EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Ianno87]

The EU has to make it hard for the UK, if we were given everything on a plate then a number of other sceptical countries would want to follow us. My view is just let’s walk away from them. If they put 20% on British goods and services we should do the same to their goods. So we will not be able to fly into the EU, then EU will not be allowed to fly into our airspace. UP YOURS EUROPE get off our backs, roll-on March 2019

Hate to break it to you, but it's the UK that's been on the EU's back for the last 40-odd years. The EU owe us nothing, quite frankly, and have been very accommodating of our general petulance and sense of self-superiority as a country. Now we're unceremoniously throwing it back in their faces.

 

[birchesgreen]

No the EU owe us a lot, a large amount of EU regulations over the years have been written by the UK and then "imposed" (apparently) on us by Brussels

Though as we are part of the EU we imposed these regulations (which we wrote) on ourselves.

 

[nlogax]

It's new territory for the EU, it's managed to keep its bullying of members relatively unreported until now. This is far bigger, which is why it's being equally incompetent at it as we are at getting away from it.

Where is this 'equal incompetence'? The EU 27 has mostly had its ducks in a row since the beginning of this farce. United in approach and stance, and determined to maintain the integrity of the EU's four freedoms.

The UK on the other hand..

 

[fowler9]

The EU has to make it hard for the UK, if we were given everything on a plate then a number of other sceptical countries would want to follow us. My view is just let’s walk away from them. If they put 20% on British goods and services we should do the same to their goods. So we will not be able to fly into the EU, then EU will not be allowed to fly into our airspace. UP YOURS EUROPE get off our backs, roll-on March 2019

Not sure it is that simple, if we want to change overflying rules (or are forced to) it would make any long haul flights going from the U K to anywhere apart from North America a pain. Also airlines from North America to Northern EU destinations would have to take a longer route.

 

[mmh]

Where is this 'equal incompetence'? The EU 27 has mostly had its ducks in a row since the beginning of this farce. United in approach and stance, and determined to maintain the integrity of the EU's four freedoms.

The UK on the other hand..

Good lord, the EU members are "united in approach and stance." Really? "Determined to maintain integrity of..." (unwaivable principles which are waived when it's convenient to)

Sounds like a Yes Minister episode to me. "Europe is a community of nations dedicated to one goal!"

Decades later, still as relevant as ever.

 

[mmh]

Even Michael O'Leary has admitted his no flights from Britain claim was nonsense, but please folks carry it on, it'll make for an "entertaining" six months at least!

 

[nidave]

May's plan to give Stormont a backstop veto enrages EU envoys
UK insists on Northern Ireland assembly vote before Brexit border measures can come in.

EU diplomats have accused Theresa May of trying to delay resolution of the Irish border problem until after Brexit day by insisting upon Stormont having a final veto before any “backstop” solution can come into force.
Senior diplomats involved in the negotiations have reacted furiously to the details of a fresh UK proposal for avoiding a hard border on the island of Ireland, briefed to the Irish PM, Leo Varadkar, at last week’s Salzburg summit.
Under the solution, May will agree to Northern Ireland potentially staying, in effect, in the single market, as the rest of the UK exits after the transition period, should there be no other way to avoid a hard border at the time.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ve-stormont-a-backstop-veto-enrages-eu-envoys

Considering they cant actually form a government in N. Ireland this is one of the stupidest ideas in an ocean of stupid ideas. The two main parties will never agree to anything (they never do) - if one side said it was Monday, the other would argue its Wednesday just because.

I have said this many many times but N. Ireland government should be doing everything it can to get as much out of this shower of **** as it can -If it got a special deal it could end up with billions of investment for companies who want an EU and UK base in one. It could compete with so many other EU countries and have the benefit of having access to the UK market as well from one spot. But NOOOOOO the MLA's cant agree on anything other than its the other ones fault. People who are not from N. Ireland dont know how sick most of us are of them. (I know I dont live there anymore but I do have lots of friends and family and its where I was born)

 

[nlogax]

Good lord, the EU members are "united in approach and stance." Really? "Determined to maintain integrity of..." (unwaivable principles which are waived when it's convenient to)

Daft and trite response. When it comes to defending the integrity of the four freedoms the EU knows exactly what it wants. Six months from leaving, the UK continues to dither and make half-arsed half-suggestions to this very day. Scoff all you like but leavers are no nearer defining even the vaguest common vision of what you / they want. The only thing they have in common is wanting out of the EU.

Now reality is about to set in. Where's the plan? What's the goal? It's been over two years since the referendum result. Can't leavers agree on anything beyond 'up yours Brussels'?

 

[nidave]

Even Michael O'Leary has admitted his no flights from Britain claim was nonsense, but please folks carry it on, it'll make for an "entertaining" six months at least!

Apart from the fact it was in the governments no deal papers - so Either Michael O'Leary is wrong or the government is wrong in its notices.

No-deal Brexit could hit UK-EU flights, says Whitehall
Papers also show pets would need rabies tests and motorists an insurance green card

Flights could cease between the UK and the rest of the EU if Britain crashes out of the bloc without a deal, the government has said.

In its latest set of “no deal” notices, the government said flights could be disrupted because the EU-issued aviation licences would not be valid and airlines would have to seek individual permissions to operate with respective states.

“If the UK leaves the EU in March 2019 with no agreement in place, UK and EU licensed airlines would lose the automatic right to operate air services between the UK and the EU without seeking advance permission,” said the government.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/24/uk-eu-flights-would-cease-immediately-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit

 

[muddythefish]

I really find this whole notion of using Brexit as a bash at the Conservatives daft.

.

Why ?

Europe has divided the Tories for decades. Cameron tried to sort it out by giving in to his right wing (unlike Major), and called the referendum, thereby asking the entire nation to resolve what was essentially a party problem (and a minor right wing core of the party to boot).

The Brexit farce is owned entirely by the Tories.

 

[nidave]

To be fair to bramling, the Labour leadership are being just as pig headed. Corbyn wants out of the EU so badly it hurts and is even willing to upset Momentum over it. (look at the fudge over the request by the party members to have a 2nd referendum) Which should make things interesting if they loose faith if him - they are the ones basically running the party now.

This was caused by the Conservatives but its showing a lot of politicians true colors.

 

[nlogax]

This was caused by the Conservatives but its showing a lot of politicians true colors.

True, it's a political free-for-all. While the Conservatives are busy messing this up now I've zero doubt that things wouldn't be any better under a Labour government.

 

[bramling]

Why ?

Europe has divided the Tories for decades. Cameron tried to sort it out by giving in to his right wing (unlike Major), and called the referendum, thereby asking the entire nation to resolve what was essentially a party problem (and a minor right wing core of the party to boot).

The Brexit farce is owned entirely by the Tories.

The fact that 52% of people voted leave shows it isn’t just a Conservative party issue.

It’s convenient for some to label it as a party issue as a means of closing off addressing the issue. The fact that you say Major and the political system chose not to address the subject may well have been a factor in the eventual rise of UKIP - they certainly weren’t part of the Conservative party, indeed it now appears their vote base came just as much from Labour.

Like it or not, UKIP rose because people were *voting* for them in comparatively large numbers. We got the referendum because eventually public opinion became sufficiently strong for it to finally engage a major party into a response.

Do we honestly think Cameron took the chance of a referendum just to appease a few right wingers? The referendum went in the manifesto because he was worried about UKIP splitting his vote and thus giving the opportunity for something like a Labour / SNP coalition. The unexpectedly good election result perhaps shows this strategy paid off, for all we know that commitment may have appealed to enough people to have swung the result.

I respect Cameron for having the guts to hold the referendum. I completely disrespect him for taking it for granted the result would swing his way and then going off in a sulk when it didn’t.

 

[bramling]

True, it's a political free-for-all. While the Conservatives are busy messing this up now I've zero doubt that things wouldn't be any better under a Labour government.

I think Corbyn is actually losing ground over this. I sense people are seeing Labour use this as a means of trying to slip into power. Bearing in mind Corbyn’s age this could well be his *only* realistic opportunity.

Labour are coming across as very muddled - it’s okay in opposition to bash the government but this isn’t enough to propel them to power, they actually need to explain to the country what they would do. We’re not seeing much of that.

No one really knows what Labour’s position actually is. They’re just as split, in some ways more fundamentally. Corbyn could actually face a big problem - the referendum result (and apparently his own position on the issue) versus some of the London-centric party membership.

Meanwhile, some of the few half-baked “policy” concepts that Labour are floating at their conference look pretty scary. I can’t see middle England taking the risk.

 

[nidave]

I think Corbyn is actually losing ground over this. I sense people are seeing Labour use this as a means of trying to slip into power. Bearing in mind Corbyn’s age this could well be his *only* realistic opportunity.

Labour are coming across as very muddled - it’s okay in opposition to bash the government but this isn’t enough to propel them to power, they actually need to explain to the country what they would do. We’re not seeing much of that.

No one really knows what Labour’s position actually is. They’re just as split, in some ways more fundamentally. Corbyn could actually face a big problem - the referendum result (and apparently his own position on the issue) versus some of the London-centric party membership.

Meanwhile, some of the few half-baked “policy” concepts that Labour are floating at their conference look pretty scary. I can’t see middle England taking the risk.

I agree with you on this - Corbyn is so desperate to enforce his vision - Labour should be smashing it in the polls. They cant agree on anything (same as the conservatives) when it comes to the EU as there is a danger of upsetting someone who does not agree. This is where extremes of both sides are not a good thing - we were heading towards a middle ground at one point mostly and people saw the need to compromise on things. Now its accept my hard left/hard right view and no one can offer any other opinions.

This means we, i think, are going (to try and bring this back on topic) to crash out of the EU and the rich will get richer and the rest of us will be a lot worse off.

 

[bramling]

I agree with you on this - Corbyn is so desperate to enforce his vision - Labour should be smashing it in the polls. They cant agree on anything (same as the conservatives) when it comes to the EU as there is a danger of upsetting someone who does not agree. This is where extremes of both sides are not a good thing - we were heading towards a middle ground at one point mostly and people saw the need to compromise on things. Now its accept my hard left/hard right view and no one can offer any other opinions.

This means we, i think, are going (to try and bring this back on topic) to crash out of the EU and the rich will get richer and the rest of us will be a lot worse off.

I think this is a lot of the issue - Corbyn doesn’t want to say much as he doesn’t want to risk upsetting anyone and risking a rift which might damage what he sees since the last election as a chance of electability.

In the last day or so there has been some talk of a “Canada” model. Whilst this doesn’t readily break the deadlock over the NI border, it does seem to be an acceptable compromise in that it would (presumably) be agreeable to the EU, and certainly seems to be acceptable to most of the leave side, and doesn’t (as far as I understand) require agreement to free movement and living under the jurasdiction of the ECJ. That or no deal?

 

[dosxuk]

ECJ would still be involved and in a Canada-style deal - they are the body of the EU that deal with a legal issues / elements. If you have any sort of agreement with the EU, the ECJ will be involved and have some say in that agreement - another one of the reasons May's red lines get laughed at.

Of course, the main person who doesn't like the idea of a Canada style agreement is Mrs May herself, which kind of puts the brakes on that idea going anywhere.

Interestingly, all mention of the ECHR seems to have gone quiet. Especially when you consider that the main thing about the European courts that seems to get the general public annoyed is when some judge says we can't deport someone - but this is a ECHR thing, which isn't an EU body and we aren't (currently) leaving, not an ECJ issue.

 

[AlterEgo]

The EU has to make it hard for the UK, if we were given everything on a plate then a number of other sceptical countries would want to follow us. My view is just let’s walk away from them. If they put 20% on British goods and services we should do the same to their goods. So we will not be able to fly into the EU, then EU will not be allowed to fly into our airspace. UP YOURS EUROPE get off our backs, roll-on March 2019

This is the sort of flawed logic a child would use.

 

[AlterEgo]

And that's quite correct. The only choice is which party do you want to be in power when we leave.

The choice between Labour or Conservative is enough to make you weep.

 

[Senex]

Hate to break it to you, but it's the UK that's been on the EU's back for the last 40-odd years. The EU owe us nothing, quite frankly, and have been very accommodating of our general petulance and sense of self-superiority as a country. Now we're unceremoniously throwing it back in their faces.

Well put! What will it take to bring home to some sections of the Tory party that we are just one rather ordinary state amongst many and that any lingering ideas of imperial grandeur (and power) really ceased to have any relevance a long time ago?

 

[EM2]

If you want an idea of what just a tiny fraction of 'No Deal' will look like, have a read through this Twitter thread, about fruit:
https://mobile.twitter.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1044323498754215941

I zoomed in on your photo, and couldn't see clearly - but - at this time of year, almost certainly, those lemons are imported from South Africa. They come in on a 0% tariff under the entry price system.
And here's some lemons and limes from Sainsbury's. Again the lemons are coming in on a 0% tariff because we have an FTA with South Africa. The limes are from Mexico. They also come in on a 0% tariff, because we have an FTA with Mexico.

The thread continues for some length!

 

[Howardh]

If you want an idea of what just a tiny fraction of 'No Deal' will look like, have a read through this Twitter thread, about fruit:
https://mobile.twitter.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1044323498754215941

The thread continues for some length!

BREXIT; we can't make our own free trade deals with the rest of the world as we're in the EU and need to get out
REALITY; we already have free trade deals with anyone we want, just look at those juicy limes from Mexico. (So it's fantastic being in the EU and having all these deals in place).
Brexit Logic strikes again.
Of course after Brexit those FT deals have gone (been voted away by the referendum, well done) so prices in the shops will go up or the products won't be there, and we'll have to eat straight blue bananas grown in Yorkshire instead. Good job they have the climate and the soils. Just hope there are some Brexit voters available to pick and pack them.

 

[nidave]

The choice between Labour or Conservative is enough to make you weep.

Could not agree more. But the ones waiting in the wings are much worse.

Borris or Mogg. <shudder> or... Well I can't think of any labour ones they seem to scared of momentum and their cult like worship of corbyn.

 

[bramling]

Hate to break it to you, but it's the UK that's been on the EU's back for the last 40-odd years. The EU owe us nothing, quite frankly, and have been very accommodating of our general petulance and sense of self-superiority as a country. Now we're unceremoniously throwing it back in their faces.

This view does of course overlook the fact that Britain has been a pretty healthy contributor to EU funds over the years.

 

[nidave]

This view does of course overlook the fact that Britain has been a pretty healthy contributor to EU funds over the years.

But what does it get back - considering there are now thousands more civil servants who are being hired and will 10's of thousands more will need to be hired which were not needed.
Plus the government has to pay for setting up a local version of what was EU wide departments and shared systems / resources - how many billions are needed for these - like the billions which will need to be spent on a upgrading the new customs systems. Its not as black and white as you are making out. Pooling resources which then have to be set up by the UK government is going to cost the country 10's of billions then there is the ongoing running costs which were shared between the EU countries. Now we have to pay for it all ourselves.

the estimate is £2000-£4000 more needed per person per year. So yea - tell me again how we have gotten nothing from the EU other than spending (approx) £110 per person per year that we currently spend.

 

[nidave]

Fears of no-deal Brexit push British export orders close to year low
Economists warn overseas buyers moving away from UK suppliers due to uncertainty

Britain’s manufacturers have warned of the mounting risk of a no-deal Brexit as export orders dropped to the lowest level in almost a year.

The CBI industrial trends survey, which gauges manufacturing activity across the UK, revealed slowing economic output for the three months to September, with company export orders the lowest since October 2017.

Anna Leach, head of economic intelligence at the CBI, said that factory order books remained strong and output was still growing, but that “Brexit uncertainty continues to cloud the outlook”.

“Heightened fears of a ‘no-deal’ Brexit scenario have prompted some firms to move publicly from contingency planning to action,” she said.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-push-british-export-orders-close-to-year-low

 

[Groningen]

It is nice to see Boris Johnson about the Labour Party, but he should really write about his own Conservative Party. Not forbidden of course, but first clean up his own mess.

 

[PHILIPE]

True, it's a political free-for-all. While the Conservatives are busy messing this up now I've zero doubt that things wouldn't be any better under a Labour government.

The Conservatives are being accused of messing it up but this is because of having to keep changing sticks. This is the result of the EU demanding rather than negotiating and not helped by Remainers, including some in Mrs May's own party, who won't accept the result of the Referendum and putting as many obstacles as they can in the way to try and overturn the result. The campaign for a people's referendum is merely another way of trying to stop Brexit but none of those campaigning will actually admit it. Kier Starmer's words seem to be designed to force another General Election.
All this might well have been avoided if there had been a referendum 30 + years ago at the first hint of the Common Market turning into a political union.
I want rid of the present Government as many many more do but unfortunately there is no electable alternative at the moment.

 

[Groningen]

There is word in the Netherlands to have maybe elections in November (or is it just a rumour)?

 

[nidave]

The Conservatives are being accused of messing it up but this is because of having to keep changing sticks. This is the result of the EU demanding rather than negotiating and not helped by Remainers, including some in Mrs May's own party, who won't accept the result of the Referendum and putting as many obstacles as they can in the way to try and overturn the result. The campaign for a people's referendum is merely another way of trying to stop Brexit but none of those campaigning will actually admit it. Kier Starmer's words seem to be designed to force another General Election.
All this might well have been avoided if there had been a referendum 30 + years ago at the first hint of the Common Market turning into a political union.
I want rid of the present Government as many many more do but unfortunately there is no electable alternative at the moment.

The EU is not demanding anything - they are sticking to the same thing they have said since day 1 - the UK wants to leave - the EU has its 4 Freedoms - these are well known to the UK government - we even agreed to them. The UK is demanding a fundamental change to these for its own benefit - which fair play to the UK god loves a tryer - the EU is demanding nothing - its all the UK side - the EU is saying "You cant do anything that will disrupt the 4 fundamental rights"

UK: We want to leave the EU and we want A, B,C & D
EU: We dont want you to leave, you can but you cant have A, B,C & D as that will disrupt the 4 fundamental rights of the EU
UK: We want to leave the EU and we want E, A,D & F
EU: We dont want you to leave, you can but you cant have E, A,D & F as that will disrupt the 4 fundamental rights of the EU
UK: We want to leave the EU and we want G, 4, ] & D
EU: We dont want you to leave, you can but you cant have G, 4, ] & D as that will disrupt the 4 fundamental rights of the EU
UK: You need to respect us and do what we want on our terms

The EU has not really changed it position since day one - so how can it be the one making the demands of the UK when the UK is behaving like a petulant child.