Caledonian Sleeper remerger with ScotRail? Rumours abound.

[ForTheLoveOf]

I think they're right to be targeting tourists (as you say not many people are using it for commuting even though they do exist) I'm just not sure that their pricing is going to actually work. Even booking a year in advance, on the Highland, they want £170 for a two people sharing (£185 if you want a room to yourself) for London to Fort William in the middle of September! Hardly the height of the season!

If you look at the Lowland, where the new stock will soon be introduced, the pricing is, to my mind, utterly barmy. Sticking with mid-September 2019 (so as far in advance as it's possible to book) for a solo traveller a 'Classic' (basically traditional berth) is £155, a 'Club' (single berth but with en-suite) is £230 and a 'Caledonian Double' (the berth with a double bed and en-suite) is £335. Travelling in a pair and it'll be £190, £280 and £400 for each of the three types of 'room'. I mean you could get an evening train from London arriving into Edinburgh around 2300 and then check in to a hotel and probably still be quids in!

Maybe it'll work and they'll fill the trains with people forking out over £200 but personally I'm doubtful. Perhaps I'm just too price sensitive and there is a large market of people out there who would be happy to pay that much! But unless they can really work the 'experience' angle I have grave doubts about this pricing strategy. And at those prices I'd say not only are they going after tourists but they're focusing on a small segment of the tourist market. That which has a lot of money to burn.

Let's hope the pricing backfires and they realise they need to lower their prices!

 

[Statto]

Been looking at the sleeper, your penalised for traveling single, single Euston-Fort William £185 advance, Twin Euston-Fort William £170 advance, £85 each, no twin option if your traveling single, this is for April next year, not high summer.

 

[Starmill]

If Serco are meeting franchise requirements and not losing money, they'll be unlikely to give up the franchise early

It is a very long way from clear that either of these things are true.

 

[deltic]

Let's hope the pricing backfires and they realise they need to lower their prices!

If their pricing fails then they are bust - reducing prices won’t give them the revenue they need to operate profitably

 

[30907]

The starting prices seem significantly higher than Nightjet in low season, but I'm not sure thats so true for their high season ones. Pricing singles so high is odd though - but could be a deliberate strategy.

 

[talltim]

I’ve never seen why the Scottish sleepers should be linked with Scotrail. Yes, they run in Scotland, but they also go to London so why shouldn’t TfL run them?
Merging them with the SW sleepers would make far more sense

 

[paul1609]

When you consider that an off peak return from London to Fort William is over £170, I can't help but feel that some people on here have unrealistic expectations of what the fares (or costs) of a low density specialist used 6 times a week sleeper train would be.

 

[Christmas]

When you consider that an off peak return from London to Fort William is over £170, I can't help but feel that some people on here have unrealistic expectations of what the fares (or costs) of a low density specialist used 6 times a week sleeper train would be.

In the past, that is before advance fares, ticket prices compared favourably with the daytime fares. The new stock fares want to charge you up to £75 more just for the privilage of en suit.
I do rather like the idea of a national sleeper operator though, perhaps introducihg new routes.

 

[adrock1976]

In the past, that is before advance fares, ticket prices compared favourably with the daytime fares. The new stock fares want to charge you up to £75 more just for the privilage of en suit.
I do rather like the idea of a national sleeper operator though, perhaps introducihg new routes.

Back in the days of British Rail, I believe it was called InterCity Sleeper (or something close to that).

 

[deltic]

In the past, that is before advance fares, ticket prices compared favourably with the daytime fares. The new stock fares want to charge you up to £75 more just for the privilage of en suit.
I do rather like the idea of a national sleeper operator though, perhaps introducihg new routes.

That would require huge subsidies - sleepers are an anachronism and it’s no surprise they are being withdrawn across Europe

 

[Esker-pades]

That would require huge subsidies - sleepers are an anachronism and it’s no surprise they are being withdrawn across Europe

It is a surprise to me. The (multiple) times I have tried to book sleepers in France and ended up on an overnight TGV because the sleeper has been fully-booked is testament to that.

 

[deltic]

French government withdrew funding for sleeper services in 2016 and I think there are just two left now

 

[Esker-pades]

French government withdrew funding for sleeper services in 2016 and I think there are just two left now

That's what I've heard too. It's a shame really.

 

[43096]

That would require huge subsidies - sleepers are an anachronism and it’s no surprise they are being withdrawn across Europe

Is that why ÖBB have placed a 700 vehicle framework contract with Siemens for new LHCS, including sleeper stock?
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...oebb-signs-700-coach-framework-agreement.html

 

[GrimShady]

There is always going to be a contingent of people who will use the Sleepers. The last thing I want to be doing heading south is driving to an airport for an extremely early flight to London, or suffering a 4 hour journey on a Pendolino during rush hour only to miss the train back to Oban or indeed spend another 4 hours on a 156 back home.

Part of the reason they're expensive is the utilisation of the locos is so poor during the day. Back when locos were hauling all sorts they generated more revenue. Sleeper stock however only has one use.

 

[GrimShady]

Is that why ÖBB have placed a 700 vehicle framework contract with Siemens for new LHCS, including sleeper stock?
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...oebb-signs-700-coach-framework-agreement.html

Europe once again showing us how it should be done. I do like the RailJet trains, shame we couldn't have some UK gauge for the ECML instead of the recent procurement.

 

[deltic]

Is that why ÖBB have placed a 700 vehicle framework contract with Siemens for new LHCS, including sleeper stock?
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...oebb-signs-700-coach-framework-agreement.html

Thanks for that - interesting that Austrians are following a different route to the Germans and French although it’s not clear in that article whether the sleepers and couchettes are part of the fixed order or the future option

 

[30907]

Thanks for that - interesting that Austrians are following a different route to the Germans and French although it’s not clear in that article whether the sleepers and couchettes are part of the fixed order or the future option

In the definite order, certainly the sleepers - mock up design recently re-publicised.
OEBB identified a very economical way of operating international sleepers in terms of resources and IIRC staffing, and picked the two DB routes that would fit with that. This coincided with their own need to replace elderly vehicles, their continuing involvement in more traditional Central European night trains, and I suspect pressure to retain an internal east-west service.
I would suspect that night trains are a bigger part of their long distance offer than DB's was, and this makes them in some ways like Servo as a niche operator, which brings us back on topic

 

[Bungle965]

French government withdrew funding for sleeper services in 2016 and I think there are just two left now

3 left, a shadow of what they once were.
Sam

 

[Esker-pades]

3 left, a shadow of what they once were.
Sam

Which ones specifically?
(I'll guess Paris-Nice, Paris-Bourg St Maurice (Winter Only) and Paris-Bordeaux and onwards to......Dax? Hendaye?)

 

[johnnychips]

From The Man in Seat 61:

Paris-Toulouse-Latour de Carol (with connection to Barcelona)

Paris-Rodez

Paris-Briancon

Paris-Perpignan-Narbonne-Portbou (daily in summer, Fri & Sun in winter)

These will continue to be funded as socially necessary for the regions they serve.

The Paris-Nice intercité de nuit (once the famous Train Bleu) was discontinued on 9 December 2017.

 

[deltic]

Recent French newspaper reports call two routes Paris-Briançon and Paris-Rodez / Latour-de-Carol as the last two Intercités de nuit which will be maintained and rolling stock renovated at a cost of €30m. It seems that the subsidy for night trains is around 50% which is broadly the same as the Caledonian Sleeper.

Story in French is at https://www.boursorama.com/actualit...s-et-renoves-f3359bc1ea3b78a0c8a057d6c36fd296

 

[Esker-pades]

Recent French newspaper reports call two routes Paris-Briançon and Paris-Rodez / Latour-de-Carol as the last two Intercités de nuit which will be maintained and rolling stock renovated at a cost of €30m. It seems that the subsidy for night trains is around 50% which is broadly the same as the Caledonian Sleeper.

Story in French is at https://www.boursorama.com/actualit...s-et-renoves-f3359bc1ea3b78a0c8a057d6c36fd296

Those are some of the last services I would have considered to be worth saving. I've done the Briançon sleeper at high season (skiiing time) and it was fairly lightly loaded.

 

[Bungle965]

Those are some of the last services I would have considered to be worth saving. I've done the Briançon sleeper at high season (skiiing time) and it was fairly lightly loaded.

I'm comparison I have used the Portbou/Latour-de-Carol portion in summer and found it to be quite busy. Mind you if the large group of scouts were not there then it would have been more lightly loaded.
Sam

 

[30907]

Those are some of the last services I would have considered to be worth saving. I've done the Briançon sleeper at high season (skiiing time) and it was fairly lightly loaded.

But, as quoted by johnnychips, they serve those parts of France that are particularly remote in rail terms, and it's a public policy matter.