Caledonian Sleeper remerger with ScotRail? Rumours abound.

[Christmas]

Having travelled on the Caledonian Sleeper a lot recently I have noticed the standards slipping with the rolling stock. This is well documented elsewhere on this forum. I have heard from both Sleeper staff and one or two figures at ScotRail that the split has not been as successful as had been hoped. With both Serco and Abellio running into financial troubles with their respective franchises, could bringing the Sleepers back under the ScotRail umbrella be more than a rumour? If so would this be the new publicly owned company?

 

[alistairlees]

Doesn't this need to go in the speculation thread?

 

[ainsworth74]

I must admit it always struck me as the height of insanity to split the two in the first place as all it was likely to achieve was increase Caledonian Sleeper's cost base (for instance by having to employ their own guards and contract a freight company to supply not only locomotives but drivers as well).

I also can't help but feel that Caledonian Sleeper's new pricing strategy is extremely high risk and could backfire quite badly for them by effectively changing their entire focus on tourists after an "experience" rather than targeting people who use it a mode of transport. I mean I've not seen anything official to confirm that but one simply has to look at the prices they're charging next year once their new stock starts to enter service to conclude that they're going after a very specific target group.

All in all I have to say that splitting the Sleepers from the main Scotrail franchise has been less than successful in my opinion.

 

[Clansman]

It is widely speculated by ScotRail staff that the whole Sleeper franchise is going to implode on itself at some point in the near future. Whether there is substance to this beyond the comical electric boards that do absolutely nothing at stations where no-one boards, is another thing.

It's become a service for (anyone but!) the 'hoi-paloii', rather than a service for the general commuter as it once was. The state of the Aberdeen sleeper is proof of this downfall as many people become more and more priced out of it.

The whole service has lost its heart and soul that many used to know, and its simply become a symbol of bugger all. Let's hope the rumours are true, as the whole idea behind it has been a massive blunder.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's become a service for the 'hoy-paloy' as we call It, rather than a service for the general commuter as it once was...

A dictionary will explain that the “hoi polloi” is actually the ordinary general public...

 

[Clansman]

A dictionary will explain that the “hoi polloi” is actually the ordinary general public...

Really? Never knew that, was always spoken in the context of the upper class where I'm from!

 

[GrimShady]

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

The current government seem keen in some aspects to various modes of transport to be brought under public control, probably due to wanting the independence vote.

I have a sneaky suspicion a certain Northern Isles ferry service will be next.

 

[pdeaves]

beyond the comical electric boards that do absolutely nothing

I'm not sure I understand what this means. Please could you elaborate?

 

[swt_passenger]

Really? Never knew that, was always spoken in the context of the upper class where I'm from!

I admit I had to double check, it’s not a phrase I’d usually use at all, but your post just didn’t seem right...

 

[cf111]

I'm not sure I understand what this means. Please could you elaborate?

CS have put up "information totems" at stations they call at, they are basically big TV screens showing information about services and adverts for the Sleeper:

(image shows a "totem" at Pitlochry station)

I think they also incorporate help-points that possibly link to the contact centre but I've never looked at one very closely.

As for the topic at hand, I can't justify the price of the Sleeper for work now and BA from Inverness to Heathrow (or EasyJet to Gatwick) wins the day. A shame really but hey ho. I'll try one trip on the new stock on my own dollar and then unless things change I'll probably never use it again.

 

[GrimShady]

It is widely speculated by ScotRail staff that the whole Sleeper franchise is going to implode on itself at some point in the near future. Whether there is substance to this beyond the comical electric boards that do absolutely nothing at stations where no-one boards, is another thing.

It's become a service for the 'hoy-paloy' as we call It, rather than a service for the general commuter as it once was. The state of the Aberdeen sleeper is proof of this downfall as many people become more and more priced out of it.

The whole service has lost its heart and soul that many used to know, and its simply become a symbol of bugger all. Let's hope the rumours are true, as the whole idea behind it has been a massive blunder.

The scale back of the oil industry in Aberdeen has surely played it's part in the reduction of traffic.

 

[Clansman]

The scale back of the oil industry in Aberdeen has surely played it's part in the resucredu of traffic.

Can't deny that it surely played a huge part, but the same could be said for the difference in pricing strategies of the Sleeper during and post ScotRail.

 

[gord]

CS have put up "information totems" at stations they call at, they are basically big TV screens showing information about services and adverts for the Sleeper:

(image shows a "totem" at Pitlochry station)

I think they also incorporate help-points that possibly link to the contact centre but I've never looked at one very closely.

As for the topic at hand, I can't justify the price of the Sleeper for work now and BA from Inverness to Heathrow (or EasyJet to Gatwick) wins the day. A shame really but hey ho. I'll try one trip on the new stock on my own dollar and then unless things change I'll probably never use it again.

When I was at Corrour earlier this year, I was surprised to find one of these in the shelter there. It helpfully told me what buses went from the station and other onward travel links!

 

[delt1c]

Surely a reason to have all rail transport in Scotland under 1 operator

 

[jopsuk]

Sounds like wibble. If Serco are meeting franchise requirements and not losing money, they'll be unlikely to give up the franchise early- it runs until the end of March 2030! At the very least, I can't see there being any moves until the new stock has been fully introduced. Meanwhile Scotrail has plenty of its own problems, and I'd have thought it unlikely that Abellio would want to take on the risks of the Sleeper whilst it is undergoing change, without a serious financial incentive to do so.

 

[Mag_seven]

contract a freight company to supply not only locomotives but drivers as well

Under Scotrail the driving and most of the guarding was still contracted out to a freight company (DBC).

 

[Clansman]

Sounds like wibble. If Serco are meeting franchise requirements and not losing money, they'll be unlikely to give up the franchise early- it runs until the end of March 2030! At the very least, I can't see there being any moves until the new stock has been fully introduced. Meanwhile Scotrail has plenty of its own problems, and I'd have thought it unlikely that Abellio would want to take on the risks of the Sleeper whilst it is undergoing change, without a serious financial incentive to do so.

The full potential of the whole idea behind having the Sleeper as its own franchise won't be realised until the new stock is introduced. As you say, the rumours are more inclined to be just bothy rumours, but only time will tell if the franchise will live up to the expectations it was built upon.

 

[pdeaves]

CS have put up "information totems" at stations they call at, they are basically big TV screens showing information about services and adverts for the Sleeper:

(image shows a "totem" at Pitlochry station)

I think they also incorporate help-points that possibly link to the contact centre but I've never looked at one very closely.

Thanks. Never seen them before (but rarely travel that way!).

 

[jopsuk]

The full potential of the whole idea behind having the Sleeper as its own franchise won't be realised until the new stock is introduced. As you say, the rumours are more inclined to be just bothy rumours, but only time will tell if the franchise will live up to the expectations it was built upon.

and the poor condition of the stock is possibly just a slightly premature winding down of repairs (especially cosmetic ones)

 

[NotATrainspott]

The sleeper was split out so that the company running it could be given the contract for long enough for them to be able to justify actual investment. The daytime ScotRail franchise just needed a bit of tweaking - a few extra services here, some reasonably standard new trains there - but the sleeper needed a whole new operation. The only way I can see them being merged back together would be if ScotRail shifted to a longer franchise model, or to a complete concession model where the Scottish Ministers make all investment and product decisions and the private company are simply there to roster the staff (like London Overground). That's not an unlikely model for the future but unless both Abellio and Serco want to throw in the towel early I can't see it happening too soon.

 

[Christmas]

Sounds like wibble. If Serco are meeting franchise requirements and not losing money, they'll be unlikely to give up the franchise early- it runs until the end of March 2030! At the very least, I can't see there being any moves until the new stock has been fully introduced. Meanwhile Scotrail has plenty of its own problems, and I'd have thought it unlikely that Abellio would want to take on the risks of the Sleeper whilst it is undergoing change, without a serious financial incentive to do so.

Yes, pure "wibble".
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...QqQIIKigBMAI&usg=AOvVaw172eaFxUjsJKrpGxul0TLI

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...QqQIIYCgBMAk&usg=AOvVaw3UEYRzyk0_eX8tRdtE3He2
Now tell me Serco are doing well.

 

[Tom Quinne]

I looked into using the CS next March for my 10th wedding anniversary, let’s say it was cheaper to go to New York than 1st class to Inverness with CS!

 

[deltic]

It should have been put out of its misery rather than being relet - every passenger is subsidised on average by £92 per trip

 

[paul1609]

It is widely speculated by ScotRail staff that the whole Sleeper franchise is going to implode on itself at some point in the near future. Whether there is substance to this beyond the comical electric boards that do absolutely nothing at stations where no-one boards, is another thing.

It's become a service for the 'hoy-paloy' as we call It, rather than a service for the general commuter as it once was. The state of the Aberdeen sleeper is proof of this downfall as many people become more and more priced out of it.

The whole service has lost its heart and soul that many used to know, and its simply become a symbol of bugger all. Let's hope the rumours are true, as the whole idea behind it has been a massive blunder.

Ive used the sleeper on a fairly regular basis for many years it hasn't had very many regular commuters on it for quite some time now. Its a combination of budget airlines and much higher frequency daytime trains on the E & WCML. Whilst I'm sure that there are commuters from some of the stations on the Inverness Portion that still use it in that vain by far the majority of passengers 95% plus I would say are tourists. Serco are right to be targeting that market thats what I'd do if it were my business.

 

[30909]

As an occasional user of the Lowland I find that I can use the down or up service to give me 8 - 10 hours plus at meetings in either Glasgow or Edinburgh; mostly a down service to Scotland after a full working day in the South East and a return on an early evening Virgin or LNER service to get me home, cross London, by midnight. This has been far more satisfactory than budget flights in and out of Gatwick or Southampton with the limitations on times and travel to from airports both ends.

 

[47271]

A bit of premature wishful thinking on the part of some I think.

Serco's business model, which of course we're all entitled to question (I for one am far from convinced that they're going to succeed) is built entirely around premium pricing of the new stock. Their ultimate contingency for the failure of the model may well be pulling out of the franchise, but I can't see them reaching that conclusion until well into 2020. They aren't in breach of their franchise commitments so the decision to end early would be entirely theirs as it stands.

As I recall, the costs reported in February related to the old trains both being more expensive to run than they had expected, and that they've had to keep them running longer than expected.

Feedback from Flexipass regulars on the Highlander is that whilst the service is quite a bit more expensive than four years ago, it's no less reliable and hospitality has improved. They see no catastrophic drop in passenger numbers - quite the reverse this summer in fact.

The problem with Scotrail's management they say is that First regarded the sleeper as an expensive distraction from running their day trains and there was little in the way of management focus. Serco are throwing significant resource at CS, not least through Rupert Soames own personal interest, and there's been no sign of a reduction of that over the past six months.

Never say never, but I think some real evidence other than a seven month old press story needs to be produced before the rumours gain any credibility.

 

[mirodo]

As for the topic at hand, I can't justify the price of the Sleeper for work now and BA from Inverness to Heathrow (or EasyJet to Gatwick) wins the day. A shame really but hey ho. I'll try one trip on the new stock on my own dollar and then unless things change I'll probably never use it again.

I’m using the sleeper in a couple of weeks to get me from London to an early Monday morning meeting in Glasgow. The alternatives are getting up at stupid o’clock on Monday morning to catch a flight, or spending 6 hours plus of my own time travelling up by train on Sunday afternoon and staying in a hotel. I don’t object to the sleeper journey being in my own time, as I’d be asleep anyway.

Price wise, when I looked into it, there wasn’t much difference between the sleeper and a EUS>GLA train + hotel + sustenance allowance for an evening meal on Sunday night. Certainly my manager agreed the sleeper was a suitable option and was happy to sign off the cost.

 

[scotraildriver]

Under Scotrail the driving and most of the guarding was still contracted out to a freight company (DBC).

All the guards were Scotrail guards and only the Edinburgh to Aberdeen/Inverness was DBC drivers. The Fort William and all the shunting was done by Scotrail drivers driving 67s. They were our best jobs I'd love to have them back.

 

[Mag_seven]

only the Edinburgh to Aberdeen/Inverness was DBC drivers.

Didn't DBC work all the Euston-Edinburgh/Glasgow legs as well?

 

[ainsworth74]

Whilst I'm sure that there are commuters from some of the stations on the Inverness Portion that still use it in that vain by far the majority of passengers 95% plus I would say are tourists. Serco are right to be targeting that market thats what I'd do if it were my business.

I think they're right to be targeting tourists (as you say not many people are using it for commuting even though they do exist) I'm just not sure that their pricing is going to actually work. Even booking a year in advance, on the Highland, they want £170 for a two people sharing (£185 if you want a room to yourself) for London to Fort William in the middle of September! Hardly the height of the season!

If you look at the Lowland, where the new stock will soon be introduced, the pricing is, to my mind, utterly barmy. Sticking with mid-September 2019 (so as far in advance as it's possible to book) for a solo traveller a 'Classic' (basically traditional berth) is £155, a 'Club' (single berth but with en-suite) is £230 and a 'Caledonian Double' (the berth with a double bed and en-suite) is £335. Travelling in a pair and it'll be £190, £280 and £400 for each of the three types of 'room'. I mean you could get an evening train from London arriving into Edinburgh around 2300 and then check in to a hotel and probably still be quids in!

Maybe it'll work and they'll fill the trains with people forking out over £200 but personally I'm doubtful. Perhaps I'm just too price sensitive and there is a large market of people out there who would be happy to pay that much! But unless they can really work the 'experience' angle I have grave doubts about this pricing strategy. And at those prices I'd say not only are they going after tourists but they're focusing on a small segment of the tourist market. That which has a lot of money to burn.