Arriva Rail North DOO

[LowLevel]

As an aside it's become apparent that ARN's plans are for far more than 50% of services to become DOO/DCO over the course of the franchise - that's from the RMT - but journalist Tony Miles on another forum posted that he has obtained the actual quantity which he isn't at liberty to disclose but which is very significantly more than 50% which would appear to back up the RMT's idea of potential figures.

This rather dents the idea touted on here that existing guards should carry on guarding and all will be fine and allow DCO to creep in as desired.

By the end of the franchise there appears to be intent to have hardly any crew operated trains on Northern (the rumour is that the company have said the only lines requiring a safety critical guard in the traditional sense are the Cumbrian Coast and Whitby - I don't know whether that's true or not I must add).

That would tally up with the RSSB's suggestion in their report (The one they attempted to remove from the internet) that low cost solutions such as fold out mirrors should be trialled on existing rolling stock.

 

[northwichcat]

As an aside it's become apparent that ARN's plans are for far more than 50% of services to become DOO/DCO over the course of the franchise - that's from the RMT - but journalist Tony Miles on another forum posted that he has obtained the actual quantity which he isn't at liberty to disclose but which is very significantly more than 50% which would appear to back up the RMT's idea of potential figures.

This rather dents the idea touted on here that existing guards should carry on guarding and all will be fine and allow DCO to creep in as desired.

By the end of the franchise there appears to be intent to have hardly any crew operated trains on Northern (the rumour is that the company have said the only lines requiring a safety critical guard in the traditional sense are the Cumbrian Coast and Whitby - I don't know whether that's true or not I must add).

That would tally up with the RSSB's suggestion in their report (The one they attempted to remove from the internet) that low cost solutions such as fold out mirrors should be trialled on existing rolling stock.

You mean passenger mileage. Also Mr Miles wrote in capital letters it would be DCO NOT DOO and mentioned a franchise commitment for increased revenue protection. He hasn't expanded on how that would work on non-CAF stock or said if it means there would be a change to the rolling stock plan. It's been noted separately Arriva have slowed down their class 150 refurbishments.

 

[Starmill]

You mean passenger mileage. Also Mr Miles wrote in capital letters it would be DCO NOT DOO and mentioned a franchise commitment for increased revenue protection. He hasn't expanded on how that would work on non-CAF stock or said if it means there would be a change to the rolling stock plan. It's been noted separately Arriva have slowed down their class 150 refurbishments.

If we are going to have an in-depth discussion about Mr Miles' views it may be informative for us all to have some actual idea what they are rather than the oblique references to the Other Place.

Quite how any 'plan' for close to universal outright driver control by the end of the franchise is achievable without large-scale modifications to the Sprinter fleets remains rather unclear to me.

The rumour that I have heard is that only a very small number of routes, like the Cumbrian Coast, will need to retain conventional guards in the long term.

Personally I think the fact that we've heard nothing at all from the company is telling. One of my friends asked me why there was a dispute the other day because the Northern website didn't say. They assumed it was over pay and had no idea there was anything more to it than that. Northern's strike section of the website doesn't actually advocate their position whatsoever. It doesn't say what they want out of the dispute. I don't know what that suggests. Either they're pawns or they've gone zombie-like. Or simply that nobody in the organisation has kept the website or their PR up to date.

 

[Starmill]

Yet if Northern have an emergency timetable with 5 return workings there's a chance many Christmas shoppers will time their shopping around those services and the problem will be even worse.

I agree that would be the worst case scenario possible as many of those people would likely be dumped, stranded, with no train and no replacement transport, as I was.

 

[LOL The Irony]

What makes you believe that Northern wish to introduce a model like with an OBS as a necessity so the train can run ?

I haven't heard otherwise.

I'm certainly not going to be making a decision not to go anywhere just because the railway industry can't get its act together and provide the service its paid to provide.

Lots of people don't have that luxury. I certainly don't.

 

[northwichcat]

If we are going to have an in-depth discussion about Mr Miles' views it may be informative for us all to have some actual idea what they are rather than the oblique references to the Other Place.

Quite how any 'plan' for close to universal outright driver control by the end of the franchise is achievable without large-scale modifications to the Sprinter fleets remains rather unclear to me.

The rumour that I have heard is that only a very small number of routes, like the Cumbrian Coast, will need to retain conventional guards in the long term.

Personally I think the fact that we've heard nothing at all from the company is telling. One of my friends asked me why there was a dispute the other day because the Northern website didn't say. They assumed it was over pay and had no idea there was anything more to it than that. Northern's strike section of the website doesn't actually advocate their position whatsoever. It doesn't say what they want out of the dispute. I don't know what that suggests. Either they're pawns or they've gone zombie-like. Or simply that nobody in the organisation has kept the website or their PR up to date.

Other than a claim of a lot more than 50% of passenger mileage and it being DCO not DOO there isn't anything else Mr Miles has said. The post was on the wnxx forum and there's way of viewing posts on that forum unless you are signed up. One of the moderators is a GWR driver and doesn't take kindly to anyone suggesting there's any benefits to DOO which makes it a popular forum with those who got banned from this forum over what they posted in the Southern DOO thread.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

I cannot see any other model working unless of course Northern are going to commit to staffing every station and barriers at every service. Why do you think Southern OBS have to step off at every station, to comply with the Equalities Act and assistance requirements. It's also stated in the franchise agreement I believe that there will be a second member of staff rostered to every service.

 

[CN75]

I cannot see any other model working unless of course Northern are going to commit to staffing every station and barriers at every service. Why do you think Southern OBS have to step off at every station, to comply with the Equalities Act and assistance requirements. It's also stated in the franchise agreement I believe that there will be a second member of staff rostered to every service.

In the plans some of the guards move onto jobs on the stations, check and sell tickets and deal with the accessibility issues by physically being there.

There is only a requirement for a second person in the franchise agreement where there aren’t ticket machines and various other criteria which mean short hop journeys are excluded from the requirement.

Adding it all together, Northern plan to move some of the city based guards to the stations in the city. This would make the network much more attractive to passengers and potentially create a large increase in users as the London Overground network did which is now also run DOO.

 

[yorksrob]

It makes no difference to me whether the additional person is on the train or at the station - except that if they have to be on the train, they're more or less guaranteed to be there wherever the train is, so that would be my preference.

I suspect that the success of the LO services had had more to do with London Transport style frequencies than anything else.

Also, where you move to a system of staffing stations, I suspect that that amounts to a commitment to staffing stations all the time, which I can see potentially being a problem with stations being shut at late times when it's not worth staffing them, rather than the present system of letting passengers through the side gate.

 

[CN75]

It makes no difference to me whether the additional person is on the train or at the station - except that if they have to be on the train, they're more or less guaranteed to be there wherever the train is, so that would be my preference.

I suspect that the success of the LO services had had more to do with London Transport style frequencies than anything else.

The appealing thing for a TOC is that on a station, short term cover for gaps is far easier to arrange. LO started station staffing at all ex-Silverlink stations from the first day by filling staff rosters with agency supplied staff. The guards eventually moved into those jobs. The success of LO is down to many factors - not least, huge investment - but staff at every station all times trains were running is a key commitment and will be maintained if the ticket offices close.

The problem for the RMT with this isn’t just the job guarantee, it is that station staff can’t command the industrial leverage that guards can. The RMT have every reason to fight the ARN plans from an existential perspective.

 

[Carlisle]

I suspect that the success of the LO services had had more to do with London Transport style frequencies than anything else.

Substantial smartening up and first to last train staffing of some stations previously considered no go areas at night and offering a turn up anytime service for wheelchair users will also have been significant factors

 

[yorksrob]

The appealing thing for a TOC is that on a station, short term cover for gaps is far easier to arrange. LO started station staffing at all ex-Silverlink stations from the first day by filling staff rosters with agency supplied staff. The guards eventually moved into those jobs. The success of LO is down to many factors - not least, huge investment - but staff at every station all times trains were running is a key commitment and will be maintained if the ticket offices close.

The problem for the RMT with this isn’t just the job guarantee, it is that station staff can’t command the industrial leverage that guards can. The RMT have every reason to fight the ARN plans from an existential perspective.

I think that with limited resources you have to plump for one or the other. After twenty years of rattling around the Northern network, I find it hard to think of a line where you would justify every station being staffed throughout operating hours. Infact, the the majority of the network lends itself to having the staff on the train than on the station, so why not just make it easy on ourselves and stick with that, then we can all agree and get back to having a functioning train service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Substantial smartening up and first to last train staffing of some stations previously considered no go areas at night and offering a turn up anytime service for wheelchair users will also have been significant factors

I doubt the latter point will be (welcome though it is) as most people are not in wheelchairs.

The former is - regardless of anything else, personal safety will always *feel* better when there is new rolling stock, freshly painted unvandalised stations etc.

 

[scrapy]

Substantial smartening up and first to last train staffing of some stations previously considered no go areas at night and offering a turn up anytime service for wheelchair users will also have been significant factors

Take Greater Manchester for example. Northern have said their plans are to staff Westhoughton, Flowery Field, Blackrod, Irlam, Mills Hill and Bryn for 'part of the day' and staff Northern Connect stations between 06.00 and 22.00. In reality this only means an increase in staffing hours for Heald Green and Horwich Parkway. That means plenty of stations will remain unstaffed and 'part of the day' could just mean morning peak. Hardly on a par with London Overground staffing.

 

[Starmill]

Take Greater Manchester for example. Northern have said their plans are to staff Westhoughton, Flowery Field, Blackrod, Irlam, Mills Hill and Bryn for 'part of the day' and staff Northern Connect stations between 06.00 and 22.00.

To be fair we were told this two and a half years ago and essentially no progress has yet been made.

 

[Killingworth]

Staffing stations for part of the day is a somewhat vague description - and deliberately so. Most Northern stations lost their ticket office decades ago, and a lot have minimal shelter. Dore & Totley station is staffed by two people, one selling tickets, the other watching (presumably there for security as no ticket machine) usually on Monday, Wednesday and Fridays - most weeks from 6.15 to 10.00. That's a long time to be standing out in wind, rain, and snow without a toilet or warm shelter on the station. The days vary slightly and the next station, Dronfield, may get them on Tuesdays and Wednesdays before they go off to places like Meadowhall, Chapeltown, Barnsley and Rotherham for the rest of their day.

For us they're backing up a most unreliable TVM that can't cope with the numbers even when it's working. They may not be there to help passengers onto or off trains, too busy anyway. As rail users most of us would prefer the driver to open and close the doors and for the conductor to collect fares, check tickets and help us with enquiries and any mobility issues - and be there if we get stuck in one of the long tunnels.

However, thanks to the latest announcement of more strikes we're giving up on trains. I'm about to cancel an event on the 27th October which was intended to promote the Hope Valley line for walkers - marking 125 years since the line opened. I've better things to do than having to keep checking to see if there will, or won't be trains. Rail Future's Yorkshire branch meeting is also on the 27th in Sheffield and most would travel to it by Northern trains. When even rail enthusiasts are cancelling events and having to use their cars, what chance have we of getting more non-rail users onto the rails - and keeping the ones we have?

Personally I find this a great shame because I've been encountering significant numbers of first time users of our station in recent months. Some aren't totally new, but they ask simple questions, like how to get to the other platform/s - they were demolished 30 years ago!

 

[Kite159]

Some of the guards aren't doing themselves any flavours, I've used three Northern services today and all 3 had the guards being a rear cab resident, only popping out to do the doors.

Considering one of these services was a fast service from Doncaster to Meadowhall (the other two were single Pacers on stoppers).

 

[LOL The Irony]

I'm about to cancel an event on the 27th October which was intended to promote the Hope Valley line for walkers - marking 125 years since the line opened. I've better things to do than having to keep checking to see if there will, or won't be trains.

That's sad. Now if only a certain group of people who shall remain nameless will realise Northern have someone in the shadows (the DfT) holding a shotgun to their proverbial head. This isn't as black and white as they make it out to be.

 

[yorksrob]

That's sad. Now if only a certain group of people who shall remain nameless will realise Northern have someone in the shadows (the DfT) holding a shotgun to their proverbial head. This isn't as black and white as they make it out to be.

It's very sad. It's not Killingworth's livelihood on the line.

 

[LOL The Irony]

It's very sad. It's not Killingworth's livelihood on the line.

Once again another RMT member who needs a personal invite.
You are going after the wrong people. Go higher up the food chain. The DfT have caused this.

 

[LowLevel]

That's sad. Now if only a certain group of people who shall remain nameless will realise Northern have someone in the shadows (the DfT) holding a shotgun to their proverbial head. This isn't as black and white as they make it out to be.

Arriva took the contract with the DfT knowing exactly what it entails. They deserve no consideration for the state of affairs. They elected to sign up for a franchise knowing they'd be set to war with it's employees. I hope the shotgun misfires and takes both the DfT and Arriva with it.

That's the one thing about being a TOC railway employee on the front line. As we've seen with several companies if they go pop, the staff just wave goodbye (Or give a cheeky salute) and collect a new name badge.

Use your noodle. They aren't allowed to go further up the food chain (though it was gratifying when Minister Grayling got yelled at by an aggrieved train guard when wandering about a railway station a little while ago). I'm intrigued as to what action you suggest the railway's staff can use against the employees/ministers at the DfT whom they have no legal right to negotiate with, short of challenging them a duel.

 

[Carlisle]

The DfT have caused this.

Are you sure? or is it mostly (seemingly unlike countries such as Germany) just a continuation of that age old rather British phenomenon of unions (in professions where they’ve commanded considerable power) and management completely failing to effectively work together with any thought or regard towards the future health & wellbeing of their industry.

 

[DaveB10780]

Just shows a flagrant disregard for the travelling public, just seems a big game to some people. We have had no weekend service for ages and this is despicable.

 

[142Pilot]

Just shows a flagrant disregard for the travelling public, just seems a big game to some people. We have had no weekend service for ages and this is despicable.

A game?

People are losing money hand over fist and you think they are doing it to get their kicks? I've seen guards in tears and nearly come to blows over this.

And it's said that railway staff are detached from reality.....

 

[yorksrob]

Once again another RMT member who needs a personal invite.
You are going after the wrong people. Go higher up the food chain. The DfT have caused this.

As I say, it's all well and good displaying a cavalier attitude towards passengers, however if people such as Killingworth don't decide to come back to the railway, it's the railway staff's jobs that will be on the line.

 

[LOL The Irony]

As I say, it's all well and good displaying a cavalier attitude towards passengers, however if people such as Killingworth don't decide to come back to the railway, it's the railway staff's jobs that will be on the line.

Fair enough but the war should be with the DfT.

 

[Robertj21a]

A game?

People are losing money hand over fist and you think they are doing it to get their kicks? I've seen guards in tears and nearly come to blows over this.

And it's said that railway staff are detached from reality.....

If I let it get to me to that extent I think I'd vote in favour of DOO - or find another job.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Arriva took the contract with the DfT knowing exactly what it entails. They deserve no consideration for the state of affairs. They elected to sign up for a franchise knowing they'd be set to war with it's employees. I hope the shotgun misfires and takes both the DfT and Arriva with it.

Arriva could be replaced by anyone and still have the same issues. If it was Stagecoach, the union would find something to moan about. If it was Abellio, they would pull the foreign government excuse. I could go on all day. The dispute would happen whoever had the franchise and yet you want to blame Arriva. If nobody bid, it would go straight to DOR and still happen.

 

[northwichcat]

A game?

People are losing money hand over fist and you think they are doing it to get their kicks? I've seen guards in tears and nearly come to blows over this.

And it's said that railway staff are detached from reality.....

At present no-one's job is on the line. All guards have been given a guarantee of employment on the same grade with annual pay reviews until at least 2026 - Northern have guaranteed until the end of the franchise and DfT have said the next franchise will give the same guarantee for at least the first 12 months. No-one is forcing the guards to go on strike (well at least I hope there's no bullying of RMT members by other RMT members.) Unfortunately, if the RMT keep this keep they'll be a lot of people's jobs on the lines and not those who work in the rail industry. That is how the RMT is detached from reality - a guarantee of keeping your job for at least eight years is an excellent offer for any employee to get but the RMT seem to think they have a right to a life long job and anyone who thinks otherwise is supporting a 'race to the bottom.'

 

[LowLevel]

Arriva could be replaced by anyone and still have the same issues. If it was Stagecoach, the union would find something to moan about. If it was Abellio, they would pull the foreign government excuse. I could go on all day. The dispute would happen whoever had the franchise and yet you want to blame Arriva. If nobody bid, it would go straight to DOR and still happen.

Arriva and all the rest are as complicit as the DfT. They choose to participate in the process and fill their boots in the meantime. That's like saying a drug dealer's hired thugs are alright because they're just making a living doing what needs to be done.