EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[mmh]

Ah, "statistics" based on a ridiculous scenario where there is no trade. Just like EU members aren't equal when looking at their budget contributions, neither are they when it comes to trade.

I can't be bothered looking it up but I do remember that Germany is a massive net exporter to Britain. Of course it is, look how many German cars and trains we buy.

The EU is far from a union of equal countries and equal citizens, which is a big factor in disillusionment with it.

 

[muddythefish]

The EU is far from a union of equal countries and equal citizens, which is a big factor in disillusionment with it.

So instead of competing with the likes of Germany and France and having a greater say, and maybe playing a dominant role in future, we give up and walk away.

It also has to be said that the (Dis) United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is far from a union of equal countries and regions, and that disillusionment with London ought to be far greater than it is with Brussels.

 

[nidave]

The point I’m trying to make is that one-eighth of the EU’s total budget contribution is not insignificant.

Indeed the fuss over the “divorce bill” would seem to suggest the EU would have some degree of a hole in its finances if we don’t pay it.

So ignoring the fact its going to cost the UK FAR more to leave than stay (despite what was written on the bus) why are we leaving??? ?

the EU will adjust its budget and there will be less money to be distributed in the regional development grants but that will not have a big impact on the functioning of the EU itself. Plus the the waste of space that is Farrage still has to get his pension paid for. Why does he not give that up. He can do his bit for the UK. (somehow I doubt it)

 

[mmh]

So instead of competing with the likes of Germany and France and having a greater say, and maybe playing a dominant role in future, we give up and walk away.

Yes. When you fundamentally disagree with something, you don't stay, you vote with your feet. I disagree with the way the EU's major economies dictate to and, frankly, bully the many minor economies. I don't want us to either prop that system up or silently accept it. Britain has always felt uncomfortable with a supposed trade agreement that turned out to be a lot more than that as soon as we joined it.

It's taken 40 years, but finally we've been given the opportunity to leave.

It also has to be said that the (Dis) United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is far from a union of equal countries and regions, and that disillusionment with London ought to be far greater than it is with Brussels.

Give over. As the UK we're no more divided on regional lines than multiple other EU members. Our regional divisions are our concern. Someone in Slovenia neither understands them nor should be allowed a say on them.

 

[mmh]

So ignoring the fact its going to cost the UK FAR more to leave than stay (despite what was written on the bus) why are we leaving??? ?

A few posts ago you asked someone why it should all be about money, now you're using the same argument?

 

[nidave]

Yes. When you fundamentally disagree with something, you don't stay, you vote with your feet. I disagree with the way the EU's major economies dictate to and, frankly, bully the many minor economies. I don't want us to either prop that system up or silently accept it. Britain has always felt uncomfortable with a supposed trade agreement that turned out to be a lot more than that as soon as we joined it.

It's taken 40 years, but finally we've been given the opportunity to leave.



Give over. As the UK we're no more divided on regional lines than multiple other EU members. Our regional divisions are our concern. Someone in Slovenia neither understands them nor should be allowed a say on them.

How do they dictate considering we have a say in the rules. The EU come to a mutual agreement - so you are saying its all worth paying £2000-£4000 more a year for - instead of giving that money to the NHS, Teachers, more police on the street. You are going to have less money - you are going to have to pay more taxes to cover the cost of this, you are going to have to accept lower environmental laws, fewer worker rights and selling off the NHS to get a trade deal with the USA (and if you think you have a say in this you are going to be very disappointed - the US already are dictating the terms) - you are going to be dictated to at every turn by every one who wants to try and strike a deal as everyone knows we will be so desperate for a deal.

You think all that is worth it. To screw over not just this generation but generations to come just to stick it to the EU over some imagined slight and the fact we follow EU law (which is actually UK law agreed upon and decided upon by the members) Leaving the EU wont get the bins emptied more often than you do now, Leaving wont give the people in the NHS a pay rise, it wont put more police on the streets it will however make everyone poorer and cause untold misery and suffering for millions. But thats ok as long as we leave.

 

[nidave]

A few posts ago you asked someone why it should all be about money, now you're using the same argument?

People keep going on about the amount paid to the EU - like its the worst thing in the world - I am saying its going to be worse when we leave.

I am refuting the arrangement used for leaving the EU - I didn't bring the payment the UK makes to the EU - I am saying its going to cost a lot more to leave

 

[nidave]

Next warns of Brexit port delays and higher prices
Shares rise by more than 8% after strong sales and says it is well-prepared for no-deal exit

Wolfson, a prominent Vote Leave supporter, said the Leicester-based retailer was also preparing for the possibility of a no-deal Brexit, devoting 10 pages in its Stock Exchange update to the topic.

The biggest risk to the business, Wolfson said, was the likelihood of queues and delays at UK and EU ports, while a sharp fall in the value of the pound and increased tariffs also posed a threat. Next has set up new companies in Ireland and Germany as part of its planning.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/25/next-brexit-risks-sales-shares-no-deal

 

[bnm]

So, we have a Tory placeman who is strongly in favour of the UK leaving the EU, but doesn't back the UK when it comes to his company. Setting up new businesses in the EU.

Total hypocrite.

 

[MAV39]

I'm very pleased that you're not running any company that my pension provider may have shares in.

What would you do, sit in the corner and suck your thumb?

 

[muddythefish]

Yes. When you fundamentally disagree with something, you don't stay, you vote with your feet. I disagree with the way the EU's major economies dictate to and, frankly, bully the many minor economies. I don't want us to either prop that system up or silently accept it. Britain has always felt uncomfortable with a supposed trade agreement that turned out to be a lot more than that as soon as we joined it.

Those "minor" economies have benefited enormously from being in the EU - do you see them clamouring to leave ?

Britain's trade agree ment with the EU has brought enormous prosperity to this country over the past 40 years.

Please give me some insight as to how the sunny uplands will look for the next 40.

Give over. As the UK we're no more divided on regional lines than multiple other EU members. Our regional divisions are our concern. Someone in Slovenia neither understands them nor should be allowed a say on them.

What's Slovenia got to do with the gross inequality in the UK (the worst of any developed nation) ?

 

[muddythefish]

Next warns of Brexit port delays and higher prices
Shares rise by more than 8% after strong sales and says it is well-prepared for no-deal exit


https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/25/next-brexit-risks-sales-shares-no-deal

So Brexit supporter Wolfson does his patriotic duty by increasing business out of the UK.

Rather like Seamus Grease-Bogg who's shifted all his company's assets to Ireland.

Don't you just love Brexiters ? Watch what they do - not what they say

 

[EM2]

People keep going on about the amount paid to the EU - like its the worst thing in the world - I am saying its going to be worse when we leave.

If you take the number on the bus as accurate (and we know it's not), the EU contribution costs each of us about 77p a day (about the average price of a can of Coke).
And people are happy to not pay that, in exchange for a future that they have absolutely no idea what it will look like or what damage it will do to the country.
Utter lunacy.

 

[nidave]

Customs delays of 30 minutes will bankrupt one in 10 firms, say bosses

Delays of only half an hour at UK ports and the Irish border would risk one in 10 British firms going bankrupt, according to a report laying bare the severe risk to the economy from no-deal Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-firms?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

[nidave]

If you take the number on the bus as accurate (and we know it's not), the EU contribution costs each of us about 77p a day (about the average price of a can of Coke).
And people are happy to not pay that, in exchange for a future that they have absolutely no idea what it will look like or what damage it will do to the country.
Utter lunacy.

Not only that, they are happy to save the 77p and replace that with £5.50 - £11 a day per person in estimated extra costs on setinng up and running departments that we pool resources on.

If people are happy to pay that then why can we fund the nhs instead with that extra money. Or pay for smaller class sizes, more police. Instead we are setting up and duplicating departments and systems already shared across the eu.

That was never on the side of the bus.

 

[furnessvale]

So Brexit supporter Wolfson does his patriotic duty by increasing business out of the UK.

Rather like Seamus Grease-Bogg who's shifted all his company's assets to Ireland.

Don't you just love Brexiters ? Watch what they do - not what they say

I assume you are referring to Jacob Rees Mogg, although your desire to invent abusive terminology almost completely masks who you mean.

Just to set the record straight, JRM is a 16% partner in a major investment company which has recently set up some minor funds based in Ireland at the request of fundholders. In a similar manner, such companies have funds established at financial centres all over the world. JRM does not make investment decisions within this company.

When fully established, the new fund in Ireland is likely to represent a small single digit percentage of the funds the company manages on behalf of investors.

Still, not's let the truth get in the way of a good anti Brexit rant!

 

[Howardh]

I assume you are referring to Jacob Rees Mogg, although your desire to invent abusive terminology almost completely masks who you mean.

Just to set the record straight, JRM is a 16% partner in a major investment company which has recently set up some minor funds based in Ireland at the request of fundholders. In a similar manner, such companies have funds established at financial centres all over the world. JRM does not make investment decisions within this company.

When fully established, the new fund in Ireland is likely to represent a small single digit percentage of the funds the company manages on behalf of investors.

Still, not's let the truth get in the way of a good anti Brexit rant!

Could you remind us of John Redwood's advice to investors? My memory fades

 

[Groningen]

So Jacob Rees-Mogg has posted a tweet with an image about youth unemployment in the EU. Only the bad doing countries are mentioned and several countries is missing. Oh; what is the UK doing well!

Source: Jacob Rees-Mogg twitteraccount

 

[nidave]

Paywall Alert:
Let American firms run hospitals, urges free trade group

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/let-american-firms-run-hospitals-urges-free-trade-group-5rxxd9tb8

Ministers should allow American healthcare companies to compete with the NHS to run hospitals as part of a free-trade pact after Brexit, a think tank recommends.

The Initiative for Free Trade (IFT) said that Britain should also end its ban on imports of products such as chlorinated chicken and accept American environmental and food safety regulations as equivalent to those in the UK

The moves, it claimed, would help clear the way for a UK-US trade deal....

I thought it was £350 million to go to the NHS - where did I see that plastered... let me think....

 

[Groningen]

Yes; those chickens from the USA with chlorine will taste delicious! The health standards of the USA will take over those of the UK.

Lets remember that Initiative for Free Trade (IFT) is a thinktank founded by Cato Institute, a rightwing libertarian US thinktank founded and funded by fossil fuel magnates and major political donors the Koch family. > Source: Guardian > https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...hs?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true

 

[furnessvale]

Could you remind us of John Redwood's advice to investors? My memory fades

Indeed it does. You seem to have completely forgotten what my posting was replying to.

 

[EM2]

From the BBC:

Jeremy Corbyn says if the prime minister can deliver a deal that includes a customs union and no hard border in Ireland, which protect jobs, people’s rights at work and environmental and consumer standards - then the Labour Party will support "that sensible deal".

He warns Theresa May that if she can't negotiate a good deal, she should "make way for a party that

From Robert Peston via Twitter:

The olive branch @jeremycorbyn has extended to @theresa_may could save or destroy her. Just to be clear, his offer is what some in her cabinet, and many on her benches, in Whitehall, in Brussels and in EU capitals have been mooting as a Brexit compromise that would solve both......the Northern Ireland backstop and the future relationship. It would see the EU concede a circumscribed common rulebook for goods while she sacrificed the right to do third-party trade deals. Many of her Remainy MPs would buy that. And with Labour’s support that deal would...obtain parliamentary approval. But perhaps 100 of her Brexiter MPs would never vote for it. They might even quit the Tory Party rather than be associated with it. So Corbyn has set May up to choose between a negotiated Brexit and splitting her party. Which sets up......next week’s Tory conference as perhaps the most important of the modern era. Because it may determine both what kind of Brexit she can negotiate and whether the Tory party can survive any kind of negotiated Brexit.

 

[Kite159]

From the BBC:

From Robert Peston via Twitter:

Corbyn will vote against any deal, even if it is the best possible "have cake and eat it" deal, as it's in his nature to vote against the Tories. The country is f****d anyhow.

(Heck if Mrs May stood up in parliament with a picture of a dog and said "this is a picture of a dog", Mr Corbyn is hard-wired to disagree and will claim it's a cat)

 

[Clip]

Corbyn will vote against any deal, even if it is the best possible "have cake and eat it" deal, as it's in his nature to vote against the Tories. The country is f****d anyhow.

Its in his nature to leave Europe also which you seem to forget, so maybe he will vote with her for a good deal to get his way

 

[Howardh]

Indeed it does. You seem to have completely forgotten what my posting was replying to.

Ah, yes, I've remembered now. Something along the lines of "dont' invest in/take your money out of the country", such positive faith on Brexit from one of their own.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/13/labour-accuses-john-redwood-of-talking-britain-down

Labour has criticised the arch-Eurosceptic MP John Redwood for “talking down Britain” after he recently wrote a column of financial advice in which he recommended investors “look further afield” because of the state of the UK economy.

A Brexiter can't be wrong...surely??

 

[Howardh]

(Heck if Mrs May stood up in parliament with a picture of a dog and said "this is a picture of a dog", Mr Corbyn is hard-wired to disagree and will claim it's a cat)

She needn't look across the house for that, just a glance to her side would do.

 

[Kite159]

She needn't look across the house for that, just a glance to her side would do.

True that.

 

[3141]

I haven't yet understood what Corbyn's "offer" is. I suspect he's hoping to widen the split within the Tory Party in order to make an election more likely. I don't think we need the diversion of an election while we're trying to resolve the matter of our future relationship with the EU, and it's very unclear what sort of deal Corbyn could achieve if he was in charge.

Some people have questioned whether the Labour Party under Corbyn could win an election. I think it very likely would win. Younger people generally, a majority of whom voted to Remain, will see the LP as offering new hope. They'll take a chance, just as Brexiteers did when voting to leave. Labour will have a programme. The Tories won't have much of one - they haven't had the time to put one together - and repeating last year's idea of expanding grammar schools won't get them very far.

If the Tory Party conference shows little support for Theresa May's Brexit plans, would she be able to carry on with a different set of proposals, or would she be replaced by someone else? Think of the possible candidates.... There's no-one who much inspires me, and there's probably no-one who much inspires many Tories either, and though Johnson may well win among party members he could provoke yet further division. His performance as Foreign Secretary did not suggest he'd excel in the much more difficult role that a Prime Minister needs to fulfil at the present time. They'll be thinking hard about whether they can better avoid a General Election by keeping the same leader or choosing a new one. Another diversion from the job in hand.

I feel really pessimistic about all this. A friend of mine, slightly younger than me (only in his mid-seventies) recently commented that the last years of his life contained Brexit and Trump. He wasn't happy either.

 

[bramling]

I haven't yet understood what Corbyn's "offer" is. I suspect he's hoping to widen the split within the Tory Party in order to make an election more likely. I don't think we need the diversion of an election while we're trying to resolve the matter of our future relationship with the EU, and it's very unclear what sort of deal Corbyn could achieve if he was in charge.

Some people have questioned whether the Labour Party under Corbyn could win an election. I think it very likely would win. Younger people generally, a majority of whom voted to Remain, will see the LP as offering new hope. They'll take a chance, just as Brexiteers did when voting to leave. Labour will have a programme. The Tories won't have much of one - they haven't had the time to put one together - and repeating last year's idea of expanding grammar schools won't get them very far.

If the Tory Party conference shows little support for Theresa May's Brexit plans, would she be able to carry on with a different set of proposals, or would she be replaced by someone else? Think of the possible candidates.... There's no-one who much inspires me, and there's probably no-one who much inspires many Tories either, and though Johnson may well win among party members he could provoke yet further division. His performance as Foreign Secretary did not suggest he'd excel in the much more difficult role that a Prime Minister needs to fulfil at the present time. They'll be thinking hard about whether they can better avoid a General Election by keeping the same leader or choosing a new one. Another diversion from the job in hand.

I feel really pessimistic about all this. A friend of mine, slightly younger than me (only in his mid-seventies) recently commented that the last years of his life contained Brexit and Trump. He wasn't happy either.

I don't think an election is a solution at all.

The last thing we need is a (second) messy election with normal voting lines blurred by the Brexit issue. That's why we had a referendum in the first place!

I suspect the two likely scenarios are another "nomansland" result like the last one, or a very small Corbyn win, which I think in the long-term would be very damaging for the country, quite apart from being probably more of a mess than the current May government.

I don't actually think Corbyn would necessarily win - despite May's unpopularity a *lot* of people would think twice about voting Labour, in many cases as late as during those few moments in the secrecy of the polling booth, and consider whether they *really* want to take the risk. Better the devil you know and all that.

Plus, Corbyn could lose a *lot* of ground *very* quickly if it becomes household chatter that he's using the Brexit issue as a means of getting into power through the backdoor.

 

[dosxuk]

If we had virtually any other voting system but FPTP, both parties would have imploded by now over the Brexit divide. Neither are trusted, popular or desirable, which bizarrely increases their vote share because people are more worried about the other lot getting in. I wonder how many of the people who voted for Labour in the last GE did it because they wanted Corbyn in charge compared to those just not wanting May in charge.