Am I on an off-peak service?

[nitten_travell]

Morning all,

I'm currently on the 0900 from Edinburgh to Newcastle. I'd intended to board the 0930 but as I got to Waverley earlier than planned I jumped on this one. As the doors closed I realised that I possess an off-peak return! I tried to find the train manager; one of the staff in first class suggested I wait in coach H, which I did.

Train manager arrives, I explain my silliness and expect to be charged more money but he replies "no, this an off peak return, you're fine. If you had an Advance then you'd have to pay a fare difference, but this is fine" stamped the ticket and went to the buffet to pick up his bacon roll and coffee.

I thought that any train leaving Waverley before 0930 was peak? The code on the ticket is 3V. Did I just get a nice train manager?

 

[318266]

National Rail says that 3V means you can't catch a train departing between 0259 and 0930 Mon-Fri. So yes, you did get a nice train manager.

 

[nickswift99]

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/3V says not valid before 0930.

It's your lucky day - possibly because you were honest?

 

[nitten_travell]

Well I hope he got an extra slice of bacon in his roll!

Out of interest, how do I work out the extra cost had he chosen to charge me?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Well I hope he got an extra slice of bacon in his roll!

Out of interest, how do I work out the extra cost had he chosen to charge me?

The difference between the cost of the ticket you held, and the cost of the cheapest ticket that was valid for immediate travel at the time. So, likely an Anytime Return. The difference from an Off-Peak Return would thus be £26.10 at the undiscounted fare, or £17.25 if the ticket was Railcard discounted.

 

[318266]

You paid (according to BRFares) £26.10 less than you should have.

 

[jimbo99]

Hard to say if he was "nice"... he obviously thought the ticket was valid when it wasn't. Isn't this a problem? You get railway staff that say something like this. Passenger comes to rely on it and on a later journey (further down the track, if you like!) he gets some trouble and ends up in "disputes and prosecutions" where it is suggested it is his fault....

To me, better responses would be:
1) Sir, your ticket isn't valid because XXX. In future you should XXX, but I'm happy for you to be here so will endorse your ticket for this journey.
2) Sir, your ticket isn't valid because XXX. The extra cost will be XXX.
3) Sir, I don't understand ticketing. I won't take it any further - that's not to say anyone else won't.

 

[nitten_travell]

The difference between the cost of the ticket you held, and the cost of the cheapest ticket that was valid for immediate travel at the time. So, likely an Anytime Return. The difference from an Off-Peak Return would thus be £26.10 at the undiscounted fare, or £17.25 if the ticket was Railcard discounted.

Thank you very much.

I originally was going to buy an Anytime return from Newtongrange to Newcastle (0830 from Newtongrange) at a princely £90 or so when I realised that I could save quite a bit by splitting the tickets as I don't actually need to be in Newcastle terribly early so just needed Anytime from Newtongrange then Off peak for the rest of the day. I think lack of breakfast and coffee clouded my thinking when I jumped on this train.

As a bonus, the first stop is Newcastle so it's pretty speedy!

Thanks for your replies.

 

[Mag_seven]

There is no such thing as an "off peak train". There are "off peak tickets" which may or may not be valid on a particular train. Some "off peak tickets" will be valid on a particular train, others won't be.

 

[Silverdale]

Isn't this a problem? You get railway staff that say something like this. Passenger comes to rely on it and on a later journey (further down the track, if you like!) he gets some trouble and ends up in "disputes and prosecutions" where it is suggested it is his fault....

I think that is very much the case. Not only in the case of ticket validity, but of the need to buy a ticket before boarding. My experience of travelling far and wide recently, is that is common practice for tickets to be issued on the train, even where working ticket facilities exist at the boarding station and that was stated by the customer as their starting point. Of the numerous instances I observed, in no case was the customer reminded that buying a ticket before boarding was required.

It is fair enough for staff to exercise discretion, but they must make it very clear that is what they are doing.

In the OP's case the TM was not showing discretion, but actually said the ticket was fine. If the OP had not first asked the question on this forum, but as a result of what he has been told, travels with his Off-Peak ticket on the 09:00 and is caught out the next time he makes the trip, his explanation that; "the bloke on the other train told me..." would be laughed at for being ridiculous, irrelevant or an outright lie by some posters here.

 

[cuccir]

I think that is very much the case. Not only in the case of ticket validity, but of the need to buy a ticket before boarding. My experience of travelling far and wide recently, is that is common practice for tickets to be issued on the train, even where working ticket facilities exist at the boarding station and that was stated by the customer as their starting point. Of the numerous instances I observed, in no case was the customer reminded that buying a ticket before boarding was required.

It is fair enough for staff to exercise discretion, but they must make it very clear that is what they are doing.

In the OP's case the TM was not showing discretion, but actually said the ticket was fine. If the OP had not first asked the question on this forum, but as a result of what he has been told, travels with his Off-Peak ticket on the 09:00 and is caught out the next time he makes the trip, his explanation that; "the bloke on the other train told me..." would be laughed at for being ridiculous, irrelevant or an outright lie by some posters here.

I think we can fall into the trap too much of telling other people how to do their job, so I don't like the 'must' here, but I'd endorse certainly (1) the experience in seeing that people are regularly sold tickets on trains where facilities exist at the station (I commute from Durham and this happens very frequently), and (2) a frustration that both an apparent lack of staff familiarity with ticketing rules and a desire to be helpful can add to confusion over what is and isn't allowed, given in particular the very severe punishments that people can face (specifically, a criminal record and costly fine)

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I think we can fall into the trap too much of telling other people how to do their job, so I don't like the 'must' here, but I'd endorse certainly (1) the experience in seeing that people are regularly sold tickets on trains where facilities exist at the station (I commute from Durham and this happens very frequently), and (2) a frustration that both an apparent lack of staff familiarity with ticketing rules and a desire to be helpful can add to confusion over what is and isn't allowed, given in particular the very severe punishments that people can face (specifically, a criminal record and costly fine)

Well, in terms of ticketing, there are no criminal records or fines for getting it wrong with Off-Peak or geographic route restrictions. But there theoretically could with TOC restrictions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is no such thing as an "off peak train". There are "off peak tickets" which may or may not be valid on a particular train. Some "off peak tickets" will be valid on a particular train, others won't be.

With any fare priced by XC and quite a lot of other fares valid on XC as well, it's a simple "not before 0930".

 

[Silverdale]

Well, in terms of ticketing, there are no criminal records or fines for getting it wrong with Off-Peak or geographic route restrictions. But there theoretically could with TOC restrictions.

I'm not sure whether the test for good customer service should be whether the customer faces being fined and/or given a criminal record.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I'm not sure whether the test for good customer service should be whether the customer faces being fined and/or given a criminal record.

Oh, there's certainly no question that the rail industry's policy towards ticketing represents unbelievably bad customer service overall. But there are some easy to make mistakes which are at least not punishable criminally.

 

[Silverdale]

So when you say; "there are no criminal records or fines for getting it wrong with Off-Peak or geographic route restrictions", do you mean that travelling off route, or with an Off-Peak ticket on a train on which it is restricted, is allowed? Or just that the customer is given the option of paying for an excess, and that only a refusal to pay gets the customer into prosecution territory?

Misinformation which leads to a customer being given the choice of paying more or being prosecuted, rather than being prosecuted by default, still isn't remotely excusable.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

So when you say; "there are no criminal records or fines for getting it wrong with Off-Peak or geographic route restrictions", do you mean that travelling off route, or with an Off-Peak ticket on a train on which it is restricted, is allowed? Or just that the customer is given the option of paying for an excess, and that only a refusal to pay gets the customer into prosecution territory?

Misinformation which leads to a customer being given the choice of paying more or being prosecuted, rather than being prosecuted by default, still isn't remotely excusable.

There are no criminal records or fines for getting it wrong - just liability to the relevant excess. Non-payment of that excess may lead to prosecution, however.

No matter which way you look at it, it isn't customer friendly.

 

[Haywain]

do you mean that travelling off route, ... on a train on which it is restricted, is allowed?

That's a gray (or grey) area. If an excess is available it should be charged but it isn't always available and that could then be a different case.

 

[Haywain]

As for the idea that comments should advise that a customer is receiving the benefit of discretion, I have done this in the past and the reaction is generally rather unfavourable. Some have even chosen to make written complaints!

 

[Silverdale]

I could understand why a customer who believed they were entitled (e.g. to buy a ticket on the train) might question and even argue about why you were telling them that they weren't (but you would let them buy one anyway) Even to the extent of writing to complain because ("In the 10 years I have been travelling on this railway...") the entitlement had never been questioned before. It's the kind of thing people complain about when they have been led, falsely, to believe they are entitled.

The question is whether your company wants you to explain it to customers when you exercise discretion, and will back you up should they complain. Or opt for less interaction and a quieter life, but wallop the occasional customer who believes they are entitled, with a prosecution/fine as and when it sees fit.

 

[Kite159]

You went up to the guard to explain the position, the guard decided to allow you to travel (afterall it was only half an hour earlier than the ticket permitted) or didn't quite recall the exact restrictions of that ticket so gave you the benefit of the doubt.

Now on the other hand if you were sat down and the guard came to you (although ticket checks on LNER seem to be very hit & miss, but considering it was fast to Newcastle there shouldn't be any real excuse not to), it might have been a different story.

 

[button_boxer]

There is no such thing as an "off peak train". There are "off peak tickets" which may or may not be valid on a particular train. Some "off peak tickets" will be valid on a particular train, others won't be.

This. Take as an example the 0924 service from Sheffield to Derby (which continues to Birmingham and beyond). A Sheffield to Derby off-peak return ticket is valid on this train (restriction 2O allows any train from 0900 onwards) but a Sheffield to Birmingham off-peak return ticket is not (restriction 2V only allows travel from 0930).

 

[Clip]

This. Take as an example the 0924 service from Sheffield to Derby (which continues to Birmingham and beyond). A Sheffield to Derby off-peak return ticket is valid on this train (restriction 2O allows any train from 0900 onwards) but a Sheffield to Birmingham off-peak return ticket is not (restriction 2V only allows travel from 0930).

So as Mag_seven said then - its the ticket as the ticket in question has a restriction placed upon it!

 

[sheff1]

With any fare priced by XC and quite a lot of other fares valid on XC as well, it's a simple "not before 0930".

That is not the case.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

That is not the case.

Indeed - many Off-Peak Day Returns priced by XC have restriction code BX, which has evening peak restrictions in addition to the morning peak restrictions. I haven't looked to see if there are any Off-Peak fares set by them that are more lenient than 2V, but if there are, they are probably for very unusual flows.

 

[yorkie]

The Guard was entitled to charge you the excess. Perhaps you were let off because you approached the Guard or perhaps the Guard didn't realise what restriction applied to your ticket. There are hundreds of restrictions. Guards do not always look them up. Often customers are let off without an excess but I have to assist in many cases where a customer is charged an excess incorrectly when they held a perfectly valid ticket.

I originally was going to buy an Anytime return from Newtongrange to Newcastle (0830 from Newtongrange) at a princely £90 or so when I realised that I could save quite a bit by splitting the tickets ...

Did you calculate your own or use Trainsplit? The cheapest walk-up combination found by Trainsplit is to split at Shawfair and Berwick if taking the 0830 and then the 0908 from Edinburgh (which calls at Berwick) or if you take the 0900 and then 1000 from Edinburgh it's cheaper to split at Edinburgh and Alnmouth.

In the past it was not necessary to buy more than one ticket, as most TOCs continued British Rail's tradition of non-London area Saver Returns (which are now often called Off Peak Returns) being valid at any time for many years. But due to pressure from the Department for Transport, many customers are now charged expensive Anytime Returns for this sort of journey. It's absolute madness to pay for such a high fare for the entire journey, hence the need to use a combination of tickets, so you only pay for Anytime fares for part of the journey.

In short: the DfT and TOCs with aggressive pricing strategies are encouraging split ticketing!

 

[sheff1]

I haven't looked to see if there are any Off-Peak fares set by them that are more lenient than 2V, but if there are, they are probably for very unusual flows.

Yes, there are 100s. Whether the flows are unusual would be a matter of opinion