GoAhead South Coast (Bluestar) vs. First Southampton.....

[DaveHarries]

Morning all,

Just seen on the website of Southampton operator Buestar that they are to revise Service 17 (Southampton City Centre - Shirley - General Hospital - Lord's Hill) effective 11-Nov-2018 in a move which will involve extending the route at both ends. Route will now be Weston to Adnac Park with buses ending as late as 1am 7 days per week. This could be interesting but I think it may not last long: the route around the Weston area appears to be the same as that of First's Service 11 which runs every 7 to 8 minutes through Weston. Bluestar are planning to run 6 per hour during the day on Mondays to Saturdays with 4 per hour Sundays and Bank Holidays. It could be that First come up with a reply of their own but, if they do, I wonder what. Could be that First hold out and hope that Bluestar end up cutting the frequency through lack of passengers.

Bluestar say they will be using dual-door doublle-deckers for the new route too: any idea if these will be new or second-hand? I know they have just changed the fleet on some of the 'U' routes so could be that the deckers displaced from those routes get used on the 17.

Changes also coming to Bluestar routes 4, 5, 8, 9, 11, 12, 16 and 18.
http://www.bluestarbus.co.uk/article.shtml?articleid=8814

HTIOI,
Dave

 

[ChrisPJ]

I saw somewhere a comparison between First Southampton route maps a few years apart, the thinning of the network is stark and very much like what happened to Northampton.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Morning all,

Just seen on the website of Southampton operator Buestar that they are to revise Service 17 (Southampton City Centre - Shirley - General Hospital - Lord's Hill) effective 11-Nov-2018 in a move which will involve extending the route at both ends. Route will now be Weston to Adnac Park with buses ending as late as 1am 7 days per week. This could be interesting but I think it may not last long: the route around the Weston area appears to be the same as that of First's Service 11 which runs every 7 to 8 minutes through Weston. Bluestar are planning to run 6 per hour during the day on Mondays to Saturdays with 4 per hour Sundays and Bank Holidays. It could be that First come up with a reply of their own but, if they do, I wonder what. Could be that First hold out and hope that Bluestar end up cutting the frequency through lack of passengers.

Bluestar say they will be using dual-door doublle-deckers for the new route too: any idea if these will be new or second-hand? I know they have just changed the fleet on some of the 'U' routes so could be that the deckers displaced from those routes get used on the 17.

Changes also coming to Bluestar routes 4, 5, 8, 9, 11, 12, 16 and 18.
http://www.bluestarbus.co.uk/article.shtml?articleid=8814

HTIOI,
Dave

The very partisan Soton Bus Blog has been full of this since the registrations came out.

It's very interesting that Bluestar and Lothian, at different ends of the country, are looking to capitalise on First's weaknesses in the light of events earlier this year. However, it had seemed that there was a much more determined approach from First regarding competition. First have managed to successfully oust Rotala from Bristol and Bath, and have also winkled out other sizeable competitors such as Western Greyhound, Crosville and Webberbus. Now, you'd be right to say that those don't have the financial strength and resources of Lothian or GSC. However, they have also been canny in Essex - ceding the Clacton locals but ousting Go Ahead from the areas that they really want. Same with the job they've done on Go Ahead around Norfolk.

Bit early for the Lothian one to be properly evaluated but wondering with that and GSC, they're prepared to simply play the long game especially if, given the reports of improved margins/profitability within UK Bus, they have more latitude and they regard it as a worthwhile investment to make a stand?

 

[Lynford1976]

Dual-door 'deckers, recently replaced by new vehicles on the Unilink network, will be used on the 17.

The 18 is getting brand new Enviro400City vehicles.

 

[cactustwirly]

The very partisan Soton Bus Blog has been full of this since the registrations came out.

It's very interesting that Bluestar and Lothian, at different ends of the country, are looking to capitalise on First's weaknesses in the light of events earlier this year. However, it had seemed that there was a much more determined approach from First regarding competition. First have managed to successfully oust Rotala from Bristol and Bath, and have also winkled out other sizeable competitors such as Western Greyhound, Crosville and Webberbus. Now, you'd be right to say that those don't have the financial strength and resources of Lothian or GSC. However, they have also been canny in Essex - ceding the Clacton locals but ousting Go Ahead from the areas that they really want. Same with the job they've done on Go Ahead around Norfolk.

Bit early for the Lothian one to be properly evaluated but wondering with that and GSC, they're prepared to simply play the long game especially if, given the reports of improved margins/profitability within UK Bus, they have more latitude and they regard it as a worthwhile investment to make a stand?

First are competing well with Arriva in Leicester as well.

 

[cactustwirly]

I saw somewhere a comparison between First Southampton route maps a few years apart, the thinning of the network is stark and very much like what happened to Northampton.

Not really, they still have a good coverage of the city.
It's not that much worse than Leicester, which is one of Firsts stronger areas

 

[goldisgood]

I found this showing the comparison between the 11 and revised 17 https://www.scribd.com/document/390606875/Comparison-F11-BS17
Bluestar do seem to have the upper hand, with later evening and early morning buses (although slightly less buses at some times, but not much)

 

[Robertj21a]

First are competing well with Arriva in Leicester as well.

Are they ? - there's not very much that they compete on really. Which routes are you thinking of ?

 

[DaveHarries]

Dual-door 'deckers, recently replaced by new vehicles on the Unilink network, will be used on the 17.

The 18 is getting brand new Enviro400City vehicles.

Ah ok new vehicles for the 18, which currently uses Enviro200 MMC. Perhaps the Enviro200 MMCs will be used to displace older single-deckers or transferred onto other routes although I wonder which ones. Service 7?

Dave

 

[cactustwirly]

Are they ? - there's not very much that they compete on really. Which routes are you thinking of ?

Arriva routes 85, 86 & 46, compete with First's 88 & 88A to Eyres Monsell/Aylestone

Then you have Arriva 51, which sort of competes with First's 18 to Braunstone.

First's 21 competes with Arriva's 6 to Thurmaston.

 

[Lynford1976]

Ah ok new vehicles for the 18, which currently uses Enviro200 MMC. Perhaps the Enviro200 MMCs will be used to displace older single-deckers or transferred onto other routes although I wonder which ones. Service 7?

Dave

Probably. There's a ULEZ coming for Southampton which is forcing a change in the fleet. A lot of Citaros have already departed for pastures new.

 

[goldisgood]

Ah ok new vehicles for the 18, which currently uses Enviro200 MMC. Perhaps the Enviro200 MMCs will be used to displace older single-deckers or transferred onto other routes although I wonder which ones. Service 7?

Dave

I'd guess the ex-Unilinks will be retrofitted, with some Enviro 400s on top of that? The current 18 fleet will likely go onto at least the 7, 8, 11 and 12, maybe even the 5. I have a feeling that they may have already been confirmed as running on the 7?
I'd guess something like this
1, Unilinks: Enviro 400 MMC
18: Enviro 400 City
2, 3?, 6, 17: Enviro 400 (retrofitted to Euro 6?)
4, 5?, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12: Enviro 200 MMC
16: Eclipses (retrofitted to Euro 6?)

 

[Robertj21a]

Arriva routes 85, 86 & 46, compete with First's 88 & 88A to Eyres Monsell/Aylestone

Then you have Arriva 51, which sort of competes with First's 18 to Braunstone.

First's 21 competes with Arriva's 6 to Thurmaston.

Well, there isn't any route 46 and the 85 goes to Countesthorpe. Although Arriva's 86 goes to Eyres Monsell it follows a different route to First's 88. So there's no competition there !

Arriva 51 and First 18 go to different destinations, via totally different routes.

First 21 doesn't compete with Arriva's 6 at all, once again they go to different destinations, via totally different routes !

I really can't see how you come up with your conclusions.

 

[goldisgood]

Well, there isn't any route 46 and the 85 goes to Countesthorpe. Although Arriva's 86 goes to Eyres Monsell it follows a different route to First's 88. So there's no competition there !

Arriva 51 and First 18 go to different destinations, via totally different routes.

First 21 doesn't compete with Arriva's 6 at all, once again they go to different destinations, via totally different routes !

I really can't see how you come up with your conclusions.

The routes mentioned don't really compete at all, but there are a few routes where they do compete, most notably the 14.
Arriva's 86 has a pretty similar route to First's 88, so I'd guess they compete a bit?
First's 38/38A competes with Arriva's 53, and to a certain extent the 55/56 and 58/58A.

 

[Robertj21a]

The routes mentioned don't really compete at all, but there are a few routes where they do compete, most notably the 14.
Arriva's 86 has a pretty similar route to First's 88, so I'd guess they compete a bit?
First's 38/38A competes with Arriva's 53, and to a certain extent the 55/56 and 58/58A.

Agreed.

Of course the main 'head to head' competition in which First is involved in Leicester is route 54 where the competitor, for very many years, is not Arriva but Centrebus.