Keolis/Amey to take over Wales and Borders

[krus_aragon]

Lol this is the new pacer livery :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...17_1914999358808039_2830607009701691392_n.png

"New" , but also "temporary": they're off to the scrappers in a little over a year, so why bother with anything more than some promotional stickers?

 

[uxm]

"New" , but also "temporary": they're off to the scrappers in a little over a year, so why bother with anything more than some promotional stickers?

No I think they shouldn't have spent money on any stickers just remove the arriva brand.

 

[krus_aragon]

No I think they shouldn't have spent money on any stickers just remove the arriva brand.

Fair enough. I can understand them wanting something new to show off on one or two Valleys-based units for the weary commuters, and for the "new franchise ceremonies" that are probably due in Cardiff in just over a few weeks' time. If 150285 were to be overhauled in time that'd be nicer, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Don't expect too much, 'cause they rather dropped the ball with this tweet:


By the end of 2019, yes. But I expect most of their audience will have interpreted that as giving the pacers a shelf life of three months.

I'm taking it that they will be hiring in MK1 and Steam loco's - just like the Hogwarts Express.

Well, if they are going to hire mark 1s they might be able to retire some Pacers by the end of 2018 (I wonder if 73/9s can still multi. with 4-TCs and 4-CIGs). I doubt they are going to though; perhaps the picture was supposed to have a hidden meaning: "we would have to be magic to get rid of the Pacers before 2019".

 

[PR1Berske]

Lol this is the new pacer livery :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...17_1914999358808039_2830607009701691392_n.png

That looks.... temporary. Know what I mean? "We know it's not here for long so will this do?"

 

[anthony263]

There's a photo doing the rounds on Facebook of a 175 being painted into the new livery

 

[bigbadhenry]

 

[krus_aragon]

Ah, there's a snippet that wasn't previously confirmed: "MkIV and Cl67 introduced" in 2019. Now we know for sure what traction they'll be using.

 

[Gareth Marston]

lets hope no mention of CAF Civitys for Birmingham/Cambrian is an oversight.

 

[krus_aragon]

A fuller write-up for the visually impaired:
Fleet Cascade and New Fleet Introduction Timelines (presumably photographed on a noticeboard)
Wales & Borders

• Dec 2019: 170s and 230s introduced and MkIV and Cl67 introduced
• Dec 2019: 150s reassigned (to Cardiff Metro)
• Dec 2021 onwards: New CAD DMU trains for North Wales, Manchester to Cardiff and West Wales
• Oct 2022: Cl 153s, 158s, 175s replaced

Cardiff Metro:

• Dec 2019: 150s reassigned (from Wales & Borders)
• Dec 2019: Pacers replaced
• Aug 2021: Taf's Well Ready
• Sept 2021: Stage 0 electrification
• Feb-Jul 2022: Stadler MVs Merthyr + Aberdare to Cardiff Central
• May 2022: 769s replaced
• Oct/Nov 2022 Start 150s replaced
  
• Dec 2022: Stadler DMUs on Suburban
• May 2023: Stadler MVs on City Line
• Dec 2023: New Stadler Tri-mode on Rhymney
• Dec 2023: All 150s replaced

 

[krus_aragon]

lets hope no mention of CAF Civitys for Birmingham/Cambrian is an oversight. Also no dates given for 153/158/175 withdrawl

It was probably written by someone living in the far South, who regards Aberystwyth and Newtown as being in the North as it's north of them.

Oct 2022 for the latter, hiding just below the Wales & Borders arrow.

 

[Gareth Marston]

No introduction date for the 769's either!

 

[Cardiff123]

There's a date for withdrawal of 769s, but no date confirming when 769s will be introduced!
It's increasingly looking like there are only 2 options left for releasing 150s to meet the PRM deadline:
Introduction of Northern Pacers,
Or hiring a fleet of replacement buses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's a date for withdrawal of 769s, but no date confirming when 769s will be introduced!
It's increasingly looking like there are only 2 options left for releasing 150s to meet the PRM deadline:
Introduction of Northern Pacers,
Or hiring a fleet of replacement buses.

I thought there had already been an admission that the stopgap was indeed going to be more Pacers.

 

[krus_aragon]

No introduction date for the 769's either!

If I were feeling charitable, I might suggest that it's left of frame in 2018 (at the original planned date).
If I were feeling more cynical, I'd say it's because they've got no idea when they'll be arriving!

 

[Cardiff123]

I thought there had already been an admission that the stopgap was indeed going to be more Pacers.

We haven't heard anything officially confirmed about it. I doubt it's anything TfW will want to admit to when the PR is about getting rid of Pacers, not introducing more of them, even if just for a few months.

 

[anthony263]

There's a date for withdrawal of 769s, but no date confirming when 769s will be introduced!
It's increasingly looking like there are only 2 options left for releasing 150s to meet the PRM deadline:
Introduction of Northern Pacers,
Or hiring a fleet of replacement buses.

Or loco hauled stock

 

[krus_aragon]

Or loco hauled stock

That one we could infer will happen when the MkIV are introduced (though there may be a question of when/whether the Manchester-North Wales rake is switched over to MkIV until the stock is reallocated to Holyhead-Cardiff in the 2022 timetable recast).

Edit: I thought you were noting there was no withdrawal date for the MkIII stock.

 

[Cardiff123]

Or loco hauled stock

As @craigybagel has said, LHCS, especially on the Valleys where the PRM cover is needed, would be a non-starter in the timeframe available due to crew needing training etc
We just need the Northern Pacers, even 142s sent down to the Valleys urgently

 

[mde]

No introduction date for the 769's either!

"early 2019" is the revised timescale ATW are quoting on social media (along with links to the tfw website).

 

[Bikeman78]

As @craigybagel has said, LHCS, especially on the Valleys where the PRM cover is needed, would be a non-starter in the timeframe available due to crew needing training etc
We just need the Northern Pacers, even 142s sent down to the Valleys urgently

How long would it take to train Rhymney on hauled stock, assuming there is any available? Even the one round trip was useful because it freed up two units in the peaks.

 

[Rhydgaled]

No introduction date for the 769's either!

Or the 5x additional classs 153s from GWR...

It's increasingly looking like there are only 2 options left for releasing 150s to meet the PRM deadline:
Introduction of Northern Pacers,
Or hiring a fleet of replacement buses.

Or, 'world-class' short-forms; which appears to be the chosen strategy at the moment...

As @craigybagel has said, LHCS, especially on the Valleys where the PRM cover is needed, would be a non-starter in the timeframe available due to crew needing training etc

Although the bulk of the PRM cover is needed on the valleys (don't forget the 158s need PRM work too), that doesn't mean any additional stock HAS to be used on the valleys. If LHCS could be quickly introduced to cover a class 175/1 diagram or two then those 175s could go onto 175/0 diagrams (providing a capacity increase) releasing 175/0s for the HOWL or Conwy valley to release a 150 or two for the valleys. Of course, ideally you would want any LHCS cover to replace a 4-car class 150 diagram, which of course would only exist in the valleys (or possibly at a different TOC, with the released 150s subleased to Wales).

 

[Gareth Marston]

It seems likely that WG/TfW have dug themselves in a hole with the announcements so far promising the end of Pacers. On past form they wont be able to resist proclaiming the "world classness" of their plans when the franchise changes so bringing in Pacers will be a "loss of face" for them.

 

[Cardiff123]

Deleted

 

[krus_aragon]

If LHCS could be quickly introduced to cover a class 175/1 diagram or two then those 175s could go onto 175/0 diagrams (providing a capacity increase) releasing 175/0s for the HOWL or Conwy valley to release a 150 or two for the valleys.

175s aren't currently cleared for the Conwy Valley, and I suspect they aren't for the HOWL either. Your general point still stands, as there are Sprinter diagrams elsewhere which could be operated by 175s.

 

[Great_Western]

175s aren't currently cleared for the Conwy Valley, and I suspect they aren't for the HOWL either. Your general point still stands, as there are Sprinter diagrams elsewhere which could be operated by 175s.

175's are definitely cleared for the HOWL, they quite often appear on the Royal Welsh specials and have done full runs in service in the past. If absolutely necessary, I can't imagine it being that difficult for 175's to be cleared along the Conwy Valley. That said, I can see semi permanent bustitution being a more likely option if 150's needed to be freed up quickly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

175's are definitely cleared for the HOWL, they quite often appear on the Royal Welsh specials and have done full runs in service in the past. If absolutely necessary, I can't imagine it being that difficult for 175's to be cleared along the Conwy Valley. That said, I can see semi permanent bustitution being a more likely option if 150's needed to be freed up quickly.

It's probably the most sensible line to do that to, to be honest. It would be a shame, but unlike most other lines it is possible to near match the train service times. They could even offer a slight improvement to timings in return.

 

[craigybagel]

How long would it take to train Rhymney on hauled stock, assuming there is any available? Even the one round trip was useful because it freed up two units in the peaks.

For qualified guards the conversion course at ATW is currently 2 days - it was recently cut down from 3. Drivers will be a lot longer

Or the 5x additional classs 153s from GWR...

Or, 'world-class' short-forms; which appears to be the chosen strategy at the moment...

Although the bulk of the PRM cover is needed on the valleys (don't forget the 158s need PRM work too), that doesn't mean any additional stock HAS to be used on the valleys. If LHCS could be quickly introduced to cover a class 175/1 diagram or two then those 175s could go onto 175/0 diagrams (providing a capacity increase) releasing 175/0s for the HOWL or Conwy valley to release a 150 or two for the valleys. Of course, ideally you would want any LHCS cover to replace a 4-car class 150 diagram, which of course would only exist in the valleys (or possibly at a different TOC, with the released 150s subleased to Wales).

The problem is, it's very difficult to find any diagrams you can drop LHCS on to that won't require extra staff training up. It would need to start and finish every day either at Holyhead or Crewe (or somewhere relatively close to those locations). It would be confined pretty much to the routes that currently see them (so Holyhead - Chester - Cardiff/Manchester. You can't go west of Cardiff or even Crewe - Manchester). You might be able to tweak a Llandudno - Manchester diagram (as was done with the existing North Wales set) but even then there are not that many drivers available for that route (just the ones from Holyhead, and it's a small depot) so there might not be much room to give them any more LHCS work. It's really not that easy at all.

 

[pdeaves]

it's very difficult to find any diagrams you can drop LHCS on to that won't require extra staff training up

I am conscious that this is very much a hypothetical discussion, but sort term it would be possible to hire appropriate crew from other operators. Of course, that would depend on availability from any chosen supplier and no doubt a gazillion other considerations.

 

[krus_aragon]

175's are definitely cleared for the HOWL, they quite often appear on the Royal Welsh specials and have done full runs in service in the past

I stand corrected. I've only had 150s on the Royal Welsh specials myself.

On further thinking, do the 158s have some platform clearance issues on that route? That may be what I got confused with.