Man who'd drunk six pints couldn't get the train home

[bramling]

This is not an isolated incident on Merseyrail. I know of a perfectly respectable lady who slipped slightly on high heels recently and was refused entry to the station for being drunk and have regularly seen others refused. There is a big difference between being drunk and having consumed alcohol. This attitude is causing a lot of friction on Merseyside. If you are denied access to trains to Wirral in the late evening there is no option other than a very expensive taxi ride through the tunnel. I live in Spital and the cost would be at least £15. It's not as if you can walk home from Liverpool - it isn't possible to those who don't know the area.

It’s no surprise Merseyrail is twitchy about people unfit to travel after the James Street incident.

£15 isn’t a massive amount in the grand scheme of things to fork out for a taxi, certainly not the end of the world. If people have money for drink then they can find money for a taxi fare.

 

[yorksrob]

In my drinking days (now been teetotal for 7 years through choice) I used to go for a few bevvies after work ( I work in Liverpool city centre and Moorfields is the nearest station) I used to get the train home to Southport.
I would find a seat and fall asleep and be no bother to no-one, although I remember on one occasion vomiting out of the windows between Hillside & Birkdale and redecorating the outside of the train . (Not something I am proud about now).
But if you go to any of the city centre stations (Liverpool Central/Moorfields/Liverpool Lime St/James St) there are promiment posters which state if you are under the influence of alcohol Merseyrail have the right to refuse you access to the stations and trains.
As others have said , imagine if he had suffered an accident on the train/station it would all be over the local media, and so Merseyrail are in a no-win situation and perhaps the travelling public should exert some self restraint in their drinking habits.

There's no one so fanatical as a convert.

The railway authorities should have good reason for banning someone from taking a train. That doesn't include dropping a ticket or slipping on one's high heels.

 

[whhistle]

Perhaps this is what we've bred as a culture...
Companies afraid to take people who appear like they cannot take 100% care of themselves.
The American way of suing people left right and centre is not a good culture.

Slipping on a heel, or dropping a ticket could easily show you in a light that would cause someone to think you are unfit to travel.

 

[Clip]

There's no one so fanatical as a convert.

The railway authorities should have good reason for banning someone from taking a train. That doesn't include dropping a ticket or slipping on one's high heels.

again - that is not why he was stopped from taking the train - I dont know why you persist in this way when its wrong

 

[Mikey C]

To me, surely the rail industry has some sort of moral obligation to get people home, unless they there's clear evidence that they would be a danger to themselves or perhaps more importantly other people (i.e. if they were clearly aggressive before being stopped by staff.

Generations of drunks have got home by train, frankly the last trains out of London termini or the later tube trains would be virtually empty if people who had had a few drinks were barred, especially in the Christmas party season.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Perhaps this is what we've bred as a culture...
Companies afraid to take people who appear like they cannot take 100% care of themselves.
The American way of suing people left right and centre is not a good culture.

Slipping on a heel, or dropping a ticket could easily show you in a light that would cause someone to think you are unfit to travel.

First of all, how is the personal opinion of that "someone" regulated and moderated to prevent them unilaterally believing it's a reasonable and appropriate decision that a small act of clumsiness could "easily" mean someone is not fit to travel? Second, for the person who has already bought a ticket, how is this in any way a fulfilment of their contract with The Railway? There's no rule against having a drink or even being pretty merry.

 

[coppercapped]

The National Conditions of Travel (October 2016) state:

19. Showing consideration for other passengers
19.1 You should show consideration for other passengers, so that everyone is able to have an enjoyable travel experience on the National Rail Network. Anti-social and criminal behaviour, in particular, affects other passengers and can prevent them from enjoying their journey.
19.2 This behaviour is covered by the Railway Byelaws, which apply to anyone on railway property, regardless of whether they have a Ticket or not.

In turn the Railway Byelaws state:

4 Intoxication and possession of intoxicating liquor
(1) No person shall enter or remain on the railway where such person is unfit to enter or remain on the railway as a result of being in a state of intoxication.
(2) Where reasonable notice is, or has been, given prohibiting intoxicating liquor on any train service, no person shall have any intoxicating liquor with him on it, or attempt to enter such a train with intoxicating liquor with him.
(3) Where an authorised person reasonably believes that any person is unfit to enter or remain on the railway, or has with him intoxicating liquor contrary to Byelaw 4(2), an authorised person may:

(i) require him to leave the railway; and
(ii) prevent him entering or remaining on the railway until an authorised person is satisfied that he has no intoxicating liquor with him and/or is no longer in an unfit condition.​

5. Unfit to be on the railway
No person shall enter or remain on the railway if, in the reasonable opinion of an authorised person, he is in an unfit or improper condition or his clothing may soil or damage any part of the railway or the property or clothing of any person on the railway

6. Unacceptable behaviour
(1) No person shall use any threatening, abusive, obscene or offensive language on the railway.
(2) No person shall behave in a disorderly, indecent or offensive manner on the railway.
(3) No person shall write, draw, paint or fix anything on the railway.
(4) No person shall soil any part of the railway.
(5) No person shall damage or detach any part of the railway.
(6) No person shall spit on the railway.
(7) No person shall drop litter or leave waste on the railway.
(8) No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway.

I leave any conclusions to the reader...

 

[greyman42]

To me, surely the rail industry has some sort of moral obligation to get people home, unless they there's clear evidence that they would be a danger to themselves or perhaps more importantly other people (i.e. if they were clearly aggressive before being stopped by staff.

Generations of drunks have got home by train, frankly the last trains out of London termini or the later tube trains would be virtually empty if people who had had a few drinks were barred, especially in the Christmas party season.

This is true. TFL and the operators out of London seem to have a much more relaxed attitude than Merseyrail. Some visitors going to Liverpool for the day who read this might have second thoughts which does the local economy no favours.

 

[trainophile]

In my drinking days (now been teetotal for 7 years through choice) I used to go for a few bevvies after work ( I work in Liverpool city centre and Moorfields is the nearest station) I used to get the train home to Southport.
I would find a seat and fall asleep and be no bother to no-one, although I remember on one occasion vomiting out of the windows between Hillside & Birkdale and redecorating the outside of the train . (Not something I am proud about now).
But if you go to any of the city centre stations (Liverpool Central/Moorfields/Liverpool Lime St/James St) there are promiment posters which state if you are under the influence of alcohol Merseyrail have the right to refuse you access to the stations and trains.
As others have said , imagine if he had suffered an accident on the train/station it would all be over the local media, and so Merseyrail are in a no-win situation and perhaps the travelling public should exert some self restraint in their drinking habits.

That’s a clever trick, vomiting out of a Merseyrail window. Or were you travelling in the luggage rack?

 

[yorksrob]

again - that is not why he was stopped from taking the train - I dont know why you persist in this way when its wrong

According to the local users of the Merseyrail system on here, over-zelous barring of passengers is a regular occurrence on that system. I'm more inclined to believe them, than someone based in Chiltern-land such as yourself.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s a clever trick, vomiting out of a Merseyrail window. Or were you travelling in the luggage rack?

Pre-refurb the PEP windows did open very wide, it wouldn't be hard from a standing position to vomit out of one, though the only train window I've ever vomited out of (as a kid) was a door droplight.

 

[Bletchleyite]

According to the local users of the Merseyrail system on here, over-zelous barring of passengers is a regular occurrence on that system. I'm more inclined to believe them, than someone based in Chiltern-land such as yourself.

As I've said it only takes watching the Merseyrail related episode of "The Railway" from a couple of years ago, then one of the GWR ones (or the Paddington Station documentary), to see an absolutely enormous difference in attitude. The London TOCs are very much minded to get people on their way with minimal friction, whereas Merseyrail's "rent-a-thugs" are minded to tell people to get lost.

A key difference may well be the price of a taxi - it's expensive but not ridiculously so to take one to the outer reaches of Merseyrail (give or take beyond Hooton), but if you stop someone going to Reading or MKC by train you're going to have them kipping the night on the station floor (or just outside) and causing more trouble - a hotel isn't going to take them either.

 

[yorksrob]

As I've said it only takes watching the Merseyrail related episode of "The Railway" from a couple of years ago, then one of the GWR ones (or the Paddington Station documentary), to see an absolutely enormous difference in attitude. The London TOCs are very much minded to get people on their way with minimal friction, whereas Merseyrail's "rent-a-thugs" are minded to tell people to get lost.

A key difference may well be the price of a taxi - it's expensive but not ridiculously so to take one to the outer reaches of Merseyrail (give or take beyond Hooton), but if you stop someone going to Reading or MKC by train you're going to have them kipping the night on the station floor (or just outside) and causing more trouble - a hotel isn't going to take them either.

To be honest, even up here taxi's can be quite expensive. I've missed the last train myself a couple of times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest, even up here taxi's can be quite expensive. I've missed the last train myself a couple of times.

Ormskirk say wouldn't be cheap (30-40 quid maybe?) but then again Euston to MKC would be well into three figures.

One thing that's notable is that the London TOCs don't tend to use private security guards, it's all proper railway staff, whereas the TOCs up north do. Private security guards have a very different mentality to railway staff.

 

[yorksrob]

Ormskirk say wouldn't be cheap (30-40 quid maybe?) but then again Euston to MKC would be well into three figures.

One thing that's notable is that the London TOCs don't tend to use private security guards, it's all proper railway staff, whereas the TOCs up north do. Private security guards have a very different mentality to railway staff.

Yes, relying on glorified bouncers to police the railway is a bad idea. Government knows it can get away with it (along with everything else) in the provinces.

 

[bramling]

Yes, relying on glorified bouncers to police the railway is a bad idea. Government knows it can get away with it (along with everything else) in the provinces.

Surely it’s a TOC decision?

 

[JamesT]

Surely it’s a TOC decision?

It’s previously been mentioned (on other threads) that some TOCs have headcount restrictions in their franchise agreements. They’re not allowed to have more proper staff, but getting an agency to do some of these tasks sidesteps that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, relying on glorified bouncers to police the railway is a bad idea. Government knows it can get away with it (along with everything else) in the provinces.

The purpose of a "bouncer" is, by and large, to turn away or remove anyone they don't like and make them someone else's problem. Railway staff are more interested in ensuring overall safety without chucking people out being the first course of action.

 

[Clip]

According to the local users of the Merseyrail system on here, over-zelous barring of passengers is a regular occurrence on that system. I'm more inclined to believe them, than someone based in Chiltern-land such as yourself.

Im not based in Chiltern land but again I have to point out that no matter how you try and wriggle out of it your statements on this matter as to why they are barred are false

 

[Bletchleyite]

Im not based in Chiltern land but again I have to point out that no matter how you try and wriggle out of it your statements on this matter as to why they are barred are false

They aren't false; watch the documentaries I mentioned. Merseyrail absolutely does take a very different approach to this than every other TOC.

 

[Bantamzen]

No option for "I suspect that's not quite the whole story from him", which would've been my choice

I think this may be the correct answer. Do we actually know that the gentleman in question actually did only have 6 pints, and not considerably more?

 

[bramling]

They aren't false; watch the documentaries I mentioned. Merseyrail absolutely does take a very different approach to this than every other TOC.

In other words, they’re the only TOC which actually makes any attempt at enforcing the byelaws.

Good on them I say. For people like shift workers going home from work, anything which removes drunks off trains is very much a good thing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think this may be the correct answer. Do we actually know that the gentleman in question actually did only have 6 pints, and not considerably more?

Even if he'd had 15, there is definitely a massive difference in approach to this between Merseyrail and every other TOC.

I've been on Silverlink/LM/LNR services (and indeed on Merseyrail years ago prior to the current regime) in a state where I definitely would not have been admitted to Merseyrail, from what I've seen, as have a very large number of those you'll see on Saturday evening trains from Euston between about 2200 and the 0015 (fixed, no 01anything on a Sat). (No, I didn't cause any trouble, I just fell asleep).

 

[Bletchleyite]

In other words, they’re the only TOC which actually makes any attempt at enforcing the byelaws.

Good on them I say. For people like shift workers going home from work, anything which removes drunks off trains is very much a good thing.

I'd much rather the existing offences with regard to poor behaviour when drunk were enforced. A drunk asleep in the corner is no harm to anyone.

 

[bramling]

I'd much rather the existing offences with regard to poor behaviour when drunk were enforced. A drunk asleep in the corner is no harm to anyone.

They may however pose a risk when on the platform, or for example if the train needs to be detrained. Hence why staff reserve the right to declare people unfit to travel.

It actually *does* happen elsewhere - it happens on LU all the time, just that staff won’t use force if the person ignores being told to leave. However there’s plenty of cases where staff will, for example, use the gate line to stop people getting in if unsteady on their feet or whatever.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They may however pose a risk when on the platform, or for example if the train needs to be detrained. Hence why staff reserve the right to declare people unfit to travel.

It actually *does* happen elsewhere - it happens on LU all the time, just that staff won’t use force if the person ignores being told to leave. However there’s plenty of cases where staff will, for example, use the gate line to stop people getting in if unsteady on their feet or whatever.

The threshold on LU is absolutely a lot higher than Merseyrail, though.

 

[Bantamzen]

Even if he'd had 15, there is definitely a massive difference in approach to this between Merseyrail and every other TOC.

I've been on Silverlink/LM/LNR services (and indeed on Merseyrail years ago prior to the current regime) in a state where I definitely would not have been admitted to Merseyrail, from what I've seen, as have a very large number of those you'll see on Saturday evening trains from Euston between about 2200 and the 0115. (No, I didn't cause any trouble, I just fell asleep).

I don't doubt there is, I've seen the documentary mentioned up thread (although I've not used Merseyrail for some years), and seen the discussion on their policies. But the point being is that we are assuming here that the fella was only a bit drunk, we actually don't know for sure how he actually behaved or how much he had to drink. Whilst there is most certainly a duty of care to passengers in getting them home, this has to be balanced with a duty of care for everyone on the train. Some people can change quite dramatically after just a few pints. I think without full knowledge of the facts some cynicism about his version is not unwarranted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't doubt there is, I've seen the documentary mentioned up thread (although I've not used Merseyrail for some years), and seen the discussion on their policies. But the point being is that we are assuming here that the fella was only a bit drunk, we actually don't know for sure how he actually behaved or how much he had to drink. Whilst there is most certainly a duty of care to passengers in getting them home, this has to be balanced with a duty of care for everyone on the train. Some people can change quite dramatically after just a few pints. I think without full knowledge of the facts some cynicism about his version is not unwarranted.

To be fair to them I've also noticed a significant difference between the way drunk people on trains tend to act in the London area and how they tend to act up north which might suggest that often a Northern drunk is more of a threat than a Southern drunk (and I say that as a Northerner in exile down South who is often quite disappointed at some of the behaviour he sees on returning "home"). Quite why this is I have no idea, though.

The Tube is full of people off their heads on Saturday evenings yet it seems *mostly* to be reasonably good natured.

 

[Bantamzen]

To be fair to them I've also noticed a significant difference between the way drunk people on trains tend to act in the London area and how they tend to act up north which might suggest that often a Northern drunk is more of a threat than a Southern drunk (and I say that as a Northerner in exile down South who is often quite disappointed at some of the behaviour he sees on returning "home"). Quite why this is I have no idea, though.

The Tube is full of people off their heads on Saturday evenings yet it seems *mostly* to be reasonably good natured.

<Cue Southern Shandy jokes>

Seriously though I couldn't begin to explain this, although when I watched that documentary recently with the aftermath of the Orange Parade at Southport, as an Scouser by birth I literally cringed at some of the people rocking up to the station. And sadly I see it a lot in Leeds too, especially at the weekends, and especially at the height of the stag / hen party season. I like a drink or three, but always know when I'm hitting the limit of being capable of getting home under my own steam without causing issues for others, and active auto-pilot to get me home!

 

[Wolfie]

Perhaps this is what we've bred as a culture...
Companies afraid to take people who appear like they cannot take 100% care of themselves.
The American way of suing people left right and centre is not a good culture.

Slipping on a heel, or dropping a ticket could easily show you in a light that would cause someone to think you are unfit to travel.

My ex had a degenerative neurological disease which could to the lay person manifest itself as her being drunk. In actual fact she was teetotal. Indeed some of the meds she was on reacted, according to the safety leaflets, very badly with alcohol.
If she had come across an individual working for a TOC who displayed the attitudes you mention then action through the Equality Commission and/or if necessary the County Court to ensure that the TOC paid for any additional costs she incurred (and probably significant additional compensation) would have been guaranteed.