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Arriva Rail North DOO

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Puffing Devil

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Presumably it's a lack of drivers volunteering to work Sundays and as drivers aren't on strike they can turn up as usual for their Saturday shifts and be paid for them - it's not their fault that they can't actually drive passenger services.

I'd like to know if it's rostering or equipment issues - that is wholly within the control of NR, or infrastructure issues which are outwith their control to some extent.

Anybody with any knowledge?
 
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northwichcat

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I'm surprised the press hasn't cottoned on to the possibility of taxpayers money being used to prolong the dispute. I would have expected this to be making headlines by now.

It took the RMT 2 years to realise that Northern get compensated for industrial action, even though it was reported by some rail journalists that was one of the conditions agreed between DfT and the franchise bidders BEFORE the franchise was even awarded to Arriva.
 

yorksrob

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It took the RMT 2 years to realise that Northern get compensated for industrial action, even though it was reported by some rail journalists that was one of the conditions agreed between DfT and the franchise bidders BEFORE the franchise was even awarded to Arriva.

If I were the RMT, I would be pushing that angle. It puts more heat on the Government.
 

Starmill

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I'm surprised the press hasn't cottoned on to the possibility of taxpayers money being used to prolong the dispute. I would have expected this to be making headlines by now.
How often do matters concerning railways in Northern England actually make it into the national press with the resources to investigate properly? Not frequently.
 

yorksrob

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How often do matters concerning railways in Northern England actually make it into the national press with the resources to investigate properly? Not frequently.

True. But I think it does have the makings of a scandal. "Taxpayers money used to prolong rail strike".
 

northwichcat

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If I were the RMT, I would be pushing that angle. It puts more heat on the Government.

But the RMT want to make it sound like it's a greedy German owned company who are to blame for the dispute, to fit in with their nationalisation agenda. If they put too much focus on the compensation for Northern, the media outlets will soon pick up on it being a DfT requirement and the franchise holder being irrelevant.
 

Starmill

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True. But I think it does have the makings of a scandal. "Taxpayers money used to prolong rail strike".
Taxpayers money is wasted on many things at Northern e.g the Ulleskelf ticket machine, or the one at Garforth which has had to have its cash function apparently permenemently isolated. Nobody seems to fuss about that. It's wrapped in the blanket of the private sector.
 

woodmally

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It took the RMT 2 years to realise that Northern get compensated for industrial action, even though it was reported by some rail journalists that was one of the conditions agreed between DfT and the franchise bidders BEFORE the franchise was even awarded to Arriva.
Well they still havent got the grasp that DOO is part of the franchise agreement therefore negotiation with Northern and the strike action is a pointless exercise so I dont hold much hope.
 

Carlisle

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If I were the RMT, I would be pushing that angle. It puts more heat on the Government.
That assumes lots of people still trust and respect the RMT, which might well have been true at the start of these disputes , but Is it still the case now, given Southern’s no longer regularly in the headlines for dire performance or a predicted appalling safety record .?
 
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YorkshireBear

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But the RMT want to make it sound like it's a greedy German owned company who are to blame for the dispute, to fit in with their nationalisation agenda. If they put too much focus on the compensation for Northern, the media outlets will soon pick up on it being a DfT requirement and the franchise holder being irrelevant.

This for me is why I won't support the RMT in this strike at all. Regardless of my opinion on DOO (don't agree with it) they could fight it a million times better but instead they harp on about nasty private companies instead of going after the people who are actually behind DOO. Which we know, so they must. They are either being political or lying, neither of which is good.
 

Dr Hoo

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^
"we all think"

Who is we? A hand full of anti rail anti union armchair frothers on a train spotting forum?

I have hesitated to get involved in this thread but offer just one anecdotal contribution from the Hope Valley (where we have had no trains and no substitute buses on 30 days now).
A recent typical evening journey from Sheffield saw a Class 150 and Class 142 coupled togther - quite common these days now that Northern has received extra stock from GWR. The guard ushers everbody onto the front class 150 and locks the rear Class 142 out of use. This is because of the short platform at Hathersage and absence of SDO. The guard then joins the empty unit and despatches the train without making any pre-departure announcement about the skip-stopping nature of the train.
Obviously there is no revenue protection or any patroling of the train to monitor anti-social behaviour or establish if an passenger might need assistance. But at least we travel safely through Totley Tunnel.
The cadre of passengers (who extend well beyond a hand full of anti rail union armchair frothers on a train spotting forum) are well able to chat amongst themselves and wonder where the guard is. Some of them are making journeys that have been re-arranged from Saturdays. Some of us in the Hope Valley are even making arrangements as who can give who else a lift in their car on Saturdays. Some, like me, who worked on the original Bedford-St Pancras electrification project and also found DOO trains operating with a 'full roster' NUR card-carrying ticket examiner between Glasgow and Gourock when I moved to Scotland no less than 32 years ago, are unable to explain how train staffing can still be such an issue in 2018.
 

Bletchleyite

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Now that is madness...why does the guard have to be in the second unit that has nobody in it?

Other TOCs don't even require them to be there when there are passengers there!
 

uww11x

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This is boring now, nothing is going change having strikes at weekends. They should do it during the week where it would make more of an impact
 

yorksrob

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Taxpayers money is wasted on many things at Northern e.g the Ulleskelf ticket machine, or the one at Garforth which has had to have its cash function apparently permenemently isolated. Nobody seems to fuss about that. It's wrapped in the blanket of the private sector.

Yes, but most of those things aren't actively preventing a train service from operating. The train still runs in spite of a dodgy ticket machine, however in this case the Government is paying Northern not to reach an agreement.
 

yorksrob

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That assumes plenty of folk still trust or have time for the RMT, which may well have been true at the beginning of these disputes, but I wouldn’t be nearly so sure now, given Southern no longer regularly hits the headlines for dire performance or a predicted appalling safety record .

Perhaps the RMT should have been more savvy and highlighted this from the start. Only the Government has the ability to permit Northern to compromise on its contract, so anything that drags it in should be encouraged.
 

Tomnick

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Given millions of passengers travelling safely on DOO services every day in London alone, DOO alone is not unsafe as long as there's dispatchers and visible members of staff where they are needed. Most passengers seem to prefer seeing someone in railway uniform walking through the train, than seeing a member of staff appearing to release and close the doors at stations. Many think Northern already run 'driver only' services as they don't always see a second visible member of staff on Northern services.
McNulty recommended that driver dispatch (alone) should be the default mode of operation, so I wouldn't count on there being dispatchers and other members of staff for long.

I'd prefer to see someone in railway uniform walking through the train *and* appearing to close (if not release) the doors at stations (since they're there anyway and have to check the platform for wheelchair users). I really don't understand why this is such an unrealistic aspiration.
 

Killingworth

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I have hesitated to get involved in this thread but offer just one anecdotal contribution from the Hope Valley (where we have had no trains and no substitute buses on 30 days now).
A recent typical evening journey from Sheffield saw a Class 150 and Class 142 coupled togther - quite common these days now that Northern has received extra stock from GWR. The guard ushers everbody onto the front class 150 and locks the rear Class 142 out of use. This is because of the short platform at Hathersage and absence of SDO. The guard then joins the empty unit and despatches the train without making any pre-departure announcement about the skip-stopping nature of the train.
Obviously there is no revenue protection or any patroling of the train to monitor anti-social behaviour or establish if an passenger might need assistance. But at least we travel safely through Totley Tunnel.
The cadre of passengers (who extend well beyond a hand full of anti rail union armchair frothers on a train spotting forum) are well able to chat amongst themselves and wonder where the guard is. Some of them are making journeys that have been re-arranged from Saturdays. Some of us in the Hope Valley are even making arrangements as who can give who else a lift in their car on Saturdays. Some, like me, who worked on the original Bedford-St Pancras electrification project and also found DOO trains operating with a 'full roster' NUR card-carrying ticket examiner between Glasgow and Gourock when I moved to Scotland no less than 32 years ago, are unable to explain how train staffing can still be such an issue in 2018.

This is the same pair of units that regularly run out of Piccadilly in the evening rush hour. They can be 2 Pacers or a 150 and Pacer, but not yet a pair of 150s. Often the 150 leads out of Piccadilly with conductor in rear unit - where they stay all the way to Sheffield, an un-gated station. Anything could happen in the front unit, and that's the one anyone joining after Piccadilly gets on, safe that nobody is likely to ask to see their ticket - which they probably won't have.

Can RMT explain how the nervous lady with pram in their video is able to escape to the other coaches, or find the conductor on such a train? Can Northern explain why they arrange to match 150/2s, that have an interconnecting gangway, to Pacers or 150/1s that don't, rather than with each other?

Like Dr Hoo my usual route to anywhere starts with the Hope Valley. It's not heaving with passengers, not least because it's an hourly service and many of them don't stop at every station. However, revenue protection is very poor, not least because of the lack of barriers at Sheffield or any other stop to Piccadilly. Far too often fares are not collected. Consequently the average passenger statistics based on ticket sales must show a substantially lower figure than the reality.

RMT may not intend this, but their inability to understand that passengers waiting to get in and out of doors that won't open frustrates us on nearly every journey. Get those doors able to be opened from the second the train comes to rest and we might have more time for other considerations. We can't see a valid objection to arranging this. Surely that's not too difficult to achieve, is it?

I know some of us grew up in the age when dropping the window (those old leather straps!) and opening the door before the train had come to a rest was normal, and dangerous. We've gone too far the other way now and it adds minutes to running times.
 

Killingworth

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Now that is madness...why does the guard have to be in the second unit that has nobody in it?

Other TOCs don't even require them to be there when there are passengers there!

I spent a day observing at Stockport earlier this year (sad, I know, but there was a reason) and saw numerous 4 car 15x formations running through, many with 150/1s included. Animal cunning being as it is those familiar with operations will avoid the unit with the conductor, thus ensuring it's got more space. It's not the guard avoiding the passengers.
 

Robertj21a

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If they want to have a genuine impact they're going to have to go all out, I'd say.

Can't help but agree. An all-out, prolonged, strike may be the only way this will ever get resolved. Even then I doubt that the end result will be what the RMT are demanding.
 

Carlisle

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Only the Government has the ability to permit Northern to compromise on its contract, so anything that drags it in should be encouraged.
The last I heard, the RMT refused to even discuss the idea of allowing drivers to close train doors, so unless they’ve had a recent change of heart ,I can’t see even the outlines of a compromise for govt to discuss, even if it wanted to .
 
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PR1Berske

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This is boring now, nothing is going change having strikes at weekends. They should do it during the week where it would make more of an impact
It has made an impact. Leisure travel has perhaps changed for good.
 

DaveB10780

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It is almost like the people who think cheating on insurance claims is a victimless crime. No it is not, everybody else just pays more. In this case a few selfish individuals have messed up many more folks weekends. They should all be forced to show their faces on a Saturday so we can tell them what we think.
 

Killingworth

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It has made an impact. Leisure travel has perhaps changed for good.

Yorkshire branch of Railfuture have their latest meeting on Saturday 31st October in Sheffield. Members with a passion for traveling by train and encouraging greater use may be using cars! It will be interesting to know if many attend. At least some lines may see a limited Northern service.
 

ComUtoR

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DOO alone is not unsafe as long as there's dispatchers and visible members of staff where they are needed.

So is it unsafe where there are no dispatchers and no members of staff, visible or otherwise ? Who decides where they are 'needed' and what requirements would you implement ?
 

woodmally

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Can't help but agree. An all-out, prolonged, strike may be the only way this will ever get resolved. Even then I doubt that the end result will be what the RMT are demanding.
No your not the only one. I've felt this for a while. The current set up no one really loses. Northern dont lose as they can maintain a skeleton service on Saturday and those on strike can gain an income on Sunday that they lost due to strike. A prolonged strike action would force the situation to a head one way or the other.
 

northernchris

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Northern's latest response to the strike action caught my attention, they are suggesting the RMT changed their minds on what they were prepared to discuss as the ACAS meetings.

Northern said:
RMT’s latest announcement will mean Northern’s customers have had to endure strikes every Saturday in September, October and now in to November – this is incredibly frustrating and disappointing, and is a further blow for our regional economy.

“The RMT changed its mind about what it would discuss between the first and second meetings at ACAS, making it impossible to progress. We have offered to explore all options, including those RMT has agreed with other train operators, but they refuse to discuss these with Northern for reasons known only to them.

“We urge the RMT to suspend strikes, and get back round the table to talk about the options they agreed to discuss in the first meeting at ACAS
 

yorksrob

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The last I heard, the RMT refused to even discuss the idea of allowing drivers to close train doors, so unless they’ve had a recent change of heart ,I can’t see even the outlines of a compromise for govt to discuss, even if it wanted to .

True. They would also need to agree to something similar to the Anglian agreement.
 

Robertj21a

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.......and the RMT response will be.........

We will not discuss matters with Germans, or those representing any foreign country, all the time that our brave comrades have to face the unbelievable fear of their role possibly having to change in 10-20 years time....

:rolleyes:
 
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