ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[BRX]

Various people are mentioning the cost. Do you actually have any info though? Have you seen the figures? Do you know how they'd compare to new stock, taking into account the expected lifespan? Does a part of any cost overrun end up being paid for by the govt or does it all fall to Abellio? Are there any real numbers to discuss or is it just speculative moaning.
Yes, like many projects they are going to be delivered late. The sky has not yet fallen in. Seems a bit premature to go into 'absolute disaster' mode. Let's see how they go in service.

 

[Altnabreac]

Thanks for sharing - I think that completely trashes the idea espoused by many here that nothing other than the HST will do.

The brief for the Intercity stock was very much neutral on exactly which option would be chosen leaving that choice up to the operator.

The expectation was very much that there were 4 likely options that would meet the brief:

• 170s with internal re-organisation and vestibule doors to stop the passenger space opening directly onto the Highland Winter;
• Voyagers but with seat realignment and the toilet issues sorted;
• Refurbished HSTs;
• New DMU or Hybrid stock.

The 170s however were unlikely to meet the bonus speed improvement criteria that were a preferred but not a required option for Intercity in the franchise spec, unless they were re-engined which would bring all sorts of emission compliance issues to be considered.

I'd certainly say its too early to suggest that refurbishment of HSTs was the wrong option compared to new stock. Equally I'd say its too early to suggest that Serco were wrong to suggest that new stock was the answer on the Caledonian Sleeper rather than refurbishment.

Both schemes have suffered delays but the judgment will need to be on the quality and reliability of the final product as both projects demonstrate that new or refurbished stock are equally capable of delayed introductions.

 

[Journeyman]

I'd certainly say its too early to suggest that refurbishment of HSTs was the wrong option compared to new stock. Equally I'd say its too early to suggest that Serco were wrong to suggest that new stock was the answer on the Caledonian Sleeper rather than refurbishment.

Both schemes have suffered delays but the judgment will need to be on the quality and reliability of the final product as both projects demonstrate that new or refurbished stock are equally capable of delayed introductions.

I've got insider knowledge on the state of the existing Sleeper stock, and I can tell you that despite all the delays, replacement was absolutely the right option - there's absolutely no way you could keep the existing vehicles running reliably for much longer, and you'd be screwed taking them out of use for refurbs as there's so few spares available. Looks like the HSTs were/are just as bad, and this is exactly the sort of problem you'd have if you were trying to refurb sleeper vehicles.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've got insider knowledge on the state of the existing Sleeper stock, and I can tell you that despite all the delays, replacement was absolutely the right option - there's absolutely no way you could keep the existing vehicles running reliably for much longer, and you'd be screwed taking them out of use for refurbs as there's so few spares available. Looks like the HSTs were/are just as bad, and this is exactly the sort of problem you'd have if you were trying to refurb sleeper vehicles.

Though GWR are doing just that.

The big issue on CS is the Mk2s, which would have required replacement as they are falling to bits being somewhere around 50 years old. The otherwise obvious idea of replacing them with Mk3s is non-viable due to train length issues, so they'd have had to order *something* new or abandon the provision of seated coaches altogether (replacing the pair of Mk2s with a combined brake-lounge car).

 

[Journeyman]

Though GWR are doing just that.

The big issue on CS is the Mk2s, which would have required replacement as they are falling to bits being somewhere around 50 years old. The otherwise obvious idea of replacing them with Mk3s is non-viable due to train length issues, so they'd have had to order *something* new or abandon the provision of seated coaches altogether (replacing the pair of Mk2s with a combined brake-lounge car).

There's more to it than that - there's a number of differences between CS and the Night Riviera.

GWR's sleeper operation is a lot smaller, and they have more spare vehicles to provide downtime for refurbs. Their fleet also leads a slightly more charmed life - shorter distance over a single route with no en-route shunting, so there's less wear on the vehicles and they seem to be in better nick. I believe they also have a number of exemptions from PRM-TSI regulations which Caledonian Sleeper don't have, so they don't need to worry about slam doors etc.

The biggest influencing factor, though, is that there's still bit of a question mark over the long-term future of the Night Riviera. There's no guarantee it will last beyond the end of the franchise - when is that, anyway? - so a large investment is a scary thing to commit to without any guarantee of a return. Caledonian Sleeper were given the unique opportunity of a fifteen-year franchise and political commitment from both the UK and Scottish governments to fund major improvements and guarantee the continuation of the service, and in those circumstances, the decision to go for a new build seems like a no-brainer - although Serco were the only bidders that actually wanted to do so (which is probably why they won it).

 

[GrimShady]

The term is certainly extremely vague, and I think some people are interpreting it rather narrowly, especially the "underfloor engines are a tool of Satan" brigade. A lot of things could be done to bring significant improvement with a wide range of stock types, and in 2013 Hitrans put together some interesting proposals for 170 refurbs: https://hitrans.org.uk/documents/Turbo_Boost_-_Class_170_Refurbishment_Scoping_Project.pdf

The biggest flaw in the HST idea, quite apart from all the problems that have been experienced with the refurbs, is the short remaining life. Honestly, you'll get ten years tops, if that, and then you lumber the railway with a need to replace trains yet again, but this time you'll have a seriously nose-diving reliability problem on your hands. 170s may not be great but they're pretty robust, and the only failure I've experienced on the HML was the horn icing up! What the HST plan has done, according to an expert in such things that I have regular dealings with, is kick the can down the road for future rolling stock replacement, potentially lumbering the next incoming franchisee with a big problem that is going to make bidding a somewhat less attractive option. A different option could have seen things sorted for 20+ years and made things much more stable and sorted, while still delivering substantial improvements.

Where were they going to get the extra intermediate cars from for the four car versions?

Worth noting "Trolley based catering services and limited toilet facilities also result in a less than ideal level of passenger facilities on board the Class 170’s, when combined with the low level noise from the underslung engines and inherent interior vibration the Turbostar fleet offers a relatively poor level of passenger comfort and refinement"

The proposed first class upgrade isn't very inspiring Vs the GWR first class on HST.

 

[Journeyman]

Where were they going to get the extra intermediate cars from for the four car versions?

Worth noting "Trolley based catering services and limited toilet facilities also result in a less than ideal level of passenger facilities on board the Class 170’s, when combined with the low level noise from the underslung engines and inherent interior vibration the Turbostar fleet offers a relatively poor level of passenger comfort and refinement"

The proposed first class upgrade isn't very inspiring Vs the GWR first class on HST.

The plan was to reform some 3-car sets as 2-car, providing the vehicles for some 4-car sets. There's plenty of services in Scotland that are suitable for 2-car units.

God, stop obsessing about underfloor engines. 99.9% of people don't care. I can cope with it easily. It's far less annoying than a 40-year old train squeakily shaking itself to pieces.

 

[GrimShady]

The plan was to reform some 3-car sets as 2-car, providing the vehicles for some 4-car sets. There's plenty of services in Scotland that are suitable for 2-car units.

God, stop obsessing about underfloor engines. 99.9% of people don't care. I can cope with it easily. It's far less annoying than a 40-year old train squeakily shaking itself to pieces.

Just pointing out what the report said so it's not just the opinion of a few board members. As others have said it's subjective, personally I'll take the squealing over engines.

 

[jingsmonty]

Various people are mentioning the cost. Do you actually have any info though? Have you seen the figures? Do you know how they'd compare to new stock, taking into account the expected lifespan? Does a part of any cost overrun end up being paid for by the govt or does it all fall to Abellio? Are there any real numbers to discuss or is it just speculative moaning.
Yes, like many projects they are going to be delivered late. The sky has not yet fallen in. Seems a bit premature to go into 'absolute disaster' mode. Let's see how they go in service.

Sounds fair enough to me...

 

[jingsmonty]

Is that due to a hope for electrification on that timescale? Mind you, as I said they could have ordered 68+Mk5 and replaced the loco when the wires went up. The 68s would doubtless find other uses.

Do you really think that there is any realistic chance of the HML being electrified? I seriously doubt that. Class 68 +Mk5 wouldn't have had the performance potential of a short formed HST anyway

 

[jingsmonty]

Just pointing out what the report said so it's not just the opinion of a few board members. As others have said it's subjective, personally I'll take the squealing over engines.

I wouldn't. Personally, I tend to sit in the coach itself, rather than the vestibule. So I tend not to notice the phantom squeaking vestibules. As for '99.9% of passengers not caring', did you ask the passengers on the HML who make a point of using the LNER HST, rather than a Scotrail train? This was the finding of a consultant's report (comissioned by HiTrans, I think) a few years ago. They do so, because the product is far better. I feel this influenced the decision to go for HST in the 1st place....seems that business travellers on the HML prefer 'squeaky coaches' to rattly underfloor engines. The 170s aren't too bad, but some of the 158s are very noticeable - also had a journey in a 185 TPE train a while ago, with an engine which was annoyingly contantly revving up and idling.

 

[GrimShady]

I wouldn't. Personally, I tend to sit in the coach itself, rather than the vestibule. So I tend not to notice the phantom squeaking vestibules. As for '99.9% of passengers not caring', did you ask the passengers on the HML who make a point of using the LNER HST, rather than a Scotrail train? This was the finding of a consultant's report (comissioned by HiTrans, I think) a few years ago. They do so, because the product is far better. I feel this influenced the decision to go for HST in the 1st place....seems that business travellers on the HML prefer 'squeaky coaches' to rattly underfloor engines. The 170s aren't too bad, but some of the 158s are very noticeable - also had a journey in a 185 TPE train a while ago, with an engine which was annoyingly contantly revving up and idling.

Think you've responded to the wrong post. I support the introduction of HST over 170s.

 

[jingsmonty]

As others have said, WHY do we keep going on about how bad the HSTs are and why it's the wrong decision? We are nowhere near that point - all projects have overruns & unexpected delays.

I honestly can't think of any other train out there which would meet the performance criteria - a Voyager, perhaps? But don't seriously suggest that a Voyager is a better option, please! A Class 68 + Mk5, a Stadler FLIRT (which does look like an interesting design) or a CAF 195 wouldn't satisfy the performance criteria. A Class 170 certainly wouldn't!

 

[jingsmonty]

Think you've responded to the wrong post. I support the introduction of HST over 170s.

Apologies, GrimShady, I did exactly that! D'oh!

 

[mullac30]

As others have said, WHY do we keep going on about how bad the HSTs are and why it's the wrong decision? We are nowhere near that point - all projects have overruns & unexpected delays.

I honestly can't think of any other train out there which would meet the performance criteria - a Voyager, perhaps? But don't seriously suggest that a Voyager is a better option, please! A Class 68 + Mk5, a Stadler FLIRT (which does look like an interesting design) or a CAF 195 wouldn't satisfy the performance criteria. A Class 170 certainly wouldn't!

Hate to be that guy but a 4 car 755 has a fair bit more power on diesel than even a short HST, it should in fact be one of the fastest - if not, the accelerating diesel units on the network.

 

[Seaniboy]

As others have said, WHY do we keep going on about how bad the HSTs are and why it's the wrong decision? We are nowhere near that point - all projects have overruns & unexpected delays.

I honestly can't think of any other train out there which would meet the performance criteria - a Voyager, perhaps? But don't seriously suggest that a Voyager is a better option, please! A Class 68 + Mk5, a Stadler FLIRT (which does look like an interesting design) or a CAF 195 wouldn't satisfy the performance criteria. A Class 170 certainly wouldn't!

Agree completely, HST are perfectly a good stop gap until Scot Gov buy some great trains en mass for Scotland cos Westmincer ain’t ever going too. No doubt when the last running HST ever is pulled off SR it will be a big thing for people to come see up North, end of a generation and unlike Pacers they will be missed.

Now if only SR could get them on the tracks as promised that would be a start

 

[Seaniboy]

Hate to be that guy but a 4 car 755 has a fair bit more power on diesel than even a short HST, it should in fact be one of the fastest - if not, the accelerating diesel units on the network.

Problem is Scotland’s run down coastal tracks are hard enough worked, we lack branch lines network like England for detouring so a rail replacement means line closures, top speed trains in Scotland would not be cost effective without first massive line replacement and new pass ways (much needed, one late train here can throw the entire day).

They should have gave Scotland a £15B Queen Of Scots coastal circular line upgrade instead of a new line Elizabeth Line to a city/region that has more rail stations than the whole of Scotland.

We will see the best of everything including new trains when investment means Not For Profit TOC which is a lot better than elseplace U.K. will probably never have, for now still waiting on Abellio inter7city like a APT...with sore legs standing!

 

[Seaniboy]

Various people are mentioning the cost. Do you actually have any info though? Have you seen the figures? Do you know how they'd compare to new stock, taking into account the expected lifespan? Does a part of any cost overrun end up being paid for by the govt or does it all fall to Abellio? Are there any real numbers to discuss or is it just speculative moaning.
Yes, like many projects they are going to be delivered late. The sky has not yet fallen in. Seems a bit premature to go into 'absolute disaster' mode. Let's see how they go in service.

Cost will be Abellio, Scot Gov wanted longer trains as per bidding process.

 

[Seaniboy]

An HST makes better use of the space available (no intermediate cabs & doors in the wrong place). I think that refurbishing 170s s 6 car InterCity units would have been a harder job than you'd think. New engines/transmission would be a must. Bigger CET tanks as well, which would have been nigh-on impossible to fit. Refurbishing a Mk3 is probably a better (& possibly easier, despite the issues) option.

First Group proposed something like this in their last franchise bid - it didn't even finish 2nd.

First Group based on experience deserved bad positioning, same as National Express first SC TOC and now Abellio - all fail, they don’t spend money they shareholder it, it’s the same all over the U.K.

I used the trains pre 1997 and each SC TOC gets worse and worse, some of the stations are diabolical after twenty years TOC.

As I said previously it is a blessing after all these years Scot Gov has existed and both Tory Labour Westminster denied a Scot Gov the right to bid via a TOC holding company even with Labour Scotland in power at Holyrood.

Can’t see SR Abellio contract extension in the slightest, when you don’t have the overpopulated land mass England does you have less revenue but still have to make good returns to shareholders - Scotland/SR as a for profit TOC has done nothing less than degrade SR, Scot Gov and NRS are always spending cash on things for a private co to benefit.

 

[Seaniboy]

I wondered that but as all the carriages are the same light grey with no ident markings I thought maybe they just pulled some carriages off something else and removed idents for driver training given the First carriages on the other side of the track still have some graphics with the First ident logo removed.

That’s quite shocking though if it is, a fence anyone can jump over to the only existing HST refurb! I mean are we back at Britosh Rail ? Surely for security if they park them up there then it makes sense to have the refurb on the inside line and First carriage HST nearer the fence!?

Even planning HST side line storage is a bit beyond Abellio competence - management, butt from elbow comes to mind.

That's the refurbished set, you can see the rebuilt door and final paint scheme on the tiny bit of the carriage in the picture

 

[Seaniboy]

There in lies the blame. Whilst it’s a nice wish for scot gov. What are the chances of civil servants and politicians got of understanding the technical issues of their goal. ? I would suggest none. Transport Scotland have demonstrated time and time again a real knack for lack detail, risk assessment and common sense. Decisions are based on what looks good for the government and thier wider aspiration for the country. So no surprises if this turns out to be undeliverable or costly in the long term. It’s a Scottish Government speciality. !

SNP are reopening lines, fought for the right to have a Scot Gov state owned TOC and won - I’d say that’s more detailed and competent than what the rest of the U.K. network is getting.

Yes it will have more lessons to learn, having never run a network or TOC but you know what... progress is progressive and as I said before where else do you get that ? London region $tation$ only. So the SNP/Gov are doing a much better rail job than Tory/Labour/U.K.

 

[Chrism20]

Is this the ScotRail HST thread or a Party Political Broadcast for the Scottish National Party?

 

[Seaniboy]

Is this the ScotRail HST thread or a Party Political Broadcast for the Scottish National Party?

Sorry do you live in a unprogressive part of the U.K. where train service is getting worse and up north bucked the trend ?

Simple...move, you might even have a better chance of a EU passport


Wither right or wrong in opinion, HST stopgap was right short term solution whilst fighting for the right to run a TOC by Scots Gov, that’s from a Scotsman who uses Scotrail, moi, I’m sorry if the political offends you but it’s fact.

Politics and TOC go hand in hand (TOCs take a cut and gov makes £) even more up Scotland now comes the next upcoming franchise bid

I could have a EU passport and a real train service, jealous much ? Either one will suffice, two would be a trainspotters wet dream

 

[Chrism20]

Sorry do you live in a unprogressive part of the U.K. where train service is getting worse and up north bucked the trend ?

Simple...move, you might even have a better chance of a EU passport


Wither right or wrong in opinion, HST stopgap was right short term solution whilst fighting for the right to run a TOC by Scots Gov, that’s from a Scotsman who uses Scotrail, moi, I’m sorry if the political offends you but it’s fact.

Politics and TOC go hand in hand (TOCs take a cut and gov makes £) even more up Scotland now comes the next upcoming franchise bid

I could have a EU passport and a real train service, jealous much ? Either one will suffice, two would be a trainspotters wet dream

Born in Scotland and live in Scotland. This is a thread about HSTs, not the SNP and Scottish politics.

 

[Seaniboy]

Born in Scotland and live in Scotland. This is a thread about HSTs, not the SNP and Scottish politics.

Right so Scotland would have a worse rail network without Scots Gov and still no HST 2 carriages between Aberdeen and Edinburgh, politics has everything to do with Rail.

‘I dinnie vote, politics is nuthin to do we me’ - train users.

 

[Northhighland]

SNP trolls infect every part of Scottish life. It is incredibly boring. No matter the subject they feel the need to support the cult irrespective of the facts.

Look at the rest of Scottish public life and you see a mess. But this is not the place for such a discussion.

 

[gsnedders]

First Group based on experience deserved bad positioning, same as National Express first SC TOC and now Abellio - all fail, they don’t spend money they shareholder it, it’s the same all over the U.K.

I used the trains pre 1997 and each SC TOC gets worse and worse, some of the stations are diabolical after twenty years TOC.

As I said previously it is a blessing after all these years Scot Gov has existed and both Tory Labour Westminster denied a Scot Gov the right to bid via a TOC holding company even with Labour Scotland in power at Holyrood.

Can’t see SR Abellio contract extension in the slightest, when you don’t have the overpopulated land mass England does you have less revenue but still have to make good returns to shareholders - Scotland/SR as a for profit TOC has done nothing less than degrade SR, Scot Gov and NRS are always spending cash on things for a private co to benefit.

If it's getting worse and worse, why hasn't the Scottish Government increased the requirements for the franchisee in the ITT (and if that isn't enough, increase the penalties for breaking the franchise agreement)? It should not be getting progressively worse from one franchise to the next; if it has, the government has failed in setting the tender.

 

[GrimShady]

Abellio won't be around long, the futures Cal Mac, I have a very strong suspicion that will be the case.

I'm not an SNP supporter in the slightest nor any other political party. They are desperate for the vote so I say we use them to get what we want.

 

[Chrism20]

Right so Scotland would have a worse rail network without Scots Gov and still no HST 2 carriages between Aberdeen and Edinburgh, politics has everything to do with Rail.

‘I dinnie vote, politics is nuthin to do we me’ - train users.

2 carriages between Edinburgh and Aberdeen? They have been routinely three carriages for at least the last fifteen years.

 

[Northhighland]

As others have said, WHY do we keep going on about how bad the HSTs are and why it's the wrong decision? We are nowhere near that point - all projects have overruns & unexpected delays.

I honestly can't think of any other train out there which would meet the performance criteria - a Voyager, perhaps? But don't seriously suggest that a Voyager is a better option, please! A Class 68 + Mk5, a Stadler FLIRT (which does look like an interesting design) or a CAF 195 wouldn't satisfy the performance criteria. A Class 170 certainly wouldn't!

Think the issue here is we don’t know the cause of the delays at Wabtec. Frustrating as it is the explanation might not be so much to do with costs. Might be they have taken on too much work and are delivering a wee bit for everyone.

Might be a resourcing issue. Might be a combination of things. We simply don’t know. That is one of the frustrations here. We have little or no information.

The HST option was controversial at the time. There is a serious point why should the North cities of SCOTLAND get 40 year old trains when Edinburgh /Glasgow get brand new stock for much shorter journeys. We could have had 365’s permanently in central belt and new inter city trains. That is a political decision.

Whatever the truth of the delay slam door HST’s are a huge improvement over 170’s. You only have to be in Inverness station at 8pm when LNER service gets in to see that with your own eyes.

Time for moaning is past HST’s are coming effort should be in getting them working.