December 2018 timetable changes (some now confirmed scrapped) - contagion spreads

[BMIFlyer]

So you are saying that the Rail North report is wrong and the 10 minute turnrounds will be coming back in May, so that the Newcastle and Middlesbrough diagrams can be separated again?

Maybe they will swap the timings around? But yes the Mk5A stock will not be going any further north than Darlington.

For starters, no Newcastle drivers will sign those trains.

 

[geoffk]

Thanks. There's no realistic way of altering the south end of the loop as it's on the outside of the curve - you'd have to extend the loop quite a way on what is currently non-railway land.

I thought it was 20 mph going into the loop; I know it's only 15 coming out.

 

[geoffk]

The Mk5A's will be going from Man Airport to Middlesbrough and Liverpool to Scarborough. There will be one diagram to Middlesbrough that utilises a class 802 as well IF the plan to run ECS from Middlesbrough to Saltburn and/or Redcar to change ends goes ahead, due to being 1x Mk5A set short (requires 14 loco hauled sets with the new plan and we only have 13).

Liverpool to the seaside requires loco hauled 6 sets, 1 set will be on maintenance and the other 6 sets will be on the Middlesbrough turns. Will need 1 class 802 (will be a 185 until then) to work Middlesbrough diagram number 7.

A silly question perhaps, but why were only 13 sets ordered when 14 are needed?

 

[BMIFlyer]

A silly question perhaps, but why were only 13 sets ordered when 14 are needed?

When ordered, they only needed 13: 12 in service and one on maintenance.

Since then the way they will be operated has changed and they will now require 13+1 set of 185 or 802 to cover.

See earlier in the thread about Saltburn.

 

[geoffk]

When ordered, they only needed 13: 12 in service and one on maintenance.
Since then the way they will be operated has changed and they will now require 13+1 set of 185 or 802 to cover.
See earlier in the thread about Saltburn.

I read elsewhere that the proposal is to run ECS to Saltburn just to change ends! Where does the 185 go now to lay over?

 

[Flyingsprinter]

Is it not impossible to order another mk5 rake?
Seems like an oversight.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Is it not impossible to order another mk5 rake?
Seems like an oversight.

The number of overall diagrams hasn't changed, so it would presumably require ordering one less 802 and one more Mk5 rake (or end up with a spare 802)

 

[Kieran1990]

When ordered, they only needed 13: 12 in service and one on maintenance.

Since then the way they will be operated has changed and they will now require 13+1 set of 185 or 802 to cover.

See earlier in the thread about Saltburn.

I believe the plan, saw it posted in the TPE MK5a thread, is for double Class 185 to work one of the Airport- Middlesbrough diagrams.

 

[IanXC]

Given the need to maintain crew traction knowledge, and the potential availability of 185s not required in the base plan, presumably retaining additional 185s and using these to cover the gaps would be the most advantageous and flexible way forward.

 

[BMIFlyer]

The number of overall diagrams hasn't changed, so it would presumably require ordering one less 802 and one more Mk5 rake (or end up with a spare 802)

The number of Mk5A diagrams haven’t changed but the content in each has become longer (by one hour for each trip to MBR) so therefore making one diagram requiring a different traction type.

If the trains could turn in Middlesbrough (change ends on platform there for next working) instead of having to be sent elsewhere (to free up MBR station) then we would have the correct amount of sets.

 

[absolutelymilk]

The number of Mk5A diagrams haven’t changed but the content in each has become longer (by one hour for each trip to MBR) so therefore making one diagram requiring a different traction type.

I meant that the number of overall diagrams TPE have to cover hasn't changed, so the total number of trains they need won't have changed.

 

[geoffk]

Given the need to maintain crew traction knowledge, and the potential availability of 185s not required in the base plan, presumably retaining additional 185s and using these to cover the gaps would be the most advantageous and flexible way forward.

Yes that's true. TPE will also be eyeing-up the Liverpool - Nottingham part of the through Norwich service when it gets split and will want to use 185s on that.

 

[BeHereNow]

I meant that the number of overall diagrams TPE have to cover hasn't changed, so the total number of trains they need won't have changed.

The May 2018 timetable assumed 15 minute turnrounds at Manchester Airport and various destination stations, for journeys of over 2 and a half hours. The revised plan now appears to extend those turnrounds - more circuits means more rolling stock needed to run the same train lengths.

 

[BMIFlyer]

I meant that the number of overall diagrams TPE have to cover hasn't changed, so the total number of trains they need won't have changed.

Actually, from December 18 it has changed, hence why we need more crews by then.

Namely the stoppers and the requirement to find an extra 185 per day Mon to Sat.

 

[Markdvdman]

I tweeted tfw and they confirmed that from December a 6:08am service will start from Merthyr Tydfil. Suits me I suspect Aberdare will get a 5:52am service too.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Actually, from December 18 it has changed, hence why we need more crews by then.

Namely the stoppers and the requirement to find an extra 185 per day Mon to Sat.

Reliable sources indicate that there may be some sub-leased 170s being used on the Leeds - Huddersfield stoppers from December. And that the medium term rolling stock plan may in fact see Mk5a going to Newcastle after all.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Reliable sources indicate that there may be some sub-leased 170s being used on the Leeds - Huddersfield stoppers from December. And that the medium term rolling stock plan may in fact see Mk5a going to Newcastle after all.

I highly doubt it, regarding the 170’s. No one at TPE signs them anymore.

The update we had last week stated that the Mk5s will still be on the routes I mentioned above.

I get what you mean but in all honesty I don’t always believe the so called reliable sources

 

[northwichcat]

If it's Northern 170s being talked about I suspect they'll be a lot of objections if Northern delay their own improvements (extra capacity, rolling stock modernisation and extra services) to help out another operator.

 

[Greybeard33]

If it's Northern 170s being talked about I suspect they'll be a lot of objections if Northern delay their own improvements (extra capacity, rolling stock modernisation and extra services) to help out another operator.

Might it be a "quid pro quo" for Northern continuing to sub-lease 185s for the Airport - Preston - Barrow services after December 2018, if the 195s are not ready to take over by then?

 

[northernchris]

Although Northern running the Leeds - Huddersfield stopper makes much more sense than it being a TPE service

 

[swt_passenger]

Although Northern running the Leeds - Huddersfield stopper makes much more sense than it being a TPE service

The track access application dealing with splitting the TPE stopper into separate services either side of Huddersfield reads as though they want to change back next year. The rights asked for are end dated to revert back to through services from Dec 2019.

Details here, apologies if it has been posted before: http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse documents/track access/1 current track access consultations/02-10-2018 - tpe - 19th sa - section 22 - closes 30 october 2018/form p tpe dec 18 tt changes for external consultation.pdf

 

[northwichcat]

The track access application dealing with splitting the TPE stopper into separate services either side of Huddersfield reads as though they want to change back next year. The rights asked for are end dated to revert back to through services from Dec 2019.

Details here, apologies if it has been posted before: http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse documents/track access/1 current track access consultations/02-10-2018 - tpe - 19th sa - section 22 - closes 30 october 2018/form p tpe dec 18 tt changes for external consultation.pdf

More rolling stock being available and new rolling stock having different attributes to current rolling stock might make the difference between a franchise commitment being possible and it being difficult to run.

Actually thinking about this if Northern diagram some services through Stockport to be new CAF Civities with better acceleration would that help with their pathing?

 

[northernchris]

The track access application dealing with splitting the TPE stopper into separate services either side of Huddersfield reads as though they want to change back next year. The rights asked for are end dated to revert back to through services from Dec 2019.

Details here, apologies if it has been posted before: http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse documents/track access/1 current track access consultations/02-10-2018 - tpe - 19th sa - section 22 - closes 30 october 2018/form p tpe dec 18 tt changes for external consultation.pdf

Thanks for the info, interesting reading

 

[Bevan Price]

Might it be a "quid pro quo" for Northern continuing to sub-lease 185s for the Airport - Preston - Barrow services after December 2018, if the 195s are not ready to take over by then?

I doubt that many (or even any) 195s will be in service by December 2018 -- have they done anything more than acceptance trials yet ??.

It will take more than 2 months to train enough crews to operate them -- even assuming that RMT does not decide to boycott them....
A gradual appearance on selected diagrams next year seems more likely, with full use only in May or December 2019 - if we are lucky...

 

[Greybeard33]

I doubt that many (or even any) 195s will be in service by December 2018 -- have they done anything more than acceptance trials yet ??.

It will take more than 2 months to train enough crews to operate them -- even assuming that RMT does not decide to boycott them....
A gradual appearance on selected diagrams next year seems more likely, with full use only in May or December 2019 - if we are lucky...

In which case Northern will need to continue to sub-lease two 185s after December 2018, since the next timetable change has been put off until May 2019. The Airport - Barrow workings are pathed for 100mph DMUs. Until the 195s are in traffic, Northern's only 100mph DMUs are the 170s. They are based in the North East, and not signed by North West traincrew.

But is TPE not planning to use those two 185s itself from December 2018?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

If it's Northern 170s being talked about I suspect they'll be a lot of objections if Northern delay their own improvements (extra capacity, rolling stock modernisation and extra services) to help out another operator.

Splitting the stopper at Huddersfield and increasing the turn round at MIA from 10 to 40 minutes increases the number of 185s required by 2. This was meant to be covered by the 185s returning from Northern. Northern are however not returning the 185s in time for December so the options are to reduce the number of peak hour 6 car formations or obtain some other stock from somewhere. The late arrival if the Mk5a and the slow progress on crew training will not be helping either.

I understand the plan for the 170s, if it happens, is to use Northern drivers and TPE Guards.

 

[Greybeard33]

The track access application dealing with splitting the TPE stopper into separate services either side of Huddersfield reads as though they want to change back next year. The rights asked for are end dated to revert back to through services from Dec 2019.

Details here, apologies if it has been posted before: http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse documents/track access/1 current track access consultations/02-10-2018 - tpe - 19th sa - section 22 - closes 30 october 2018/form p tpe dec 18 tt changes for external consultation.pdf

The TfN Train Service Planning paper confirms that TPE is only offering the split stopper (and the interworking at Manchester Airport) as a temporary expedient, ending at the December 2019 timetable change:

Whilst TPE have consulted on the implementation of performance related timetable changes prior to December 2019, the permanent implementation of split services and longer turnround times would require extra rolling stock and / or changes to the capacity metrics in the Franchise Agreement. As part of the service development work already underway, Transport for the North is beginning work with TPE to explore the timetable options available from December 2019, to improve performance and ensure that adequate passenger capacity is provided.

https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/Item-5-Train-Service-Planning.pdf

Reading between the lines, this seems to imply a possible further major recast of the TPE North timetable in December 2019. And maybe retention of more 185s and renegotiation of the premium payments that the Franchise Agreement requires First Group to make over the remaining years of the franchise.

 

[3270]

I tweeted tfw and they confirmed that from December a 6:08am service will start from Merthyr Tydfil. Suits me I suspect Aberdare will get a 5:52am service too.

Details of the TfW Dec 2018 changes are here (pages 3 and 4): http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse docu...es 15 november 2018/atw 89th sa form p v5.pdf

 

[northwichcat]

Letter from Andy Burnham on the axing of the proposed Northern 'South Manchester' enhancements. It doesn't exactly say much we don't already know, other than confirming Hazel Grove won't get it's 4th train - with some previously suggesting it was unclear whether the proposed Hazel Grove to Blackpool was an extension of the existing Hazel Grove or an additional Hazel Grove service.

https://twitter.com/knutsfordblog/status/1057658546748305410

 

[js1000]

Letter from Andy Burnham on the axing of the proposed Northern 'South Manchester' enhancements. It doesn't exactly say much we don't already know, other than confirming Hazel Grove won't get it's 4th train - with some previously suggesting it was unclear whether the proposed Hazel Grove to Blackpool was an extension of the existing Hazel Grove or an additional Hazel Grove service.

https://twitter.com/knutsfordblog/status/1057658546748305410

Let's be honest, Hazel Grove will be down the pecking order in terms of priorities for the forseeable future. I suggest it will be 2020 before we hear about additional services from Hazel Grove.

The situation on the Styal line with continual delays to/from Manchester Airport and through Bolton and Stalybridge which is where Northern's woes are and where resources are clearly being expended to tackle this in readiness for the Bolton electrification and 195s operating the Airport to Liverpool express services.

The Leeds-Manchester proposal and Northern lending 170s (in return for the 185s) makes a lot of sense to me. We might actually get stability on the trans-Pennine route and as well to Manchester Airport as a result of the split service. Two birds with one stone springs to mind. Not to mention Northern can bed in the 195s on the Airport to Liverpool Lime Street via Warrington express service before moving onto the Airport to Barrow route next summer with a view to returning the 185s in December next year.