Travelling short with a Off Peak Return

[323235]

Is travelling Short with an Off Peak Return or any other walk on tickets prohibited?

 

[tony_mac]

Oh, no, not this again!
If break of journey is permitted for your ticket (you have to ask at the station or ring up NRES to find out) then yes, it is allowed.
If break of journey is not permitted, then it depends on how you interpret the conditions of carriage.

Some people believe that it is definitely not allowed, some people believe that it is allowed. Some people believe that it is unclear and hence the consumer should be able to rely on the most advantageous interpretation.
Some people also believe that it is unclear but it's best to assume that it isn't allowed rather than possibly end up in trouble for it.

For Anytime tickets, break of journey is always allowed.

 

[yorkie]

They can't stop you changing trains unnecessarily (as this is not a "break of journey") and they cannot stop you going through barriers to use station facilities.

Break of journey consists of leaving the station premises. So going through the barriers at Leeds to go to Wetherspoons (which is within the station!) does not count as a break of journey. However in theory if someone followed you and watched you and after your meal/drink saw you go into the city then, in theory, they could do something....although I'm not sure what they could actually do in the street. They'd have to somehow stop you (but they couldn't touch you) and then get you to admit that you were in posession of a ticket that did not allow BOJ, they'd then have to get your details and a court would then have to decree that where BOJ is disallowed that means you can't end short. In the unlikely event of this occuring, I'd donate 50 quid toward your legal bill in fighting such a case.

In changing from, say, Bradford Forster Square to Interchange, in theory if you entered a shop on the way between the stations, then you could be accused of breaking your journey. I do not think any railway official would have any business touching you in a shop between the stations or in the street, and all they may be able to do (theoretically) is stop you when you got to the other station from boarding another train. But if you wanted to cut short anyway there really is nothing they can do.

 

[John @ home]

Is travelling Short with an Off Peak Return or any other walk on tickets prohibited?

Not usually. Is there a particular journey that you have in mind? We may then be able to set your mind at rest by quoting appropriate rules.

John

 

[323235]

Not usually. Is there a particular journey that you have in mind? We may then be able to set your mind at rest by quoting appropriate rules.

John

Yes but a slightly different question now

if you were to get a Manchester - Stoke Saver Return with a Railcard £8.50 for use between Macclesfield - Stoke (outward 13th November/Return 15th November).

would you be prevented from catching a train at Macclesfield which departed after 10am, if it had left Manchester before 10am?

 

[yorkie]

Yes but a slightly different question now

if you were to get a Manchester - Stoke Saver Return with a Railcard £8.90 for use between Macclesfield - Stoke (outward 13th November/Return 15th November).

would you be prevented from catching a train at Macclesfield which departed after 10am, if it had left Manchester before 10am?

The ticket is valid on trains to depart (Manchester) from 0930 onward. 10am doesn't come into it. It is valid on the 0935 from Manchester, this is 0955 from Macclesfield. Whether it is valid to start short is open to debate, but if the person at the barrier (if there is one) thinks it isn't, then it's a lot easier for them to prevent you passing through than it is for them to prevent you from finishing short.

Edit: Just realised you are talking about the minimum fare rule. I think that applies to when the ticket is used, so if you are accepted as starting short then it would be valid on the 1018, however if it is not accepted that you can start short then I believe they'd charge you a new ticket. Whether or not this would be correct is a matter for debate.

Finishing short is a LOT easier to justify than starting short.

 

[John @ home]

Manchester - Stoke Saver Return with a Railcard £8.90 for use between Macclesfield - Stoke (outward 13th November/Return 15th November).

The price is shown in both the Fares Manual and on the internet booking engines as £8.50, not £8.90. The £8.50 Off-Peak Return fare is set by CrossCountry. It is valid for break of journey in both directions, so you would be allowed to start, or end, or break at Macclesfield within the validity of the ticket. The Mon-Fri restriction for both outward and return legs is By any train except those scheduled to depart before 0930. See below for Railcard restrictions.

would you be prevented from catching a train at Macclesfield which departed after 10am, if it had left Manchester before 10am?

The 16-25 Railcard terms and conditions state A £12 minimum fare applies for journeys made at or before 10am Monday to Friday. A journey is from the origin to the destination printed on the ticket. So there is a risk that if you join a train at Macclesfield after 10am which had left Manchester before 10am then the £12 minimum fare may apply. There is only one train in this category: Northern's stopper 0948 Manchester - 1018 Macclesfield - Stoke 1042.

John

 

[yorkie]

I don't think they could say a minimum fare could apply because the train left before 1000 if the passenger didn't. It says it applies to "journeys made at or before 10am Monday to Friday," but the journey wouldn't be. If they say you can't start short, then they'd charge a new fare. If you can start short, but your journey starts after 10am then they can't justify charging as if it did start before 10am.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I see no problem with starting the journey short at Maccclesfield after 10am, the journey is starting after 10am and the ticket is not restricted at that time. The ticket's restriction (2V) is set by Cross Country and so does not restrict Break of Journey.

....In changing from, say, Bradford Forster Square to Interchange, in theory if you entered a shop on the way between the stations, then you could be accused of breaking your journey....

Not true, the rules state that you are breaking your journey if you leave railway premises other than to change stations, stay in overnight accomodation or to follow staff instructions. Visiting a shop on the way between stations is therefore not a break of journey.

 

[yorkie]

Not true, the rules state that you are breaking your journey if you leave railway premises other than to change stations, stay in overnight accomodation or to follow staff instructions. Visiting a shop on the way between stations is therefore not a break of journey.

I'd like to agree with you, and it's totally unenforceable but it could be argued that entering any other premises between stations is "other than to change stations, stay in overnight accomodation or to follow staff instructions" otherwise you could do a whole days' shopping in Bradford, London or Birmingham (among others) on a ticket that doesn't allow BOJ on that basis. (well, in reality, you could....)