting or terminating at Wilmslow. Buxton also has as many services as required by the franchise agreement on a normal Saturday but with an earlier finish - why do Northern see the Buxton line as so special?

 

[LOL The Irony]

why do Northern see the Buxton line as so special?

Only explication I can come up with us in case the Cat & Fiddle closes.

 

[PR1Berske]

This thread will soon reach it's first anniversary.

What has changed, developed, improved, deteriorated, for both sides of the DOO debate in this time?

 

[northwichcat]

Only explication I can come up with us in case the Cat & Fiddle closes.

Cat & Fiddle is part of the A537 which runs Buxton-Macclesfield and then on to Knutsford. The A6 is the road parallel to the Buxton line which the 199 bus runs along between Buxton and Stockport.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I think the final chapter will be very different. The coal miners were forced out of the industry with nowhere else to go with areas where there were a high number were employed as coal miners having high unemployment for a long time afterwards. DOO/DCO won't result in mass redundancies and is more likely to affect those from other industries who are hopeful of getting a new well paid job in the rail industry.



Looks like the Alderley Edge to Manchester service (which is the one which serves Heaton Chapel on strike days) is being reduced for the next strike day with fewer services and no trains running to Alderley Edge, with all services starting or terminating at Wilmslow. Buxton also has as many services as required by the franchise agreement on a normal Saturday but with an earlier finish - why do Northern see the Buxton line as so special?

Most folks in the 'Edge have cars so could drive/get a lift the couple of miles up to Wilmslow, but the (even more) shocking service this Saturday, if that is the final timetable, means that I think the majority of said passengers will just give up completely if they haven't already. 14:33 last train and only every two hours (so 4 trains in the whole day!) you might as well just run none at all - it wouldn't look much less professional.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most folks in the 'Edge have cars so could drive/get a lift the couple of miles up to Wilmslow, but the (even more) shocking service this Saturday, if that is the final timetable, means that I think the majority of said passengers will just give up completely if they haven't already. 14:33 last train and only every two hours (so 4 trains in the whole day!) you might as well just run none at all - it wouldn't look much less professional.

Single shift I guess?

Can they split shifts? They'd be better having a train at 9am and a return train at 5pm or similar if you want a minimal service to be in any way useful.

 

[northwichcat]

Most folks in the 'Edge have cars so could drive/get a lift the couple of miles up to Wilmslow, but the (even more) shocking service this Saturday, if that is the final timetable, means that I think the majority of said passengers will just give up completely if they haven't already. 14:33 last train and only every two hours (so 4 trains in the whole day!) you might as well just run none at all - it wouldn't look much less professional.

Despite the stereo type about Alderley Edge the area immediately around Alderley Edge station contains a number of terrace houses originally built as council houses where those who have cars have to park them on the road. Even ignoring that you're forgetting they need to park them somewhere if they are going somewhere - Wilmslow station car park is often full even on a non-strike day.

However, as Alderley Edge has an Arriva bus service to Wilmslow (who are supposed to accept Northern tickets on strike days) it's not a big issue and the lack of service at stations between Alderley Edge and Crewe is a bigger issue. However, the point is Northern seem to be planning to use fewer resources on that route compared to previous strike days.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Despite the stereo type about Alderley Edge the area immediately around Alderley Edge station contains a number of terrace houses originally built as council houses where those who have cars have to park them on the road. Even ignoring that you're forgetting they need to park them somewhere if they are going somewhere - Wilmslow station car park is often full even on a non-strike day.

However, as Alderley Edge has an Arriva bus service to Wilmslow (who are supposed to accept Northern tickets on strike days) it's not a big issue and the lack of service at stations between Alderley Edge and Crewe is a bigger issue. However, the point is Northern seem to be planning to use fewer resources on that route compared to previous strike days.

Quite, and yes I was surprised to see those houses when I first moved to the NW a decade ago! Do like going out now 'n' again in the 'Edge, but that's a little off-topic

Single shift I guess?

Can they split shifts? They'd be better having a train at 9am and a return train at 5pm or similar if you want a minimal service to be in any way useful.

Yes that'd be better - least people could make a day of it in Manchester even if they have to be a little more careful about times than if there were the usual two per hour until late

 

[Jamesrob637]

This thread will soon reach it's first anniversary.

What has changed, developed, improved, deteriorated, for both sides of the DOO debate in this time?

Two-year anniversary, and not a lot from what I can see! If anything, deteriorated. Strikes are continuing, and I suspect will be into the new year.

 

[HowardGWR]

How many staff are employed in the guards' grades on Northern? How many could be redundant (as guards) if DCO was introduced on the maximum number of services (i.e. those that could be fitted with the necessary equipment and corresponding station equipment). Of those no longer required as guards, how many would, at least in theory, be employed as "OBS" or dispatchers or some other function?.
In other words, how many would be made physically redundant if they refused one of the new jobs?
How many guards (not any other OB job) would still be required following modernisation, due to not all services being possible to operate under DCO?

 

[northwichcat]

How many staff are employed in the guards' grades on Northern? How many could be redundant (as guards) if DCO was introduced on the maximum number of services (i.e. those that could be fitted with the necessary equipment and corresponding station equipment). Of those no longer required as guards, how many would, at least in theory, be employed as "OBS" or dispatchers or some other function?.
In other words, how many would be made physically redundant if they refused one of the new jobs?
How many guards (not any other OB job) would be required following modernisation, due to not all services being possible to operate under DCO.

I don't think anyone can answer that question. It could be that Northern actually employ more staff post-DCO introduction - they are supposed to introduce more services and DCO doesn't automatically mean staffing reductions like was the case with the Merseyrail proposal. It could also be that staff employed as guards work some DCO services as an AFC role and other services as guards at least in the short term.

It seems the majority of the stock won't be suitable for DCO operation but the stock that is will be concentrated on the longer routes allowing for the percentage of passenger mileage as DCO to be much higher than the percentage of rolling stock which is DCO compatible.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Despite the stereo type about Alderley Edge the area immediately around Alderley Edge station contains a number of terrace houses originally built as council houses where those who have cars have to park them on the road. Even ignoring that you're forgetting they need to park them somewhere if they are going somewhere - Wilmslow station car park is often full even on a non-strike day.

However, as Alderley Edge has an Arriva bus service to Wilmslow (who are supposed to accept Northern tickets on strike days) it's not a big issue and the lack of service at stations between Alderley Edge and Crewe is a bigger issue. However, the point is Northern seem to be planning to use fewer resources on that route compared to previous strike days.

Regarding the Alderley Edge to Crewe section Arrival Trains Wales were calling additionally at Sandbach, Holmes Chapel and Alderley Edge prior to engineering work between Shrewsbury and Newport (I think short turnarounds at Shrewsbury may be affecting this and the fact its now 'TfW Rail').
As these have not been advertised by Northern for the last few months and the new Wales franchise no longer being operated by Arrival, does anyone know if this will continue on strike days?

 

[northwichcat]

Regarding the Alderley Edge to Crewe section Arrival Trains Wales were calling additionally at Sandbach, Holmes Chapel and Alderley Edge prior to engineering work between Shrewsbury and Newport (I think short turnarounds at Shrewsbury may be affecting this and the fact its now 'TfW Rail').
As these have not been advertised by Northern for the last few months and the new Wales franchise no longer being operated by Arrival, does anyone know if this will continue on strike days?

ATW stopped helping out Northern on strike days a couple of months ago, in preparation for the new franchise. As well as the additional Manchester to South Wales stops, ATW managers were acting as emergency guards on Chester-Altrincham and Newton-le-Willows to Manchester services and making additional calls at Particroft. I think the only helping out in the past few weeks has been Northern loaning ATW 2 x 150s on a strike date which coincided with Chester Races.

 

[Carlisle]

This thread will soon reach it's first anniversary.

What has changed, developed, improved, deteriorated, for both sides of the DOO debate in this time?

It was entirely predictable, once Merseyrail and GA settled for substantially less than their original proposals, escalation of the other related disputes by the union was always inevitable, railways are in many ways a natural monopoly, even if they’re theoretically divided into private TOCs

 

[Bletchleyite]

It was entirely predictable, once Merseyrail and GA settled for substantially less than their original proposals, escalation of the other related disputes by the union was always inevitable, railways are in many ways a natural monopoly, even if they’re theoretically divided into private TOCs

Has Merseyrail *actually* settled? There were a load of rumours, but nothing has been made public about how they will work, though it does sound like OBS in some form, paid for in part by fares increases and by ticket office destaffing at quieter stations.

 

[northwichcat]

Has Merseyrail *actually* settled? There were a load of rumours, but nothing has been made public about how they will work, though it does sound like OBS in some form, paid for in part by fares increases and by ticket office destaffing at quieter stations.

Not really no, the RMT have ended their guard dispute but how exactly things will work and whether ASLEF or TSSA have objections are unclear.

 

[Chrisyd]

A friend asked me this question at the weekend and I will admit it was completely outside of my level of knowledge....
They commented that when the new trains arrive, which don't need guards Northern can run those over the strikes! So what is stopping Northern from running them without guards thus negating the guards being on strike on that route.
I appreciate that drivers have yet to agree to open and close the doors, but if they do, could this be what happens?

 

[muz379]

if your referring to any hypothetical amendments connected to the proposed DCO,, how would the union know ? , as judging by everything they’ve said publicly, they’ll only participate meaningfully in negotiations if they’re promised a fully safety critical guard on every train from the outset .

my comment was more in relation to changes to ticket office staffing . Which the unions representing those in ticket officers would know about because the company would have approached those unions to discuss any changes . But then I guess you could say of the guards dispute if the TOC and DFT had agreed a change to the franchise agreement which would be relevant to the dispute the expectation is that the TOC would surely want to let the union know at the first opportunity .

Whilst there have been no "negotiations" there has still been contact between the union and company . And obviously if there was a material change to the franchise agreement I am pretty sure the company would want to communicate this to the RMT asap so the dispute could be resolved .

I know that the same union the RMT represents a lot of ticket office staff as well as the guards . But it is actually a different group of reps who would be discussing changes which would have an effect on any retail and station grades .

A friend asked me this question at the weekend and I will admit it was completely outside of my level of knowledge....
They commented that when the new trains arrive, which don't need guards Northern can run those over the strikes! So what is stopping Northern from running them without guards thus negating the guards being on strike on that route.
I appreciate that drivers have yet to agree to open and close the doors, but if they do, could this be what happens?

There are I believe some technical problems with the new trains which means when they enter service they are expected to actually be operated conventionally by a guard and driveer . So even if there was an agreement for drivers to do the doors there might be technical reasons why these trains could still not be run on strike days with just a driver .

But as the dispute goes on and those technical problems are resolved and a method of work for DOO is drawn up and trained to drivers there could come a point when any stock which is DOO capable can run over routes which have been risk assessed for DOO . Of course depending on what ASLEF also agree as exceptional circumstances running without the second member of staff (if the southern agreement is the template) . I think that point is still quite far off yet . No member of traincrew has even been trained on the new units yet .

They might still only be able to call at limited stops though depending on station staffing levels along routes they will operate .

 

[HowardGWR]

I don't think anyone can answer that question. It could be that Northern actually employ more staff post-DCO introduction - they are supposed to introduce more services and DCO doesn't automatically mean staffing reductions like was the case with the Merseyrail proposal. It could also be that staff employed as guards work some DCO services as an AFC role and other services as guards at least in the short term.

It seems the majority of the stock won't be suitable for DCO operation but the stock that is will be concentrated on the longer routes allowing for the percentage of passenger mileage as DCO to be much higher than the percentage of rolling stock which is DCO compatible.

It seems to me that the answers to the questions I posed, are essential to any meaningful dialogue between management and unions, and also by the way, this debate here.
To save looking back, my last question, of several, was

"How many guards (not any other OB job) would still be required following modernisation, due to not all services being possible to operate under DCO?"
It seems to me essential for the management to put this figure, and the figure for how many will still have a job anyway, of some sort, into the public domain. In that event, if all staff were to remain in employment, the RMT would not have a leg to stand on. If there are to be hundreds of forced redundancies, on the other hand, then this figure would be equally important for the RMT case.

On the comparison with Merseyrail, I read the provisional agreement to be that the former guards were to simply be 'on board' without actually being required to do anything. They would simply be carted around and paid by either the transport authority (local council taxpayers) and /or fare rises.

That does not seem to me to be tenable so there must be still something still to be agreed there.

 

[scrapy]

Looks like the Alderley Edge to Manchester service (which is the one which serves Heaton Chapel on strike days) is being reduced for the next strike day with fewer services and no trains running to Alderley Edge, with all services starting or terminating at Wilmslow. Buxton also has as many services as required by the franchise agreement on a normal Saturday but with an earlier finish - why do Northern see the Buxton line as so special?

Probably because they have a train crew depot at Buxton and it's a way to get drivers into Manchester to do other work.

 

[JamesT]

It seems to me that the answers to the questions I posed, are essential to any meaningful dialogue between management and unions, and also by the way, this debate here.
To save looking back, my last question, of several, was

"How many guards (not any other OB job) would still be required following modernisation, due to not all services being possible to operate under DCO?"
It seems to me essential for the management to put this figure, and the figure for how many will still have a job anyway, of some sort, into the public domain. In that event, if all staff were to remain in employment, the RMT would not have a leg to stand on. If there are to be hundreds of forced redundancies, on the other hand, then this figure would be equally important for the RMT case.

On the comparison with Merseyrail, I read the provisional agreement to be that the former guards were to simply be 'on board' without actually being required to do anything. They would simply be carted around and paid by either the transport authority (local council taxpayers) and /or fare rises.

That does not seem to me to be tenable so there must be still something still to be agreed there.

The number that will stay as guards presumably depends on exactly which routes move over to DCO etc. My understanding is that Northern initially tried to discuss this with the RMT but the RMT refused to talk about it as they don't accept any DCO.
As to the follow on to your question, Northern have previously stated that there will be no compulsory redundancies, all current guards would be offered a role going forward and they would retain their current pay and benefits. Does that meet your definition of the RMT not having a leg to stand on?

 

[HowardGWR]

The number that will stay as guards presumably depends on exactly which routes move over to DCO etc. My understanding is that Northern initially tried to discuss this with the RMT but the RMT refused to talk about it as they don't accept any DCO.
As to the follow on to your question, Northern have previously stated that there will be no compulsory redundancies, all current guards would be offered a role going forward and they would retain their current pay and benefits. Does that meet your definition of the RMT not having a leg to stand on?

On the face of it, yes. If the new roles were seen as more of a dead end job, perhaps that could be an objection, but from any operational shift job (I've done them) there is only one way up, which is either to attempt to become a supervisor, or undertake some course of educational or other improvement to aspire to something else. Having done shift work, I have an opinion why that can lead to some militant attitudes, rather than cooperative ones, but I don't imagine anyone is interested in my views. I was just interested to learn more facts about why there is not more factual information being brought to bear on the situation.

 

[CHAPS2034]

Regarding the Alderley Edge to Crewe section Arrival Trains Wales were calling additionally at Sandbach, Holmes Chapel and Alderley Edge prior to engineering work between Shrewsbury and Newport (I think short turnarounds at Shrewsbury may be affecting this and the fact its now 'TfW Rail').
As these have not been advertised by Northern for the last few months and the new Wales franchise no longer being operated by Arrival, does anyone know if this will continue on strike days?

I travelled from Stockport to Crewe last Saturday morning on the TfW 1040 service. It did not make any additional calls, just stopping at Wilmslow as usual.

 

[woodmally]

The number that will stay as guards presumably depends on exactly which routes move over to DCO etc. My understanding is that Northern initially tried to discuss this with the RMT but the RMT refused to talk about it as they don't accept any DCO.
As to the follow on to your question, Northern have previously stated that there will be no compulsory redundancies, all current guards would be offered a role going forward and they would retain their current pay and benefits. Does that meet your definition of the RMT not having a leg to stand on?

It's not only they don't accept DCO. They are lying to the general public saying Northern are getting rid of the guards. They even made a video unguarded. Yet the reality of it is a change of role.

 

[Tomnick]

It's not only they don't accept DCO. They are lying to the general public saying Northern are getting rid of the guards. They even made a video unguarded. Yet the reality of it is a change of role.

In the future, if you’re on a train with no second member of staff (because someone’s gone sick, or because there’s a vacancy and they don’t want to pay overtime to cover it, or because they haven’t bothered recruiting because there’s no financial incentive to bother, etc.) then they might as well have got rid of them altogether. Once the guarantee of a second member of staff goes, it’s a slippery slope.

 

[CN75]

In the future, if you’re on a train with no second member of staff (because someone’s gone sick, or because there’s a vacancy and they don’t want to pay overtime to cover it, or because they haven’t bothered recruiting because there’s no financial incentive to bother, etc.) then they might as well have got rid of them altogether. Once the guarantee of a second member of staff goes, it’s a slippery slope.

During their dispute Southern addressed this concern by constantly stating they would employ OBS at standard train crew ratios and agreed an ‘exceptional circumstances’ list with ASLEF. The result is Southern getting all the performance and customer service benefits they wanted and the OBS remaining in secure employment. The RMT is still in dispute and has nothing to show in over two years for how they have influenced or affected the outcome except plenty of spare membership cards. Perhaps it is all positive evidence that the TOC rather than the RMT genuinely has the best interests of it’s employees at heart?

History does not support the slippery slope argument either. London Overground simply gave notice they would remove guards outright and following a single weekend of industrial action under Bob Crow’s leadership, that was pretty much that. There was no alternative on board position created. LTS rail simply pulled their guards off the new fleet when it came in after privatisation. Gatwick Express went DOO after getting rid of slam door trains in 2005. Barriers were resisted at Gatwick for years by the airport, and the DfT then required Southern to install them at Gatwick and Victoria and re-allocate the ticket collecting staff to man them, which Southern duly did. Realising their mistake, in the latest franchise the DfT required Southern to provide on board staff and now every Gatwick Express has a fully trained On Board Supervisor on it being paid somewhat more than the ticket collectors were.