Leeds Bradford Airport - Alternative rail access proposals?

[deltic08]

The proposed station and road link that I mentioned in #12 featured on BBC Look North (Leeds) tonight. I'm not clear what triggered the item but I think the BBC revealed the plans to the people who currently farm the land.

The problem here is two fold; at 650 feet above sea level this is the highest airport in the UK and secondly the proposed station site is in a deep stone-walled cutting prior to entering a tunnel which is a listed structure. There is no room for two platforms without demolishing the walls and cutting back into the hillsides, both sides, at least the width of a platform.

A station here might be close to the airport on a map, but about 200 feet below. It is the gradient that is prohibitive without some form of assistance to help, such as a funicular or cable car. Because of the gradient it would be difficult to build a car park near the station. It would have be the other side of Scotland Lane nearer the airport.

A station has been costed at £25m for just two platforms and there is money available for one from the failed trolley bus scheme but Government has stated that the money must be spent by 2020. I doubt any turf will be broken by then let alone finished! For £25m you could build a rail link from Horsforth to the airport as the junction from the Leeds-Harrogate line has already been built when the line was recently resignalled.

 

[deltic08]

Forgive my scrappy drawing of the line - but outlines the idea - the southbound junction may need to be further south of the tunnel - i was just browsing maps the other day wondering if a rail link ever could exist and if so best way to do it.

View attachment 52606

Impossible due to gradient. As you say, the junction needs to be further towards Horsforth and the terminus is too far from the terminal building.

 

[MarkyT]

The problem here is two fold; at 650 feet above sea level this is the highest airport in the UK and secondly the proposed station site is in a deep stone-walled cutting prior to entering a tunnel which is a listed structure. There is no room for two platforms without demolishing the walls and cutting back into the hillsides, both sides, at least the width of a platform.

A station here might be close to the airport on a map, but about 200 feet below. It is the gradient that is prohibitive without some form of assistance to help, such as a funicular or cable car. Because of the gradient it would be difficult to build a car park near the station. It would have be the other side of Scotland Lane nearer the airport.

A station has been costed at £25m for just two platforms and there is money available for one from the failed trolley bus scheme but Government has stated that the money must be spent by 2020. I doubt any turf will be broken by then let alone finished! For £25m you could build a rail link from Horsforth to the airport as the junction from the Leeds-Harrogate line has already been built when the line was recently resignalled.

Some great points there, and I agree the recent reversing siding pointwork would be perfect for an airport branch junction.

 

[Iskra]

Sorry to be pedantic; it's really playing on my OCD that the thread title incorrectly refers to Bradford-Leeds airport. There is no such place, it's Leeds-Bradford Airport. Can the OP change this?

 

[Halifaxlad]

el. I've walked the track between Dean Grange and Moseley Farm and it's pre

Forgive my scrappy drawing of the line - but outlines the idea - the southbound junction may need to be further south of the tunnel - i was just browsing maps the other day wondering if a rail link ever could exist and if so best way to do it.

View attachment 52606

I like the idea of a triangle although I would position it North of the Airport instead of to the East as it would still be quite a distance away from the entrance. Obviously the majority of this would be underground, except for the station that would have to be connected by lifts, possibly one of those lifts like what they had in the Great Hall at the NRM. With it being around 2.5 miles away from Otley, that is apparently the largest town in West Yorkshire without a railway station and to justify the large cost I would make it into a large park and ride! To make it attractive it would have to be enclosed, I have previously thought about how good it would be if it had a roof like the Eden Project.

 

[deltic08]

I like the idea of a triangle although I would position it North of the Airport instead of to the East as it would still be quite a distance away from the entrance. Obviously the majority of this would be underground, except for the station that would have to be connected by lifts, possibly one of those lifts like what they had in the Great Hall at the NRM. With it being around 2.5 miles away from Otley, that is apparently the largest town in West Yorkshire without a railway station and to justify the large cost I would make it into a large park and ride! To make it attractive it would have to be enclosed, I have previously thought about how good it would be if it had a roof like the Eden Project.

View attachment 53671

Please read my post#31. If you visit the site you will realise that a triangle is impossible so no point speculating. Impossible due to topography.

The position of the station on the map would have to be underground even it a link from Horsforth was possible as the ground rises up sharply to terminal building.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Please read my post#31. If you visit the site you will realise that a triangle is impossible so no point speculating. Impossible due to topography.

The position of the station on the map would have to be underground even it a link from Horsforth was possible as the ground rises up sharply to terminal building.

I was thinking of a triangle underground, that would just come out where the station would be, with lifts ect to connect it up to near the airport entrance. Surely a triangle underground isn't impossible?

I have also have a new idea that doesn't involve a triangle, but more on that later.

 

[deltic08]

I was thinking of a triangle underground, that would just come out where the station would be, with lifts ect to connect it up to near the airport entrance. Surely a triangle underground isn't impossible?

I have also have a new idea that doesn't involve a triangle, but more on that later.

You wouldn't come out where the station would be because you are starting maybe 200 feet lower than the airport that is a mile or less away. The gradient would be too great for heavy rail. Read #31 where it already states this.

 

[daodao]

Finningley near Doncaster should be developed as the main airport for Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, with Yeadon, Kirmington and Middleton St George airfields closed for scheduled services. A railway station could easily be built there and would be used if there were more flights. Trains could run directly from both Sheffield (reversing at Doncaster) and Leeds, with some extending to Lincoln. Passengers from the York and Hull directions could change at Doncaster. Manchester Ringway Airport would be more convenient for towns like Huddersfield on the western edge of Yorkshire.

 

[deltic08]

Finningley near Doncaster should be developed as the main airport for Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, with Yeadon, Kirmington and Middleton St George airfields closed for scheduled services. A railway station could easily be built there and would be used if there were more flights. Trains could run directly from both Sheffield (reversing at Doncaster) and Leeds, with some extending to Lincoln. Passengers from the York and Hull directions could change at Doncaster. Manchester Ringway Airport would be more convenient for towns like Huddersfield on the western edge of Yorkshire.

I don't agree. Of the airports you quote Finningley is the only one in Yorkshire and then only just. The highest concentration of population in Yorkshire is the 5-town circle of Leeds, Bradford, Halifax, Huddersfield, Wakefield and that is where an airport is needed.
I am not a fan of Leeds/Bradford and I think developing Church Fenton would be better as it is adjacent to the Leeds-York line. I speak from experience as in my RAF career I flew at Middleton, Finningley and Church Fenton and all are flatter and better weatherwise than Yeadon.

 

[Ploughman]

Reasons why LBA should not be developed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-en...ts-leeds-bradford-airport-landing-due-to-wind

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-en...port-planes-struggle-to-land-in-wind-and-snow

 

[TBY-Paul]

I don't agree. Of the airports you quote Finningley is the only one in Yorkshire and then only just. The highest concentration of population in Yorkshire is the 5-town circle of Leeds, Bradford, Halifax, Huddersfield, Wakefield and that is where an airport is needed.
I am not a fan of Leeds/Bradford and I think developing Church Fenton would be better as it is adjacent to the Leeds-York line. I speak from experience as in my RAF career I flew at Middleton, Finningley and Church Fenton and all are flatter and better weatherwise than Yeadon.

Moving Leeds/Bradford to Church Fenton would seam like a no-brainer. To the west of the site is/will be the Leeds-York line and HS2, to the east is the ECML. If you link these rail lines with a couple of Delta/Grade separated junctions the distances involved are approximately 1.5- 2.5 miles (depending on a route North or South of the runways). The M1-A1(M) junction at Aberford is only 5 miles to the west. The site could be developed into a major Transport Hub for the Eastern/North Eastern part of the country.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Its only recently (within the past couple of months) that I heard about the idea of developing Church Fenton. I do admit I do like quite like it not just because it would have plenty of land for expansion but because it is away from the surrounding built up area of houses. Although Im skeptical whenever or not it would get off the ground. Pardon the Pun.

 

[daodao]

I don't agree. Of the airports you quote Finningley is the only one in Yorkshire and then only just. The highest concentration of population in Yorkshire is the 5-town circle of Leeds, Bradford, Halifax, Huddersfield, Wakefield and that is where an airport is needed.

South Yorkshire has a significant population and somewhere like Hemsworth is probably close to the centre of population of the West Riding urban conurbation. If there is to be a single airport for this area, it is desirable that it can serve Sheffield as well as Leeds.

 

[Halifaxlad]

South Yorkshire has 'Robin Hoods' airport in Doncaster so think we should leave Sheffield out of this conversation. With regards to Leeds, why not have two? Keep the existing one, if its possible move it in between Guiseley & Otley so its off the top of the hill. I do like its location as it is ideal to serve Leeds, Bradford & Harrogate obviously subject to infrastructure. A second airport at Church Fenton would be ideal to serve Leeds, York & Hull. It would be nice to have something that could potentially rival Manchester eventually allthough may be not for flights to the West.

 

[Ploughman]

South Yorkshire has a significant population and somewhere like Hemsworth is probably close to the centre of population of the West Riding urban conurbation. If there is to be a single airport for this area, it is desirable that it can serve Sheffield as well as Leeds.

An airport at Sheffield was tried but failed not that long ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheffield_City_Airport

 

[TBY-Paul]

South Yorkshire has 'Robin Hoods' airport in Doncaster so think we should leave Sheffield out of this conversation. With regards to Leeds, why not have two? Keep the existing one, if its possible move it in between Guiseley & Otley so its off the top of the hill. I do like its location as it is ideal to serve Leeds, Bradford & Harrogate obviously subject to infrastructure. A second airport at Church Fenton would be ideal to serve Leeds, York & Hull. It would be nice to have something that could potentially rival Manchester eventually allthough may be not for flights to the West.

Sheffield to Church Fenton on HS2 would be less than 30 mins. I'm not too familiar with all the expected timings of HS2, but one of the earlier documents gave the impression that York to Sheffield (Meadowhall) would be around 13mins. I'm not too sure how moving HS2 to Sheffield Midland affects Northbound timings, but less than 30 mins should be possible.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Getting back to the objective of this threat that is more about how rail serves the existing airport as opposed to where the airport is best located.

I have finally draw it without using crayons. Only learn't this recently and had to re-draw the first map I made that was to do with the threat about new high speed lines. Anyway have a look, but basically the airport really needs a station at the airport and not in the middle of no-where.

My proposal is two stages, the first a tunnel that leads directly into a new airport station. The second an extension from there to Otley (the largest town in WY without a station) apparently. Obviously subject to the reopening of at least part of the Otley Line. With also the possibility of a triangle, this would allow all Harrogate trains from Leeds & Bradford, the latter using that chord Mark T outlined earlier, could stop at the airport! Another Ikley service could also be routed this way as well.

No need for any additional services whenever that would be by bus/train/tram.

If the remainder of the 'Northern link' between Ikley & Skipton was reopened then LBA could potentially become more attractive to those from Blackpool/Preston as well as Leeds/Harrogate & York.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1ESHp8z3uhgF8Ryj4DibXIO6Knw9ZobCQ&ll=53.62910741154151,-1.9725466671875438&z=9

Thoughts please?

 

[deltic08]

Green would have to be entirely in tunnel for over two miles and at a very steep gradient to fall from 600 feet to about 100 feet asl.

Secondly, it already takes 38 minutes from Leeds to Harrogate to travel 18 miles(16 as the crow flies) so a detour via a triangle is a no no.

Thirdly the houses on Pool station site are an obstacle.

Otherwise good idea.

 

[mspljd1990]

With the introduction of Azumas travelling to Harrogate, near Horsforth would actually now be a decent location for it, as previously that line was only served by half hourly local stoppers. That way, the airport will have a direct link with Wakefield, Doncaster and even people in the East Midlands.

I wonder if TPE have ever considered including a Harrogate service? I'd imagine people living in Huddersfield would choose MAN over LBA as it's easier to access by public transport. Then there's the possibility of a link with Bradford too.

 

[Halifaxlad]

With the introduction of Azumas travelling to Harrogate, near Horsforth would actually now be a decent location for it, as previously that line was only served by half hourly local stoppers. That way, the airport will have a direct link with Wakefield, Doncaster and even people in the East Midlands.

I wonder if TPE have ever considered including a Harrogate service? I'd imagine people living in Huddersfield would choose MAN over LBA as it's easier to access by public transport. Then there's the possibility of a link with Bradford too.

'Near Horsforth' its that near Horsforth we might as well just lengthen platforms for LNER services.

Obviously this shuttle bus wouldn't be able to get to the station off the main road but a new link road is to be built anyway and could be routed around the back. The joiners would also have to move but I bet this could be done for less than a million!

 

[quantinghome]

Even if a spur could be built to an acceptable cost (it can't), we need to consider the effect on the existing railway network:

- The airport will need a 15 minute interval service. A service that requires passengers to wait for up to half an hour is not going to attract many. This means we need 4 tph (trains per hour).
- These services will be additional to those already on the Harrogate line, due to move to 4 tph as soon as they can manage it.
- This means 8tph between Leeds and Horsforth station. This will certainly require one additional platform at Leeds, plus a serious look at capacity between Leeds and Horsforth, particularly between Leeds and Armley junction.

I can't see it happening. The proposed parkway will give decent enough access to the airport and the new employment hub, as well as relieving Horsforth of traffic accessing the existing station to park and ride. And without needing expensive upgrades of the rest of the Harrogate line.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Even if a spur could be built to an acceptable cost (it can't), we need to consider the effect on the existing railway network:

- The airport will need a 15 minute interval service. A service that requires passengers to wait for up to half an hour is not going to attract many. This means we need 4 tph (trains per hour).
- These services will be additional to those already on the Harrogate line, due to move to 4 tph as soon as they can manage it.
- This means 8tph between Leeds and Horsforth station. This will certainly require one additional platform at Leeds, plus a serious look at capacity between Leeds and Horsforth, particularly between Leeds and Armley junction.

I can't see it happening. The proposed parkway will give decent enough access to the airport and the new employment hub, as well as relieving Horsforth of traffic accessing the existing station to park and ride. And without needing expensive upgrades of the rest of the Harrogate line.

I don't see why you would need a 15 minute service frequency, for the parkway proposal it is supposed to get all LNER services stopping that are about every two hours and that is for a parkway!

Really it needs to be made into a through route to Ilkley via Otley and eventually onto Skipton via a brand new line. This way Ikley gets more services, Otley gets a direct rail link to Leeds, Burley Park, Headingley & Horsforth gets more services, with the cherry on the cake being an alternative diversionary route for services to Skipton, Morcambe, Lancaster and Carlisle via the S&C.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don't see why you would need a 15 minute service frequency, for the parkway proposal it is supposed to get all LNER services stopping that are about every two hours and that is for a parkway!

Really it needs to be made into a through route to Ilkley via Otley and eventually onto Skipton via a brand new line. This way Ikley gets more services, Otley gets a direct rail link to Leeds, Burley Park, Headingley & Horsforth gets more services, with the cherry on the cake being an alternative diversionary route for services to Skipton, Morcambe, Lancaster and Carlisle via the S&C.

Are flights at Yeadon any more frequent than the LNER services would be?

Given the Coronavirus situation (and the fact that even that won't make the carbon issue go away) there may not be a viable airport (or at least any viable airlines) at LBA in 12 months time.

 

[quantinghome]

I don't see why you would need a 15 minute service frequency, for the parkway proposal it is supposed to get all LNER services stopping that are about every two hours and that is for a parkway!

No, as I understand it all Harrogate line trains would stop at the parkway, not just LNER, so you would get a 15 minute frequency service. You need a 15 minute service otherwise passenger will be waiting too long and will just get a taxi instead.

Really it needs to be made into a through route to Ilkley via Otley and eventually onto Skipton via a brand new line. This way Ikley gets more services, Otley gets a direct rail link to Leeds, Burley Park, Headingley & Horsforth gets more services, with the cherry on the cake being an alternative diversionary route for services to Skipton, Morcambe, Lancaster and Carlisle via the S&C.

So a brand new line to largely duplicate existing services. Sounds incredibly expensive for little gain.

I agree that reconnecting Otley should be looked at but the easiest way of doing that is to reinstate the line from Menston.

 

[Harvey B]

Really it needs to be made into a through route to Ilkley via Otley and eventually onto Skipton via a brand new line.

How would you extend the line from ilkley to skipton? I have a few thoughts on how but thats for another time

 

[adamedwards]

Is the Luton Airport people mover the solution here? Luton has a similar problem of station in valley and airport on the hill. The levels of use of Leeds Bradford may mean bus is more cost effective.

 

[class26]

Is the Luton Airport people mover the solution here? Luton has a similar problem of station in valley and airport on the hill. The levels of use of Leeds Bradford may mean bus is more cost effective.

Not remotely enough passenger throughput at LBA to justify the expense i would have thought

 

[Halifaxlad]

How would you extend the line from ilkley to skipton? I have a few thoughts on how but thats for another time

Ive got my crayons out!

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Pg1g-UOYKvc59ir0u0Rmv-lnH-oL7j05&usp=sharing

My personal preference is a brand new line adjacent to the A65 although I have previously considered how you could lay a second track adjacent to the Embsay Railway between the stations. Obviously this would necessitate the need to relocate Stone Acre Loop, although if their line was also extended to Addingham, which they would most likely support, provided that someone else paid for it. Bolton Abbey would become the centre of the line and the ideal location for it, besides which the existing loop is to be fully signaled anyway as part of their long term plan.

 

[Hsenoga1]

There is a significant amount of public support for direct rail access. Could this urge the council to deliver it??