EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[DarloRich]

Is it wrong to think we should now have a 2nd vote?

I have said since the result that we should accept that decision and get on with things. However that view was based on the naive view the Government had a file in a safe somewhere marked "Brexit plan" but it is clear the government have no control over the process, no plan, no idea how to negotiate and no idea what to do or what will happen on Brexit day. They opened the safe and found a broken kettle, some moldy digestives and a dead mouse. There was no plan. There is no plan.

Should we not ask people to confirm they still want to go ahead considering all of the news that has come out since the referendum? Should we not get a final say on the deal and the implications? That vote should be free of spin, spivs, Cambridge Analytica, big red buses, funny money and foreign interference. Just the facts. This is the deal. These are the implications. Yes or no.

After all if the kippers and gammon are to be believed they will win such a vote easily! Surely no one who did vote to leave ( not me!) voted for this chaos

As an aside it is clearly the plan of Corbyn to sit tight and hope things slide into chaos, try and use Brexit to force a general election, say they would have done things differently and count on the population being so angry or disillusioned that they see him as a realistic alternative. All of you who voted to leave the EU might have that cross to carry also!

 

[fowler9]

Is it wrong to think we should now have a 2nd vote?

I have said since the result that we should accept that decision and get on with things. However that view was based on the naive view the Government had a file in a safe somewhere marked "Brexit plan" but it is clear the government have no control over the process, no plan, no idea how to negotiate and no idea what to do or what will happen on Brexit day. They opened the safe and found a broken kettle, some moldy digestives and a dead mouse. There was no plan. There is no plan.

Should we not ask people to confirm they still want to go ahead considering all of the news that has come out since the referendum? Should we not get a final say on the deal and the implications? That vote should be free of spin, spivs, Cambridge Analytica, big red buses, funny money and foreign interference. Just the facts. This is the deal. These are the implications. Yes or no.

After all if the kippers and gammon are to be believed they will win such a vote easily! Surely no one who did vote to leave ( not me!) voted for this chaos

As an aside it is clearly the plan of Corbyn to sit tight and hope things slide into chaos, try and use Brexit to force a general election, say they would have done things differently and count on the population being so angry or disillusioned that they see him as a realistic alternative. All of you who voted to leave the EU might have that cross to carry also!

To be honest with you based on the people I know who voted leave a large number if not all still would. The ones I work have the recent opinion, and I quote, "we should look after own first", "the Germans don't like us and we don't like them" and even "it's the Pa*is isn't it". They have little to no interest in politics or trade implications, have recently seen Dunkirk and Darkest Hour and think Britain can achieve whatever it wants because we are amazing and they are bored of the news and just want out. Two friends I have are Brexiteers and are most certainly not xenophobic, however, ideologically they want to change the way politics is done in this country and also the way we trade. I have put it to them that that simply isn't going to happen, they haven't changed their minds though.

 

[Giugiaro]

The problem of the Soft Brexit deal isn't the EU as an institution, but each and every country that is part of the EU, each with their individual preferences and dislikes. The Checkers could work with France, but if Italy objects, the deal doesn't pass. Trying to meet all the expectations of remainers and brexiters, expats and immigrants, plus 27 other nations at once, is just b******.

Obviously, striking a deal with the EU is impossible this way!
________________________________________________

About the 2nd vote, it depends on what you want to do with it and which answers should be allowed.
I personally think a 2nd vote should me made since this matter was started from a public vote, and thus should be negotiated by the people as well.

Since the past 2 years have shown the fragilities that the UK have outside of the EU, they also work to demystify both Leave and Remain campaigns from the 1st referendum. I don't even know if campaigning for the 2nd referendum should even be allowed, since the facts have been placed in front of everyone for a lot of time already.

Thus, the second vote not only should allow the people to reflect on the issues that have been risen in the past two years regarding leaving the EU, but also would give guidelines to politicians regarding what they should do after the referendum.

So I would implement the ballot like this:

Should the UK leave the EU with the current deal being negotiated between the two parts?

1. Yes - But NO DEAL
2. Yes - WITH DEAL
3. No - Maintain current relationship
4. No - And work towards more integration

Options 1 and 2 are for Leaving the EU. Options 3 and 4 are for Remaining in the EU.
This is what I would call the 1st level of the referendum. It would definitively decide if the UK should leave the EU.

After analysing the 1rst level of the referendum, the second level should be taken into consideration to know what path should the government take:
Option 1 puts black over white that striking a deal with the EU is futile, and the country should leave and be left to solve everything on its own, regardless of the issues that such option would bring to the UK.
Option 2 would tell to proceed with the deal that as been negotiated with the EU. If such a deal hasn't been made, the UK is then required to continue negotiations for 2 more years, which is possible. This option also eliminates the need for a 3rd EU referendum.
Option 3 would simply cancel the whole situation and it is basically business as usual.
Option 4 is there for the sake of parity, but also to give a say to those who might defend a more influential and integrated UK in the EU, to balance, and counter, the leadership of both France and Germany in the union.

I also defend that the vote should also be analysed per nation, between N. Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England. This also would make it easier to deal with each country's particularities after the 2nd referendum, and apply solutions that work in the best interests of everyone.
Case Study: If both Wales and England vote for a majority "Leave with NO DEAL", and a majority "Remain" for N. Ireland and Scotland, Wales and England could simply leave the UK as an institution, leaving N. Ireland and Scotland still as members of the EU, without having to go through membership application. It's basically a plus+plus that has been discussed already in case of a No Deal Brexit, and it seems to work, even with the Good Friday Agreement.


Now, if it's simply decided to do the same exact ballot as in the first referendum... please stop.


PS: Don't hit me, please...

 

[AlterEgo]

The problem of the Soft Brexit deal isn't the EU as an institution, but each and every country that is part of the EU, each with their individual preferences and dislikes. The Checkers could work with France, but if Italy objects, the deal doesn't pass. Trying to meet all the expectations of remainers and brexiters, expats and immigrants, plus 27 other nations at once, is just b******.

Obviously, striking a deal with the EU is impossible this way!
________________________________________________

About the 2nd vote, it depends on what you want to do with it and which answers should be allowed.
I personally think a 2nd vote should me made since this matter was started from a public vote, and thus should be negotiated by the people as well.

Since the past 2 years have shown the fragilities that the UK have outside of the EU, they also work to demystify both Leave and Remain campaigns from the 1st referendum. I don't even know if campaigning for the 2nd referendum should even be allowed, since the facts have been placed in front of everyone for a lot of time already.

Thus, the second vote not only should allow the people to reflect on the issues that have been risen in the past two years regarding leaving the EU, but also would give guidelines to politicians regarding what they should do after the referendum.

So I would implement the ballot like this:

Should the UK leave the EU with the current deal being negotiated between the two parts?

1. Yes - But NO DEAL
2. Yes - WITH DEAL
3. No - Maintain current relationship
4. No - And work towards more integration

Options 1 and 2 are for Leaving the EU. Options 3 and 4 are for Remaining in the EU.
This is what I would call the 1st level of the referendum. It would definitively decide if the UK should leave the EU.

After analysing the 1rst level of the referendum, the second level should be taken into consideration to know what path should the government take:
Option 1 puts black over white that striking a deal with the EU is futile, and the country should leave and be left to solve everything on its own, regardless of the issues that such option would bring to the UK.
Option 2 would tell to proceed with the deal that as been negotiated with the EU. If such a deal hasn't been made, the UK is then required to continue negotiations for 2 more years, which is possible. This option also eliminates the need for a 3rd EU referendum.
Option 3 would simply cancel the whole situation and it is basically business as usual.
Option 4 is there for the sake of parity, but also to give a say to those who might defend a more influential and integrated UK in the EU, to balance, and counter, the leadership of both France and Germany in the union.

I also defend that the vote should also be analysed per nation, between N. Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England. This also would make it easier to deal with each country's particularities after the 2nd referendum, and apply solutions that work in the best interests of everyone.
Case Study: If both Wales and England vote for a majority "Leave with NO DEAL", and a majority "Remain" for N. Ireland and Scotland, Wales and England could simply leave the UK as an institution, leaving N. Ireland and Scotland still as members of the EU, without having to go through membership application. It's basically a plus+plus that has been discussed already in case of a No Deal Brexit, and it seems to work, even with the Good Friday Agreement.


Now, if it's simply decided to do the same exact ballot as in the first referendum... please stop.


PS: Don't hit me, please...

I'm afraid that this is so poorly conceived it's difficult to know where to start.

1) The question of whether the UK remains in the EU has *already been asked* and definitively decided. Why do you think it hasn't been answered already?
2) You're suggesting that constituent countries can actually vote themselves out of the Union. Have you thought about how such a vote would satisfy the GFA?
3) Have you thought about how a "skeleton" UK featuring potentially only Northern Ireland and Scotland would be utterly meaningless? Have you thought about how unsatisfactory that would be to so many people? Have you thought about the ramifications of all that?

 

[3141]

To be honest with you based on the people I know who voted leave a large number if not all still would. The ones I work have the recent opinion, and I quote, "we should look after own first", "the Germans don't like us and we don't like them" and even "it's the Pa*is isn't it". They have little to no interest in politics or trade implications, have recently seen Dunkirk and Darkest Hour and think Britain can achieve whatever it wants because we are amazing and they are bored of the news and just want out. Two friends I have are Brexiteers and are most certainly not xenophobic, however, ideologically they want to change the way politics is done in this country and also the way we trade. I have put it to them that that simply isn't going to happen, they haven't changed their minds though.

Dead right, unfortunately. For people who voted Leave in 2016 to vote Remain in a second referendum they'd have to admit they were wrong the first time, and no-one wants to do that. I think many people who voted Leave were hoping to "change things" even if they couldn't fully explain what the connection was between the EU and the things they wanted changing. People who refer to the Pakis remind me of my sister-in-law, who used to live near the A20 in SE London and said she'd seen immigrants jumping out of lorries at traffic lights and running off, so she'd voted Leave. When it was pointed out that these would have been illegal immigrants and our leaving the EU wouldn't stop them wanting to come here she walked off in a huff, but I doubt that she now understands she'd got the matter of immigration from the EU confused. Though it would only take a fairly small swing to produce a different referendum outcome we'd still be left with a society seriously divided on the subject, and the Leavers would grumble that they'd been cheated, which is probably what they'll be saying after we've left and things aren't as rosy as they expected - it will be someone else's fault.

 

[3141]

Is it wrong to think we should now have a 2nd vote?

I have said since the result that we should accept that decision and get on with things. However that view was based on the naive view the Government had a file in a safe somewhere marked "Brexit plan" but it is clear the government have no control over the process, no plan, no idea how to negotiate and no idea what to do or what will happen on Brexit day. They opened the safe and found a broken kettle, some moldy digestives and a dead mouse. There was no plan. There is no plan.

Should we not ask people to confirm they still want to go ahead considering all of the news that has come out since the referendum? Should we not get a final say on the deal and the implications? That vote should be free of spin, spivs, Cambridge Analytica, big red buses, funny money and foreign interference. Just the facts. This is the deal. These are the implications. Yes or no.

I'm afraid it was naïve, because the government did not expect the result to be Leave, and therefore had no plans ready for that outcome. They couldn't have even if they'd wanted to, because, as we've seen, the issues are so complex, and in the Conservative party there are such wide-ranging views that no-one could have agreed what the plan should be; nor could they have planned for how the EU would react to it.

I wish we could just ask people if they want to go ahead, but I can't imagine Boris Johnson, the Daily Mail, etc., being able to keep quiet!

By the way, which politician do you have in mind for the role of the dead mouse?

 

[DarloRich]

I'm afraid it was naïve, because the government did not expect the result to be Leave, and therefore had no plans ready for that outcome. They couldn't have even if they'd wanted to, because, as we've seen, the issues are so complex, and in the Conservative party there are such wide-ranging views that no-one could have agreed what the plan should be; nor could they have planned for how the EU would react to it.

I assumed the government planned for things: Nuclear war, pandemic, Zombie invasion etc. I assumed they had a department of thinking sh*t up who dealt with this kind of thing. They didn't. They don't. What else have the no plan for?

 

[3141]

I assumed the government planned for things: Nuclear war, pandemic, Zombie invasion etc. I assumed they had a department of thinking sh*t up who dealt with this kind of thing. They didn't. They don't. What else have the no plan for?

Aren't nuclear war, pandemic and zombie invasion enough for you? But I could suggest a metre rise in the sea level, the sun going nova, or Jeremy Corbyn as PM, if you want something really exciting.

 

[dievoyagerdie]

We've had a 'People's Vote' and the people voted to leave. The middle classes, intelligentsia and establishment didn't get the answer they wanted but sadly you don't get to ask the question again just because it didn't go your way. The government voted overwhelmingly to have the binary vote on our EU membership, the country voted with a margin of well over a million votes to leave, the government voted overwhelmingly to invoke A50 and in GE17 85% of all votes went to parties who at the time promised to deliver brexit. Shall we make it best of 5/6/7? Or just keep going and engineer the vote to go the way the establishment want?

ALDI seem to be confident in brexit Britain and are planning 130 new stores over the next two years.

 

[3141]

ALDI seem to be confident in brexit Britain and are planning 130 new stores over the next two years.

Could be that they see huge business opportunities in a country whose currency has lost value, from which they, being based abroad, can benefit, and that they expect that we'll more and more need to buy food cheaply.

 

[dievoyagerdie]

Could be that they see huge business opportunities in a country whose currency has lost value, from which they, being based abroad, can benefit, and that they expect that we'll more and more need to buy food cheaply.

ALDI and LIDL have been expanding aggressively in the U.K. for years though when the pound was overvalued.

It could be that see an opportunity to grow and have confidence in this country. Somehow Aldi makes their business in the USA and Australia work despite there being no EU there!

Ryanair promised to 'pivot away' from the UK if we dared vote to leave and despite them offering cheap tickets to brits abroad to come home to vote (to remain) we still voted to leave. They've announced a new Southend base and have continued to add aircraft. I suppose we will need to buy plane tickets 'more cheaply' since we will be out of the EU.

Let's not forget, 'flights will be grounded', 'we will need visas to go to the EU', 'we will need to pay to go to the EU' and even if you don't fly you will face '15 mile queues' at Dover and your driving licence 'won't be valid'.

 

[radamfi]

'we will need visas to go to the EU'

I doubt anyone seriously thinks visas will be required for a short visit but are you sure that people working or retiring in the EU in the future will not require a visa?

 

[DarloRich]

Let's not forget, 'flights will be grounded', 'we will need visas to go to the EU', 'we will need to pay to go to the EU' and even if you don't fly you will face '15 mile queues' at Dover and your driving licence 'won't be valid'.

while none of that may happen no one can confirm that it wont. It could very easily occur on day 1 of brexit. That is the problem. The experts have no idea. Many people with little or no grasp of the practicalities are happy to blindly assume everything will be ok. It might be. But we don't know for certain that it will be. Little seems to being done to mitigate the risk.

We also don't have the infrastructure (IT/Physical/Human) to service any new arrangements created by Brexit and little time to put that in place.

We've had a 'People's Vote' and the people voted to leave. The middle classes, intelligentsia and establishment didn't get the answer they wanted but sadly you don't get to ask the question again just because it didn't go your way. The government voted overwhelmingly to have the binary vote on our EU membership, the country voted with a margin of well over a million votes to leave, the government voted overwhelmingly to invoke A50 and in GE17 85% of all votes went to parties who at the time promised to deliver brexit. Shall we make it best of 5/6/7? Or just keep going and engineer the vote to go the way the establishment want?

Does it not seem sensible to put the deal to the same people and ask if they are still sure they want out once the terms and implications have been made clear. As I said above do that without spin, spivs, Cambridge Analytica, big red buses, funny money and foreign interference and see what happens. Surely you would be confident of securing an even better result once all the facts are know. After all we will be taking back control......................

ALDI seem to be confident in brexit Britain and are planning 130 new stores over the next two years.

And how much of their stock do they import? How separate are the continental operations and the UK operations? Perhaps they see a chance to boost profits in an economically damaged post brexit Britain. The car companies who have a much more integrated supply chain seem very worried. Could all be dirty forign lies mind.

 

[Groningen]

About Lidl, Aldi and other supermarkets. You do not Always know what product come from local or across the Sea. Maybe goods from the Mainland should be put on transport 1 day earlier. The amount of borderpatrol officers rises in the Netherlands by 1.000 new jobs. Dutch transport puts 162.000 trucks across the Northsea (or elsewhere) and those have to be check each after the UK leaves the EU.

 

[dievoyagerdie]

I doubt anyone seriously thinks visas will be required for a short visit but are you sure that people working or retiring in the EU in the future will not require a visa?

I sympathise with their predicament however my priority is UK citizens here and 3,000,000 EU nationals who've come here and call the UK home. Those who chose to live and work abroad aren't my priority. The UK have guaranteed and reassured the status of the EU nationals here. This reassurance hasn't been extended by the EU to those UK nationals living in the the EU for reasons known only to them.

----

Aldi recently claimed 3/4 of all its products come from the UK.

 

[dievoyagerdie]

About Lidl, Aldi and other supermarkets. You do not Always know what product come from local or across the Sea. Maybe goods from the Mainland should be put on transport 1 day earlier. The amount of borderpatrol officers rises in the Netherlands by 1.000 new jobs. Dutch transport puts 162.000 trucks across the Northsea (or elsewhere) and those have to be check each after the UK leaves the EU.

We do more trade on WTO than we do with the EU. Every shipment, lorry and container aren't checked. Most are preregistered before they get anywhere near the shore. This nonsense of 15 mile queues and thousands of customs officers checking every lorry with a fine toothed comb is nonsense

 

[dievoyagerdie]

while none of that may happen no one can confirm that it wont. It could very easily occur on day 1 of brexit. That is the problem. The experts have no idea. Many people with little or no grasp of the practicalities are happy to blindly assume everything will be ok. It might be. But we don't know for certain that it will be. Little seems to being done to mitigate the risk.

We also don't have the infrastructure (IT/Physical/Human) to service any new arrangements created by Brexit and little time to put that in place.



Does it not seem sensible to put the deal to the same people and ask if they are still sure they want out once the terms and implications have been made clear. As I said above do that without spin, spivs, Cambridge Analytica, big red buses, funny money and foreign interference and see what happens. Surely you would be confident of securing an even better result once all the facts are know. After all we will be taking back control......................



And how much of their stock do they import? How separate are the continental operations and the UK operations? Perhaps they see a chance to boost profits in an economically damaged post brexit Britain. The car companies who have a much more integrated supply chain seem very worried. Could all be dirty forign lies mind.

No I don't agree sorry. We were asked the question. It was answered. You don't just keep asking it until it gets the answer that the establishment and the middle classes want. If people came together and put as much effort into making brexit a success that they did on trying to overturn the decision then brexit could be great.

Aldi import approximately 1/4 of its items. 3/4 come from the UK.

Car companies have a lot of the onboard electronics made in the Far East. Somehow, despite not being in the EU, they still manage to source products from the other side of the globe but I'm to believe that French tyres are suddenly going to stop coming from a country that we can see on a clear day? Or that I won't be able to by a caravan toilet or a dog basket from ALDI's jumble sale aisle?

 

[radamfi]

the middle classes want

Who are you calling "middle class"? Most people in the UK now work in non-manual occupations. I suspect most people reading your post on this forum probably consider themselves "middle class".

 

[Groningen]

thousands of customs officers checking every lorry with a fine toothed comb is nonsense

It will happen if it becomes a No Deal.

 

[dievoyagerdie]

It will happen if it becomes a No Deal.

We don't do it now to countries we trade with under WTO so I can't see us doing once we do leave and if a deal doesn't happen we will trade under WTO with the EU. WTO prohibits members from treating members differently and that works both ways. If the EU want to make it difficult for us then that's down to them and it's down to them to defend their actions to the WTO.

 

[mmh]

It will happen if it becomes a No Deal.

It will happen if the EU decides to force its members to do it, despite it not needing to happen anywhere else in the world.

 

[mmh]

About Lidl, Aldi and other supermarkets. You do not Always know what product come from local or across the Sea.

We usually do actually. "Produce of the EU" on labelling for the UK market is euphemism for "Not produce of the UK", otherwise you'd state it was British.

 

[dosxuk]

If people came together and put as much effort into making brexit a success that they did on trying to overturn the decision then brexit could be great.

You see it as overturning, I see it as testing to see if the electorate still wants it after taking into account what we're going to be left with. That aside, what can I do to help Brexit become a success? It seems to me that about 20 loud mouth Tory members are doing much more to direct (and scupper any chance of a good deal) the process than any of the "remoaners". Just closing my eyes and chanting "project fear" at any negative consequences doesn't work for me, which I'm guessing is the problem, as that seems to be most of what the beleavers are doing to help.

 

[3141]

ALDI and LIDL have been expanding aggressively in the U.K. for years though when the pound was overvalued.

It could be that see an opportunity to grow and have confidence in this country. Somehow Aldi makes their business in the USA and Australia work despite there being no EU there!

Ryanair promised to 'pivot away' from the UK if we dared vote to leave and despite them offering cheap tickets to brits abroad to come home to vote (to remain) we still voted to leave. They've announced a new Southend base and have continued to add aircraft. I suppose we will need to buy plane tickets 'more cheaply' since we will be out of the EU.

Let's not forget, 'flights will be grounded', 'we will need visas to go to the EU', 'we will need to pay to go to the EU' and even if you don't fly you will face '15 mile queues' at Dover and your driving licence 'won't be valid'.

We probably make too much of predictions about what may happen, in each direction. The real test is what happens in the longer run. We have seen a fall in the value of the £ since the referendum, which does have an effect on our living costs. Maybe it will fall further after next April, maybe it will recover. No-one knows if leaving the EU will be a benefit overall or a disbenefit overall. Some of the predictions about lorry queues and that sort of thing will happen, and others will not. Some problems won't arise next April but they may do eighteen months later. In twelve months' time I'm sure we'll be hearing some people telling us how much better something they are involved with has become since we left. We won't really be able to assess the balance sheet till a few years after we leave, when trends will be clearer, though it's possible some big and perhaps unexpected issue may arise sooner. In the short term I don't expect all the possible problems will materialise, because efforts will have been made to prevent them, but I'm sure something will hit the headlines that no-one expected to crop up.

 

[DarloRich]

No I don't agree sorry. We were asked the question. It was answered. You don't just keep asking it until it gets the answer that the establishment and the middle classes want. If people came together and put as much effort into making brexit a success that they did on trying to overturn the decision then brexit could be great.

Aldi import approximately 1/4 of its items. 3/4 come from the UK.

Car companies have a lot of the onboard electronics made in the Far East. Somehow, despite not being in the EU, they still manage to source products from the other side of the globe but I'm to believe that French tyres are suddenly going to stop coming from a country that we can see on a clear day? Or that I won't be able to by a caravan toilet or a dog basket from ALDI's jumble sale aisle?

Do you accept the position that none of us know what will happen on brexit day 1. Anyone who says they do is a liar. We know what we hope will happen but we do not know what will happen.

As an aside I find this kind of line fatuous in the extreme:

If people came together and put as much effort into making brexit a success that they did on trying to overturn the decision then brexit could be great.

As if people wibbling on the internet or in the pub have any influence on the process! The government have little enough control of the process and the control they do have is actually wielded by the likes of the Tory ERG and the DUP. Perhaps if they supported the government negotiating stance things might be better! We have to be realistic about what we can actually negotiate with. We, despite what the gammony kippers think, is not much. It is clear few of these people have ever tried to negotiate a deal, let alone one this big.

Car companies have a lot of the onboard electronics made in the Far East. Somehow, despite not being in the EU, they still manage to source products from the other side of the globe but I'm to believe that French tyres are suddenly going to stop coming from a country that we can see on a clear day? Or that I won't be able to by a caravan toilet or a dog basket from ALDI's jumble sale aisle?

The car plant in Derby export to the EU about 90% of their production. Seamless trade and a lack of import/export checks are fundamental to that. That is at risk if we don't do a deal or we do a crappy deal. Will sovereignty or taking back control pay mortgages and bills for people laid off from that plant if production is switched to inside the EU? That is the bottom line with the kippery approach: jobs at risk.

It might all be fine. It might not be. What is being done to mitigate those risks? Hoping it will all be OK wont wash.

 

[dievoyagerdie]

You see it as overturning, I see it as testing to see if the electorate still wants it after taking into account what we're going to be left with. That aside, what can I do to help Brexit become a success? It seems to me that about 20 loud mouth Tory members are doing much more to direct (and scupper any chance of a good deal) the process than any of the "remoaners". Just closing my eyes and chanting "project fear" at any negative consequences doesn't work for me, which I'm guessing is the problem, as that seems to be most of what the beleavers are doing to help.

As an individual people can stop calling for a second vote. They can stop calling those who voted Leave 'stupid', 'racist', 'kippers' etc and they can stop claiming that people didn't know what they voted on. The UK voted to leave the EU and the UK will leave the EU - that's a simple fact that people to accept. They can also stop claiming that most people voted for silly reasons like bendy bananas or blue passports. Individuals can also learn to debate and disagree respectfully and have an open mind and accept shouting ‘racist’ to silence someone when they’re proving you wrong has to end. They can also stop encouraging boycotts of openly pro brexit business. I do chuckle when remainers claim to be concerned over businesses and at the same time actively encourage people to damage business just because they dared to have a different opinion.

This is a divided country but it’s not leavers creating that divide. It seems now that bigotry is commonplace, organised and accepted these days just as long as the target is a brexiteer. We often hear that 'diversity is our strength' but that doesn't seem to extend to diversity of opinion.

 

[radamfi]

We often hear that 'diversity is our strength' but that doesn't seem to extend to diversity of opinion.

When you tell people that they may no longer be able to work and retire outside the UK any more, do you expect people just to put up with it and keep quiet?

 

[dievoyagerdie]

When you tell people that they may no longer be able to work and retire outside the UK any more, do you expect people just to put up with it and keep quiet?

That's up to them to contact their MEP and get them to lobby the EU. Remember we are told that the EU is fully democratic and listens to its people and its democratically elected representatives so this should have an affect if people are worried about it. Instead of whinging online, bullying people and intimidating those who voted Leave, they could maybe do something more constructive with their time?

There are 165 countries on this earth that aren't in the EU where people can retire and work in if they meet the criteria. If the EU don't want British people working and retiring there then that's down to the EU. Remember we are leaving but we must respect the EU and its processes. We can't expect to exert better controls on immigration here whilst expecting the EU to let anyone go there to work and retire from the UK.

In all I should expect those working and retiring to be a minority. I have no intention of moving abroad or working abroad. I voted for what I believe is best for the UK, those living here now and those who we'll welcome here in future. If retirees from the USA and SA can retire quite easily to Spain and Portugal then I see no logical way anyone can claim that they may not be able to retire to the EU. If people from outside of the EU can currently work in the EU then I can't imagine much will change.

What I believe is best for the UK is people taking their pension here and spending their pension here and not take it out to a foreign country to spend there but that's just my opinion.

 

[radamfi]

if they meet the criteria.

That's the problem. If you don't meet the criteria, then you miss out. Even if you do meet the criteria, it may become prohibitively expensive because of medical insurance.

 

[mmh]

When you tell people that they may no longer be able to work and retire outside the UK any more, do you expect people just to put up with it and keep quiet?

Why would you tell people that when it's blatantly untrue?