Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[Spartacus]

A new tunnel was built at Farnworth as part of route upgrade, why not here? The tunnel boring machine is cheap and available, low mileage, one owner.

Farnworth wasn't a new tunnel, it was just the old one rebored with a greater diameter, and was in a way a restoration as the bore originally carried double track before it had to be strengthened, and as tunnels go the length is pretty paltry. It was also a case of do it or don't electrify the whole route, not spend heaven knows how much to save 30 seconds. Again, the relocation of the platform and line was pretty minor.

 

[hwl]

Well there's the Cambrian line which has been running for 8 years, but it's a limited mainly single track network compared to a busy inter-urban railway like TP.
The Thameslink core section was implemented earlier this year for the ATO solution, but it is a short and specialised installation with only one train type (700).
The GW line out to Heathrow is in progress for Crossrail, but is not yet successfully installed.
The south end of the ECML, starting with the King's Cross remodelling, is in development and should roll out in the next 5 years, and will need several train fleets and loco types fitted.
TP should come next.

Moorgate - Finsbury Park probably first bit of "ECML" as it will only be 717s (All ETCS ready as delivered) so they can up the train frequency. East London Line North of New Cross Gate also being looked at very seriously by TfL and NR.

The Thameslink core includes sections of 2 branches at either end with branches taking 16/8tph and 24tph through the middle (30tph in recovery mode) which should be a very test of understanding and capability for the rest of the UK.

 

[hwl]

Except Market Harborough is on a significantly less severe curve, more of a kink than the S bend that goes on at Morley and Tunnel End, and there's nowhere else to put the platform at Morley without eating into embankment and housing on top of that.

And the railway is the freeholder at Market Harborough and is also using former railway alignment

 

[YorkshireBear]

A new tunnel was built at Farnworth as part of route upgrade, why not here? The tunnel boring machine is cheap and available, low mileage, one owner.

It was hardly a roaring success either.

 

[YorkshireBear]

No different to what is happening at Market Harborough. The alignment is being eased for speed and goes through the present platform. The platforms are being built on the new alignment.

Why not on the TRU? Probably because one end isn't London!

No point trying to create another North South arguement here. The comparison isn't relevant. Have you been to Morley and looked at the earthworks on the North of the line????

 

[deltic08]

Except Market Harborough is on a significantly less severe curve, more of a kink than the S bend that goes on at Morley and Tunnel End.

All the more reason to do it.

 

[deltic08]

No point trying to create another North South arguement here. The comparison isn't relevant. Have you been to Morley and looked at the earthworks on the North of the line????

Many times. Have you been on the M3 where a 6 lane highway goes through Twycross Down? Or is it Twyford Down? Anyway improvements at Morley is nothing to modern machinery.

 

[deltic08]

Farnworth wasn't a new tunnel, it was just the old one rebored with a greater diameter, and was in a way a restoration as the bore originally carried double track before it had to be strengthened, and as tunnels go the length is pretty paltry. It was also a case of do it or don't electrify the whole route, not spend heaven knows how much to save 30 seconds. Again, the relocation of the platform and line was pretty minor.

TRU is a £3billion upgrade of a major route. Not to do it is a cop out.

 

[deltic08]

It was hardly a roaring success either.

I can't agree with you. A new lined and electrified tunnel has been created. Why is it not a success.

 

[deltic08]

I'm really not sure how a down loop at Batley could work without quite a bit of disruption and rebuilding work, though Up would be easy.

By building a greater radius curve. The current eastbound would become the loop line and the current westbound would become the eastbound fast. Two new westbound lines would be built with a new westbound platform. Yes, considerable disruption and closure of the station for a few weeks but as I have said before this is a £3billion major route upgrade.

In some places there will have to be a trade off between an increase in capacity and resilience and an increase in speed but quad tracking from Batley to Hudds will contain 5 of the seven intermediate stations..

 

[Senex]

Except Market Harborough is on a significantly less severe curve, more of a kink than the S bend that goes on at Morley and Tunnel End, and there's nowhere else to put the platform at Morley without eating into embankment and housing on top of that.

The reverse curve in the platform at Market Harborough is from 29 chains radius to 35 chains. Trying to scale off a radius for the curves at Morley from Google Earth, I get a rough figure of about 650 metres, or roughly 32 chains. That seems to fit in with a line-speed of 75 mph and to agree with the fact that the report on potential line-speeds that has been referred to a good many times in this thread offers nothing better than 75 in the whole Morley area, with a lower speed on the curve into the tunnel. Ploughman has explained why this should be : the presence of the platforms has consequences for the design of the transitions and the amount of cant that can be applied. So it looks as though the only way of getting extra speed through Morley would be to move the station (or close it!).

 

[HowardGWR]

Many times. Have you been on the M3 where a 6 lane highway goes through Twycross Down? Or is it Twyford Down? Anyway improvements at Morley is nothing to modern machinery.

It's Twyford Down. ('Was'; the Down was effectively destroyed. It's the most depressing experience to see it and it could have been a tunnel).

 

[Elecman]

I can't agree with you. A new lined and electrified tunnel has been created. Why is it not a success.

I think he refers to the issue of running sand that they hit, causing a delay and temporary lane closures on the main road above. But as you say all complete. Filly didn’t have a rotary cutting head so probably not a lot of use in a full face solid Pennine granite scenario

 

[snowball]

Incidentally, whilst reports at the start of the work said the machine would be re-usable, later reports said otherwise. I think re-usable parts were recovered and the rest scrapped.

 

[edwin_m]

Incidentally, whilst reports at the start of the work said the machine would be re-usable, later reports said otherwise. I think re-usable parts were recovered and the rest scrapped.

It might have been re-useable had further tunnel widenings in suitably soft (but not so soft as to be sandy) ground been needed. As those projects probably come up about once every hundred years it would make sense to scrap it.

 

[Killingworth]

It was hardly a roaring success either.

The Farnworth Tunnel project may be an excellent example to consider when thinking of reboring any other tunnels in and around the Pennines - and probably about boring any new ones as well. It is quite short at 270m, albeit nearer the surface and below a more heavily occupied landscape than much longer Woodhead, Standedge or Totley. Until work gets under way it's difficult to accurately predict what may be found.

There are several good accounts about Farnworth online and these two make particularly interesting reading;

From the Rail Engineer; https://www.railengineer.uk/2016/03/03/farnworth-tunnel-once-in-a-lifetime/

And from Murphy's; http://www.murphygroup.com/projects/farnworth-tunnel/

 

[snowball]

Not to mention the coverage in the Blackpool-Manchester electrification thread.

I doubt Fillie would have been very impressive in millstone grit.

 

[Boysteve]

To help discuss Morely here are some pictures from Street View;

I am not sure how much of the curve is in the tunnel, so any realignment may have to enlarge the tunnel bore.
The Leeds bound platform/wall and road would also need to be re-positioned.
I am not sure what is behind the trees behind the Leeds bound platform!

 

[Ploughman]

I seem to recall that the curve goes into the tunnel about 75m. (10 years have passed since I worked in there.)
The transition down starts in the platform.

 

[deltic08]

To help discuss Morely here are some pictures from Street View;View attachment 53596 View attachment 53597

I am not sure how much of the curve is in the tunnel, so any realignment may have to enlarge the tunnel bore.
The Leeds bound platform/wall and road would also need to be re-positioned.
I am not sure what is behind the trees behind the Leeds bound platform!

Who put those houses there? Last time I was in Morley they weren't there. They may have scuppered my plan to tunnel through this high ground to ease the curve here.

 

[edwin_m]

According to the Five Mile Diagram the curve is 440m radius but only goes about 10m into the tunnel. There might be space to move the platform back into the vegetated area and ease this particular curve, but looking at the OS map I agree with the previous poster who noted this would mean tightening up the long curve of the opposite hand which starts a little way towards Leeds. This is down to 690m radius in part, so any realignment would involve a lot of work for little increase in speed.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Who put those houses there? Last time I was in Morley they weren't there. They may have scuppered my plan to tunnel through this high ground to ease the curve here.

So your dismissal of my comment about Morley was based on you visiting the site over 4 years ago? (that is at least how long those houses have been there when i moved to the area).

 

[Senex]

According to the Five Mile Diagram the curve is 440m radius but only goes about 10m into the tunnel. There might be space to move the platform back into the vegetated area and ease this particular curve, but looking at the OS map I agree with the previous poster who noted this would mean tightening up the long curve of the opposite hand which starts a little way towards Leeds. This is down to 690m radius in part, so any realignment would involve a lot of work for little increase in speed.

Thanks for the detail. That certainly accounts for no higher aspiration than 60 in the station itself and 75 on the approach curves in the document I was referring to (which is able to be astonishingly ambitious in other places). You also demonstrate the risks of my trying to measure curves off Google Earth!!

 

[Ploughman]

According to the Five Mile Diagram the curve is 440m radius but only goes about 10m into the tunnel. There might be space to move the platform back into the vegetated area and ease this particular curve, but looking at the OS map I agree with the previous poster who noted this would mean tightening up the long curve of the opposite hand which starts a little way towards Leeds. This is down to 690m radius in part, so any realignment would involve a lot of work for little increase in speed.

Are the 5 mile diagrams available to us mortals anywhere outside the NWR IT systems?
I used to use them at work a lot but no access now.

 

[edwin_m]

Are the 5 mile diagrams available to us mortals anywhere outside the NWR IT systems?
I used to use them at work a lot but no access now.

No. Last I heard they are managed by whoever is the successor of Aspen Burrow Whoever and anyone wanting to use them has to pay a license. NR can't even give them to their contractors.

 

[deltic08]

So your dismissal of my comment about Morley was based on you visiting the site over 4 years ago? (that is at least how long those houses have been there when i moved to the area).

Hardly a hanging offence. Haven't been much since my daughter moved from Mirfield 6 years ago.

One way or another a 60mph curve is too low on an upgraded route. I thought the idea was not to go fast but not go slow either.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

At Morley, it's worth noting that the first 10m of the tunnel aren't actually the tunnel. It is in fact the bridge carrying the access road to the industrial units behind the station. This gives a false impression of clearances for OHLE in the tunnel, as the road bridge "extension" has a much higher arch.

 

[Chester1]

Hardly a hanging offence. Haven't been much since my daughter moved from Mirfield 6 years ago.

One way or another a 60mph curve is too low on an upgraded route. I thought the idea was not to go fast but not go slow either.

60mph is acceptable for parts of the line where it would be very expensive to increase line speed further. The target is Victoria to Leeds in 40 minutes with 2 stops and they are choosing the cheapest upgrades to achieve it. There are parts of the line that are significantly slower than 60mph therefore Morley does not need to be rebuilt as part of this project. I wonder what the tipping point would be for a brand new alignment or new line to be better than upgrading the existing line.

 

[bluenoxid]

Tipping point would probably be several minutes or a substantial increase in capacity.

 

[Halifaxlad]

There's be considerable difficulty crossing the Calder valley for a start, as well as housing on the line, have a look at google maps. Such a route MIGHT be used by Grand Central and ECS trains, nothing else, it'd miss out Halifax, Brighouse and soon hopefully Elland. This thread's getting more like a speculative ideas one by the day

(Don't take it personally, one of my favorite quotes)

A few houses, lets not start ruling things out just because a few houses are in the way. Especially when HS2 will see the demolition of thousands! Surely for this route to work either Bradford will need to be connected or the Bradford Avoiding Line would need to be reopened. Although I suppose that will never happen as they're is just no-need according to some people.

With it reopened you would get a route that would bypass and free up capacity between Mirfield, Dewsbury, Batley, Morley, Cottingley/White Rose. Admittedly it would have to go through Low Moor, New Pudsey & Bramley but these are a lot smaller in comparison to places like Dewsbury. Even so, loops like at Dewsbury could be installed to mitigate impact.