Southern 313s and 508s

[Aictos]

Well, seeing how SWT or was it Southern refurbished the 455s to such as a high standard, passengers though the 455s were new trains!

Be interesting to see if the same job can be done on the 313s, also what seating layout are they having? 2+3 or 2+2?

 

[Fincra5]

Well, seeing how SWT or was it Southern refurbished the 455s to such as a high standard, passengers though the 455s were new trains!

Be interesting to see if the same job can be done on the 313s, also what seating layout are they having? 2+3 or 2+2?

Like mentioned before, the seats will be taken from the 377/3s so it will be 2+2. Of course they will be refreshed into.... green, im guessing.

The trains will be brand new inside

 

[87015]

Like mentioned before, the seats will be taken from the 377/3s so it will be 2+2. Of course they will be refreshed into.... green, im guessing.

The trains will be brand new inside

They can't be brand new inside if the seats are being taken from 377/3s!

 

[Fincra5]

They can't be brand new inside if the seats are being taken from 377/3s!

well the actual seats are in good condition, so why throw them away? At least it means the 313s/508s wont have the exceptionally uncomfortable High-Density 3+2 seating.

 

[NXEA!]

I went past stewarts lane depot yesterday and i saw an ex overground 313/508 and a few southeastern ones so they must be preparing them there or storing them until brighton can begin work on them. what baffles me is why dont they get put to use on the south london lines instead of converting the 377/3's which already have wifi equipment for fast brighton services and cover the south coast routes in comfort. On the south coast people are going to want a toilet and more comfortable seats then basic low back toiletless 313's which are more ideal for London services as most people only travel a few stops.

 

[MCR247]

But they want the 377/3s in london to form 10 car services, something not possible with 313s/508s

 

[Minstral25]

Its a good idea, and I like it Minstral25 but one problem is, /4s frequentley operate London - Portsmouth & Bognor where trains can be 12 coaches, with 4 going to Portsmouth and the rest to Bognor, so by making some 5 car would be awkward in this case

Yes but not many London Suburban services go to Portsmouth and Bognor and they are mostly 8 coach trains only as well.

I was thinking more of the East Grinstead/ Caterham/ Tattenham/ Sutton/ Epsom trains where the TFL/Mayoral aspiration is to make them regular all day 10 coach using the 377/3's I think.

 

[MCR247]

Yes but not many London Suburban services go to Portsmouth and Bognor and they are mostly 8 coach trains only as well.

I was thinking more of the East Grinstead/ Caterham/ Tattenham/ Sutton/ Epsom trains where the TFL/Mayoral aspiration is to make them regular all day 10 coach using the 377/3's I think.

Yes, but I mean the trains. When I stayed in London, I saw the same 377/4 that I saw on a Tattenham service coupled to a /1 at Horsham waiting for the Southampton portion. I've seen the same with the speed run 377s

 

[Fincra5]

I went past stewarts lane depot yesterday and i saw an ex overground 313/508 and a few southeastern ones so they must be preparing them there or storing them until brighton can begin work on them. what baffles me is why dont they get put to use on the south london lines instead of converting the 377/3's which already have wifi equipment for fast brighton services and cover the south coast routes in comfort. On the south coast people are going to want a toilet and more comfortable seats then basic low back toiletless 313's which are more ideal for London services as most people only travel a few stops.

Most people on the Brighton-Lewes-Seaford, Brighton-West Worthing, Littlehampton-Bognor only go a few stops, which really arent that far apart.

The 313s, as said before, will have the seats from the class 377/3s, so they arent lowbacked. True they will be toilet-less.

 

[paul1609]

Most people on the Brighton-Lewes-Seaford, Brighton-West Worthing, Littlehampton-Bognor only go a few stops, which really arent that far apart.

The 313s, as said before, will have the seats from the class 377/3s, so they arent lowbacked. True they will be toilet-less.

Unless they are going to introduce a new timetable for the West Coastway some Brighton to West Worthing services also work to Portsmouth Harbour in the peak and Littlehampton to Bognor shuttles work to Victoria as the stopping portion of Arun Valley services sounds a bit fanciful to me.

 

[MCR247]

Deleted

 

[northwichcat]

It turns out Southern will be getting all the class 508s from Southeastern.

So this is despite the Merseyside RUS saying the 508s would be going to Merseyrail to reinstate the Wirral Line services that were incorrectly cut back from every 15 minutes to every 30 minutes to send the 508s down south in the first place?

The 507s and 508s are due to be scrapped in 2014, so it wouldn't have been an 'in a few years' type recommendation

 

[Minstral25]

Yes, but I mean the trains. When I stayed in London, I saw the same 377/4 that I saw on a Tattenham service coupled to a /1 at Horsham waiting for the Southampton portion. I've seen the same with the speed run 377s

I don't think Southern can control their units very much. I often see High density suburban 377's on express Brighton services next to a low density unit going to call all stations to Tattenham or similar.

They do seem to make their life complicated by splitting 8/12 car trains in Victoria having arrived in the peak and sending them all over as 4/8 car units, so other units can go to depot without shortening. They really should find a way of doing this better. Clockface services would help and better use of platforms at Victoria so that low density units stay on outer suburban/ express and high density on the local services especially as the high density units are rubbish to sit on for more than 15 minutes.

 

[NSEFAN]

When are the class 313s due to leave the London Overground? Has a date been decided yet?

 

[Aictos]

Well one source of mine from within FCC did say we are most certainly getting 10 321s by December despite another source stating otherwise, however 313s I can't say but my source did say that a great deal of work would have to be done to any LOROL 313s we get as they are in a terrible state.


Still be something to see the end result of the Southern 313s...

 

[fgwrich]

I don't think Southern can control their units very much. I often see High density suburban 377's on express Brighton services next to a low density unit going to call all stations to Tattenham or similar.

They do seem to make their life complicated by splitting 8/12 car trains in Victoria having arrived in the peak and sending them all over as 4/8 car units, so other units can go to depot without shortening. They really should find a way of doing this better. Clockface services would help and better use of platforms at Victoria so that low density units stay on outer suburban/ express and high density on the local services especially as the high density units are rubbish to sit on for more than 15 minutes.

Agreed, i had a 12 Car / 4x3 car units on a brighton fast from brighton in may...not a good ride back from brighton...

But personally i still feel very much that Southern should have seen some sense in the exsisting Gat Ex Stock, and bolsterd or replace that with dedicated Electrostars and use the 442s on the Brighton Fasts with a refreshed interior, ie seats remain the same but recoverd in a more comfortable moquette...inclusion of a lugguage rack in each coach and the keeping of the First Class Compartments and Buffet / Snug coach...

Thus offering a proper express style service...

 

[royaloak]

DaFT only let Southern have the Pigs for the Brighton's in the peaks and Gatwicks during the day, these are the rules.
TOCs cannot unilaterally decide what to do with the stock.
The 377/3s are dedicated to the Brightons as they have wifi fitted, again part of the franchise commitment.

 

[SWT Driver]

If SWT get the 456's that could provide some interesting workings.

 

[royaloak]

2 coaches on a new liner in the evening peak, oh yes can I, can I pretty pretty pleeeeaaaasssseeee .

 

[SWT Driver]

It's nice to the sadistic streak transplant is taking hold just nicely....

 

[royaloak]

Different perspective being at the front

 

[Helvellyn]

Different perspective being at the front

Would be a full width cab in a 456. Very different perspective from a 455.

Just wait until a SWT Guard has to go reset a PassCom in a 456 on the back of a 8-car 455, with no gangway connection. That'll be fun!

 

[clockend]

Maybe LOROL/TfL could pay for an additional one train per hour to be turned at Gordon Hill on the Hertford Loop to give x15mins frequency. That keeps it well and truly within London.

 

[Aictos]

That's all very well but what about passengers north of Gordon Hill? For example, I know full well the demand is there for the hourly off peak service between Hertford North and Stevenage to be increased to a half hourly service especially at weekends.
So far from terminating at Gordon Hill, they should in the short term run to Hertford North and when the Hitchin flyover is finished, run it all the way to Letchworth.

Having three terminators a hour during the off peak is very much possible at Hertford North but it would be made even easier when NR install the same crossovers at both ends of the station like Moorgate has.

Anyway, back to the 313s - I can't wait to see what the new layout will be like, hopefully the end result will be good.

 

[Fincra5]

DaFT only let Southern have the Pigs for the Brighton's in the peaks and Gatwicks during the day, these are the rules.
TOCs cannot unilaterally decide what to do with the stock.
The 377/3s are dedicated to the Brightons as they have wifi fitted, again part of the franchise commitment.

Having said that only about 3 377/3s are even fitted with wi-fi and they are quite often seen on coastway duties, more so than Brighton express.

 

[Fincra5]

Hi, it's been a while since my last update. He is an extract from the Southern Staff newsletter.

"Update on Class 313s

As you may be aware, Southern is planning to introduce Class 313 trains in May 2010 as part of our franchise target to increase capacity on the network. These trains, currently used by London Overground, will be refreshed inside and rebranded in Southern colours (right).

The first trains are due to be initially introduced in May 2010 on the Brighton – Seaford and Brighton – West Worthing routes (running on more routes from December 2010). The intention was for several trains to be completely refreshed for May 2010, however following a detailed tendering process with a number of suppliers in the industry, it has become clear that this deadline will not be possible to achieve. We would prefer to finish the full refresh before introducing the Class 313s, but we also need to ensure that additional capacity is provided as soon as possible, with more seats available for our passengers. After careful consideration, we have decided to use Class 313 trains that have not been through the full refresh to run some services from 23 May 2010 for an interim period. This will allow us to provide additional coaches on our most crowded trains.

Although not fully refreshed, the trains will have a thorough deep clean, new external livery and several reliability modifications. It is just a temporary arrangement and the first fully refreshed trains are expected to be returned from late summer 2010."

 

[A60K]

I note the word 'refreshed' rather than 'refurbished'...

 

[Fincra5]

Well they wont all go into service. Thats why only trains on Brighton-WestWorthing and Brighton-Seaford trains will be replaced, which means the remaining can be refurbished. Then once done they will replace the refreshed ones.

 

[Helvellyn]

Well they wont all go into service. Thats why only trains on Brighton-WestWorthing and Brighton-Seaford trains will be replaced, which means the remaining can be refurbished. Then once done they will replace the refreshed ones.

The extract from the staff article does not mention refurbishment though. It only talks of the units being refreshed. Those that will enter service in May will have a new livery, and will have had a deep clean, but the refreshed units will not enter service until late summer 2010.

Based on the 455 (refurbished) and 456 (refreshed) units, I think refreshed means the existing internal fittings are retained. It'll be new seat squbs and covers, interior panels resprayed and PIS/security cameras fitted. A refurbishment would likely have seen new seating and a host of other modifications.

In BR days a refresh was called a facelift!

 

[Fincra5]

Well i can't be sure, but i believe the ones not inoperation will be refurbished and the seats will come from the class 377/3s.