Keolis/Amey to take over Wales and Borders

[Gareth Marston]

If only the Welsh Government had anticipated this problem - you know the problem people have been predicting for years and years now.

Now now expecting them to assimilate information from those in the know, act on and be pro active in making the right choices?

 

[185]

On a 158 yesterday, I saw Trafnidiaeth Cymru/Transport for Wales on the digital display.

Was next to one the other week scrolling the pointless website address - and right on cue, when the big red train arrived depositing 200 passengers for the Welsh connection, all of them walked round to me to ask if the train next door is going to... X.

I'm hoping this kind of silliness will go soon. Front displays are for destinations, not adverts for www.creosote.com

 

[anthony263]

Ariva re had a single 153 on the 1115 from maesteg today which looked very busy when it passed garth as i drove my bus under the railway bridge

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was next to one the other week scrolling the pointless website address - and right on cue, when the big red train arrived depositing 200 passengers for the Welsh connection, all of them walked round to me to ask if the train next door is going to... X.

I'm hoping this kind of silliness will go soon. Front displays are for destinations, not adverts for www.creosote.com

There seems to be a culture of laziness at ATW with regard to setting destination displays correctly in my observation. Hopefully TfW will deal with this.

 

[craigybagel]

There seems to be a culture of laziness at ATW with regard to setting destination displays correctly in my observation. Hopefully TfW will deal with this.

Nothing to do with laziness but by and large it's limitations with the PIS systems, and/or very tight turnaround times.

 

[krus_aragon]

There seems to be a culture of laziness at ATW with regard to setting destination displays correctly in my observation. Hopefully TfW will deal with this.

In this instance it's something that materialised with the mid-life refurbishment of the 158s: The old original destination displays at the front (which used to alternate between Welsh and English, and worked very well, if a little dim due to old tech) now scroll continuously, often can't fit the destination's name on screen at once, and include "www.arrivtrainswales.co.uk" in the scrolling text.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In this instance it's something that materialised with the mid-life refurbishment of the 158s: The old original destination displays at the front (which used to alternate between Welsh and English, and worked very well, if a little dim due to old tech) now scroll continuously, often can't fit the destination's name on screen at once, and include "www.arrivtrainswales.co.uk" in the scrolling text.

The equipment is cheap rubbish, but this doesn't excuse not setting it.

 

[PHILIPE]

Ariva re had a single 153 on the 1115 from maesteg today which looked very busy when it passed garth as i drove my bus under the railway bridge

Actually, this not unusual now on the Cheltenham runs

 

[6Gtraincrew]

There seems to be a culture of laziness at ATW with regard to setting destination displays correctly in my observation. Hopefully TfW will deal with this.

Laziness?

More likely frustration caused by incorrect service numbers on the dockets, external displays not working, "route load failed" messages every time you enter the codes (which then work fine when you put it in a 2nd time, and the system regularly going out of sync due to GPS stopping working.

 

[craigybagel]

Laziness?

More likely frustration caused by incorrect service numbers on the dockets, external displays not working, "route load failed" messages every time you enter the codes (which then work fine when you put it in a 2nd time, and the system regularly going out of sync due to GPS stopping working.

This.

You only need to compare how often you see the screens set up on 175s Vs 158s. The only time a 175 doesn't work normally is if the station calling pattern has been amended due to disruption (most units will have had them off this weekend with the blockades between Warrington and Manchester and Shrewsbury and Hereford, for example). On a 158, you have to add in a degree of unreliability that is truly shocking. It's not down to laziness on train crews part at all - it's the fact that often the 158 system does more harm then good - especially if request stops are involved.

 

[PHILIPE]

This.

You only need to compare how often you see the screens set up on 175s Vs 158s. The only time a 175 doesn't work normally is if the station calling pattern has been amended due to disruption (most units will have had them off this weekend with the blockades between Warrington and Manchester and Shrewsbury and Hereford, for example). On a 158, you have to add in a degree of unreliability that is truly shocking. It's not down to laziness on train crews part at all - it's the fact that often the 158 system does more harm then good - especially if request stops are involved.

On 175s the calling patterns can be thrown out depending whether the trains call at Request Stops or not.

 

[PHILIPE]

Just saw a Class 143 go past with a big black sticker/laminate covering almost the whole side of the train saying something like: “TFW - The Start of a New...”

"The start of a New Journey." 143625 it was.

 

[craigybagel]

On 175s the calling patterns can be thrown out depending whether the trains call at Request Stops or not.

That's never happened in my experience - and I've got a lot of experience on 175s and request stops over the last 5 years. AIUI, the system on 175s works on wheel rotations, so you can open the doors as many times as you want and at as many stations, and it will work just fine.

158s on the other hand, are meant to work on GPS but the GPS is so unreliable that the majority of the time (and it really is the majority) it falls back to moving to the next station every time you release the doors. If you have to do the doors twice at a station for any reason, or stop at a request stop, then it will move on to the next station and get out of sync, and you have to reboot the whole system from scratch.

 

[sw1ller]

On 175s the calling patterns can be thrown out depending whether the trains call at Request Stops or not.

As craigybagel states, this never happens. What does happen on the 175s is the system goes into meltdown rather quite randomly and the driver has to mute the audio. Other times the driver has put in a code but started it at the wrong station so the system thinks it’s somewhere else. Other times it’s not correct on the docket (take Crewe to Chester for example, I’ve asked them time and time again to change it, I’ve even given them the correct code to use on the docket, but it’s always there, wrong every time, the code given is for Chester - Crewe, there’s two codes for the same run for some reason)

What I will agree with on the lazyness comment is on 150’s (and other manual blind trains). I’ve jumped on one that’s done the same run all day, and at 6pm I check it and it says a destination I know it’s not been to since at least the day before, that’s rather poor!

 

[Envoy]

Actually, this not unusual now on the Cheltenham runs

I saw a 153 on the Cheltenham to Maesteg run on Saturday. I could not believe the number of people who got off this westbound service at Severn Tunnel Junction. (Most were transferring to P1 for the Cardiff to Portsmouth service). A few minutes after it had left, a Cross Country HST came through. I wonder how many people in Cheltenham & Gloucester heading for south Wales, would have boarded that had it been in front of the 1 coach 153?

 

[142Pilot]

There seems to be a culture of laziness at ATW with regard to setting destination displays correctly in my observation. Hopefully TfW will deal with this.

Wow.

Enthusiast in being completely wrong shocker.

I'll think of this next time I am setting up my cab. Instead of setting off on time because I have decided to abort using the world's most temperamental system I will stay put and ensure that the pis is working - if needs be manually inputting the next station at every stop.

Never mind blocking the main line and lateness - at least the blinking light will be fine.

 

[craigybagel]

Aren't some of those year-round schemes? I know HOWL is winter-only, but I thought some lines were free for pass holders even in summer.

I've had my own confirmation email about it today. Conway Valley and the Welsh bit of Bidston - Wrexham are year round. Cambrian Coast and HOWL are winter only: October 1st to March 31st.

 

[Llanigraham]

I've had my own confirmation email about it today. Conway Valley and the Welsh bit of Bidston - Wrexham are year round. Cambrian Coast and HOWL are winter only: October 1st to March 31st.

I see some trips coming up!

 

[Tom Quinne]

Wow.

Enthusiast in being completely wrong shocker.

I'll think of this next time I am setting up my cab. Instead of setting off on time because I have decided to abort using the world's most temperamental system I will stay put and ensure that the pis is working - if needs be manually inputting the next station at every stop.

Never mind blocking the main line and lateness - at least the blinking light will be fine.

Exactly, 3 minute turnaround, shut down cab, collect up belongings, secure cab, walk up to the front cab (avoid quesions from passengers) get into cab, set down bag, coat etc, log into OTMR, GSMR, open desk, check lights..oh **** forgot the crappy destination blind or PIS.

Oh well what’s another 2 minutes delay in departure.

What do these people want right time departures on stupidly tight turn rounds that work on paper, but not in the real world or destination blinds displaying the correct destination. That’s what the multi million pound PIS system on stations is for !

I can assure you it’s not laznyess.

 

[Parallel]

The 158 PIS is hit and miss. I’ve done a whole Cambrian Coast run where it’s worked perfectly all journey. The guard adjusted something behind a panel though so every time the doors were released at a request stop, the voice would say “Passengers are advised that there is a gap between the train and platform. Please take care when leaving the train” and it didn’t go out of sync all journey despite stopping at nearly all request stops. It’s generally OK on routes with limited stops. I think the 175 system is more reliable though I’ve been on a train that got too far ahead of itself and announced “We will shortly be arriving at Llandudno Junction” as we rolled into Shrewsbury!

Maybe there should be 2 buttons that can be pressed in the cab - One for forwarding an announcement and one for rewinding back one!

It will be interesting to see what they go for in the 150s. I’m guessing the cheap system that GWR use in theirs.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The PIS on 175s was very poor when they were new.
They specialised in being one station out: This is Chester would be proudly announced at Helsby.
Nobody seemed able or willing to turn the thing off in such cases, as it carried on announcing Newton le Willows at Oxford Road.
Much more reliable now, but they are still limited by scrolling single-line LED displays.
On the other hand, 175s have always been cursed by multiple pointless generic announcements - litter, luggage, no smoking, mind the gap, SISIS* etc.
(*See It, Say It, Sorted).

Nationally, PIS displays are still sufficiently dodgy for no-one to trust them fully, hence the repeat questions to the crew about destination.
As with seat reservations, UK railways have never caught up with the continent on the reliability of train information, either on platforms or on trains.
It's worst on the ex-Regional TOCs who are still using primitive PIS systems on their old fleets.
Even the refurbished Northern 156s haven't yet got usable PIS yet.
Hopefully the new CAF/Stadler fleets will raise the bar.
Currently Thameslink (class 700) PIS is a cut above the rest.

 

[PHILIPE]

That's never happened in my experience - and I've got a lot of experience on 175s and request stops over the last 5 years. AIUI, the system on 175s works on wheel rotations, so you can open the doors as many times as you want and at as many stations, and it will work just fine.

158s on the other hand, are meant to work on GPS but the GPS is so unreliable that the majority of the time (and it really is the majority) it falls back to moving to the next station every time you release the doors. If you have to do the doors twice at a station for any reason, or stop at a request stop, then it will move on to the next station and get out of sync, and you have to reboot the whole system from scratch.

Obviously I have been misled on the 175s by somebody who told me that the opening of the doors governed the station lists, hence the reason for mentioning the request stops. Thanks for putting me right.

 

[greaterwest]

It will be interesting to see what they go for in the 150s. I’m guessing the cheap system that GWR use in theirs.

As I understand it, ATW and GWR both use TrainFX (except ATW use the nicer screens on the 158s, the same ones GWR use in their Turbos)

The GWR TrainFX seems to be far more reliable nowadays, but it used to be quite bad too.

 

[Cardiff123]

It's worth following TfW's main twitter account @transport_wales, which started putting out the spin tweets today, presumably until the @tfwrail handle goes live in 2 weeks.

 

[Parallel]

The GWR TrainFX seems to be far more reliable nowadays, but it used to be quite bad too.

I haven't really seen any improvement. Was on a 158 on Sunday that had the announcements off and the guard made a tannoy apologising due to there being a fault with the system. Also used a 150/158 combo later that day that also had them off. They were working on a Turbo this morning but went out of sync this evening (probably due to the train stopping at a local door station - one screen in the carriage also had no power) so were just switched off. I think it's just down to luck really. Fingers crossed the ATW/TfW system is more reliable. The last thing a guard would want is incorrect announcements when trying to collect revenue/ do the doors on Valley Line trains.

 

[craigybagel]

The 158 PIS is hit and miss. I’ve done a whole Cambrian Coast run where it’s worked perfectly all journey. The guard adjusted something behind a panel though so every time the doors were released at a request stop, the voice would say “Passengers are advised that there is a gap between the train and platform. Please take care when leaving the train” and it didn’t go out of sync all journey despite stopping at nearly all request stops. It’s generally OK on routes with limited stops. I think the 175 system is more reliable though I’ve been on a train that got too far ahead of itself and announced “We will shortly be arriving at Llandudno Junction” as we rolled into Shrewsbury!

Maybe there should be 2 buttons that can be pressed in the cab - One for forwarding an announcement and one for rewinding back one!

It will be interesting to see what they go for in the 150s. I’m guessing the cheap system that GWR use in theirs.

The 158 PIS is supposed to cope perfectly well with the Cambrian Coast - as it is with every route on the ATW network. When it's working correctly it copes perfectly well with request stops or recycling the doors or whatever. The problem is it's pretty rare for it to actually work that well. The folks at Machynlleth have been working hard to iron out the problems - they're the experts on 158s after all - but it's still very hit and miss. It's meant to be pre programmed to announce to mind the gap at certain stations, as is the system on 175s, but again it's rather hit and miss. There is an option to manually make it do those announcements (and various others) any time you wish - if you're near enough to the back cab to activate them.

They do also have the facility to skip a station forwards, but not backwards (or at least if you can I've not found that button yet!).

The only good thing is that because it can be controlled from either can, the guard can override it themselves if it goes wrong. On a 175 only the driver has control, so if something funny does happen it's harder to get it fixed.

Obviously I have been misled on the 175s by somebody who told me that the opening of the doors governed the station lists, hence the reason for mentioning the request stops. Thanks for putting me right.

No worries - it sounds like your source simply has 158s and 175s mixed up.

As I understand it, ATW and GWR both use TrainFX (except ATW use the nicer screens on the 158s, the same ones GWR use in their Turbos)

The GWR TrainFX seems to be far more reliable nowadays, but it used to be quite bad too.

That is correct - TrainFX APIS system on ATW 158s.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I've had my own confirmation email about it today. Conway Valley and the Welsh bit of Bidston - Wrexham are year round. Cambrian Coast and HOWL are winter only: October 1st to March 31st.

Thanks, I thought it was something like that.

 

[Parallel]

The 158 PIS is supposed to cope perfectly well with the Cambrian Coast - as it is with every route on the ATW network. When it's working correctly it copes perfectly well with request stops or recycling the doors or whatever. The problem is it's pretty rare for it to actually work that well. The folks at Machynlleth have been working hard to iron out the problems - they're the experts on 158s after all - but it's still very hit and miss. It's meant to be pre programmed to announce to mind the gap at certain stations, as is the system on 175s, but again it's rather hit and miss. There is an option to manually make it do those announcements (and various others) any time you wish - if you're near enough to the back cab to activate them.

Thanks for the additional info. Just out of interest, what else can the system manually be triggered to announce?

 

[anamyd]

Anyone got any photos of 143625 "The Start of a New Journey" and/or this "red train" (is the bare metal refurb of 150285 finished...?)

 

[bigbadhenry]

Anyone got any photos of 143625 "The Start of a New Journey" and/or this "red train" (is the bare metal refurb of 150285 finished...?)