Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure about that. The colour scheme is a bit bland and I can't tell if they're carpeted from that image but the layout itself looks fine to me.

The layout looks completely misaligned to the windows, which as I believe the windows on those are basically bay-sized is very poor indeed.

 

[CardiffKid]

They are computer generated images.

I wouldn't read too much into seat alignment or carpet designs just yet.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Your going nowhere on your hobby horse about door positioning - there all going to be 1/2 & 2/3 and that's it.

In that case then, whatever they do to the interiors, they will be lower-spec units than the class 175 and 158 units they will replace. I'd rather we kept the 158s AND 175s if the only option for new trains is suburban stock that is completely unsuitable for regional express services. I've said it before and I'll say it until I'm blue in the face; we sent my rally driving brother to Nottingham by train (from Cardiff/Port Talbot) once (years ago now) and I expected him to make rude comments about the train being slow/late etc. Instead all he said when he got back was "the doors were in the wrong place" (or something like that). That made me think and realise how much space those doors waste, before then I would probably have been happy to see 377s,172/2s and 172/3s almost everywhere.

There are some renders of the interiors plus a small side-view in this local press article.

Thanks; my hope was that there'd be a higher-resolution version of that side view image floating around somewhere but that one still looks a little blury.

 

[Gareth Marston]

In that case then, whatever they do to the interiors, they will be lower-spec units than the class 175 and 158 units they will replace. I'd rather we kept the 158s AND 175s if the only option for new trains is suburban stock that is completely unsuitable for regional express services. I've said it before and I'll say it until I'm blue in the face; we sent my rally driving brother to Nottingham by train (from Cardiff/Port Talbot) once (years ago now) and I expected him to make rude comments about the train being slow/late etc. Instead all he said when he got back was "the doors were in the wrong place" (or something like that). That made me think and realise how much space those doors waste, before then I would probably have been happy to see 377s,172/2s and 172/3s almost everywhere.

OK so your brother didn't like Cardiff to Nottingham on a Turbostar- however as i said up-thread very few people will be asked to make journeys of over 3 hours like your brothers without alternatives. And remember just how many people are making 3 hour plus journeys internally on Wales and Borders?

North Wales/Chester/Wrexham customers will have the MK4's and can change at Crewe or Shrewsbury onto the First Class sections on the Manchester to Swansea trains as well. Likewise anyone doing Swansea-Cardiff to Manchester will have the option of First Class.

OK BHI to Aberystwyth/Cambrian Coast will be over 3 hours. However I cant remember anyone moaning about the door positioning when Central Trains ran Class 170's down to Aber between Mar 2000 & Oct 2001.

Edit 170's in fact looking back at some old correspondence with Cerdigion postcodes just now people were not happy about them being taken away when the Wales and Borders franchise was created.

 

[anamyd]

OK BHI to Aberystwyth/Cambrian Coast will be over 3 hours. However I cant remember anyone moaning about the door positioning when Central Trains ran Class 170's down to Aber between Mar 2000 & Oct 2001.

Edit 170's in fact looking back at some old correspondence with Cerdigion postcodes just now people were not happy about them being taken away when the Wales and Borders franchise was created.

I recently saw a photo of a 170 at Aberystwyth station. Have any other newer-than-158 trains (like 175s) ever visited "Aber" between 2001-2011...? Or older like 150s...?

 

[craigybagel]

They are computer generated images.

I wouldn't read too much into seat alignment or carpet designs just yet.

The image of the interiors of the CAFs is indeed not the final product, staff have been assured it will be a design much more suited to the W&B network.

I recently saw a photo of a 170 at Aberystwyth station. Have any other newer-than-158 trains (like 175s) ever visited "Aber" between 2001-2011...? Or older like 150s...?

Anything visiting in that period of time would have required RETB, which the 175s have never had so they won't have been down there.

 

[anamyd]

The image of the interiors of the CAFs is indeed not the final product, staff have been assured it will be a design much more suited to the W&B network.



Anything visiting in that period of time would have required RETB, which the 175s have never had so they won't have been down there.

That assurance is good re the Civitys! Since newer is only better if it's actually better...

And thanks for that Wierd how 175s have an Aberystwyth destination code (or they at least did; it may have been removed since they put new ones in with the Welsh and English displayed together), unless it was for wrong vehicle workings back from Birmingham / Wolverhampton with a change onto a 158 at Shrewsbury...?

 

[Parallel]

A 150 bound for Aberystwyth/Pwllheli ( ) left Birmingham with ‘Shrewsbury’ on the roller blind as Aberystwyth wasn’t there (the driver scrolled through from ‘Aber’, ‘Abergavenny’ etc.) so I assume it’s been some time since the 150s have been to Aberystwyth. Probably would have got away with using ‘Aber’ though - More people boarding would assume Aberystwyth than the small station on the outskirts of Caerphilly!

 

[6Gtraincrew]

The pics of the 230's are also incorrect as they show low backed seating throughout. But they will actually have high backed seats. Guess a mix like on the WMT ones.

 

[craigybagel]

That assurance is good re the Civitys! Since newer is only better if it's actually better...

And thanks for that Wierd how 175s have an Aberystwyth destination code (or they at least did; it may have been removed since they put new ones in with the Welsh and English displayed together), unless it was for wrong vehicle workings back from Birmingham / Wolverhampton with a change onto a 158 at Shrewsbury...?

It's not so much that the destinations have individual codes - every calling pattern has a different code (So using Aberystwyth as an example, on a Sunday the Birmingham International - Aberystwyth services use a different code as they don't stop at Smethwick). This is why if a service has an amended calling pattern (such as stopping short due to engineering work, or days like today when extra stops are being made at Northern stations due to the strikes), the entire system is usually switched off.

158s and 175s use the same codes even though they have entirely different PIS systems - so if one substitutes for the other on the day the system should still work.

A 150 bound for Aberystwyth/Pwllheli ( ) left Birmingham with ‘Shrewsbury’ on the roller blind as Aberystwyth wasn’t there (the driver scrolled through from ‘Aber’, ‘Abergavenny’ etc.) so I assume it’s been some time since the 150s have been to Aberystwyth. Probably would have got away with using ‘Aber’ though - More people boarding would assume Aberystwyth than the small station on the outskirts of Caerphilly!

Aber unfortunately isn't on the scroll. Neither is Birmingham International as they haven't been updated for some time! It should become moot though when the PRM mods take place if the scrolls are replaced with LED screens, then they'll probably work on the system I've described above.

 

[PHILIPE]

A 150 bound for Aberystwyth/Pwllheli ( ) left Birmingham with ‘Shrewsbury’ on the roller blind as Aberystwyth wasn’t there (the driver scrolled through from ‘Aber’, ‘Abergavenny’ etc.) so I assume it’s been some time since the 150s have been to Aberystwyth. Probably would have got away with using ‘Aber’ though - More people boarding would assume Aberystwyth than the small station on the outskirts of Caerphilly!

The 150 would not have gone beyond Shrewsbury as only 158s, all of which ATWs are ERTMS fitted, can work on the Cambrian

 

[Geoff DC]

What river is at the mouth of Aberystwyth? the Ystwyth?
Excuse my poor Welsh/Cornish

I remember Alphaline 158s - 11:36 (nearly all stations) from Penzance to Fishguard having bi-Lingual signs English & Welsh for the whole route - would have been more fun & politically correct to have Had Cornish First, then Welsh
+ for the German Immigrants/Invaders/Brexiteers (The English/ Anglo Saxons) + Tourists a third announcement in Inglish

 

[anamyd]

It's not so much that the destinations have individual codes - every calling pattern has a different code (So using Aberystwyth as an example, on a Sunday the Birmingham International - Aberystwyth services use a different code as they don't stop at Smethwick). This is why if a service has an amended calling pattern (such as stopping short due to engineering work, or days like today when extra stops are being made at Northern stations due to the strikes), the entire system is usually switched off.

158s and 175s use the same codes even though they have entirely different PIS systems - so if one substitutes for the other on the day the system should still work.



Aber unfortunately isn't on the scroll. Neither is Birmingham International as they haven't been updated for some time! It should become moot though when the PRM mods take place if the scrolls are replaced with LED screens, then they'll probably work on the system I've described above.

Oh right! Yeah I'm looking forward to when 150-285 (the one that was stripped out and bare metalled) is finished / revealed. I'm pretty sure it's going to be in the new red and white livery with LED exterior destination displays, the new door systems with obstacle detection and the new door openable/closing alarms, and inside, TfW seat upholstery, red grab handles, power sockets, audio-visual PIS, and PRM compliant wheelchair space and toilets (the latter being CETs). I'm guessing the rest of the 150s will then follow or at least some of them, what with the 150s having to outlast the 158s slightly, into 2023-2024.

 

[anamyd]

What river is at the mouth of Aberystwyth? the Ystwyth?
Excuse my poor Welsh/Cornish

I remember Alphaline 158s - 11:36 (nearly all stations) from Penzance to Fishguard having bi-Lingual signs English & Welsh for the whole route - would have been more fun & politically correct to have Had Cornish First, then Welsh
+ for the German Immigrants/Invaders/Brexiteers (The English/ Anglo Saxons) + Tourists a third announcement in Inglish

Haha. Aberystwyth = "the mouth of the Ystwyth".

 

[anamyd]

The pics of the 230's are also incorrect as they show low backed seating throughout. But they will actually have high backed seats. Guess a mix like on the WMT ones.

I watched the YouTube videos of 230003's delivery recently. I think it looks nice and kind of a teaser for the TfW 230s but I still don't understand why they use those damn 5-cylinder Ford TDCi engines as they're not heavy duty enough. Sure, Cummins ISB4.5-210s (for example) would have been more expensive but would have been much more durable (and less prone to catching fire!) than the Ford van/pickup engines.

 

[D6975]

The 150 would not have gone beyond Shrewsbury as only 158s, all of which ATWs are ERTMS fitted, can work on the Cambrian

150/1s used to go to Aberystwyth every day at the time he was talking about. He was talking about the 1990s.

 

[PHILIPE]

150/1s used to go to Aberystwyth every day at the time he was talking about. He was talking about the 1990s.

I read it as he was talking about the present and referred to the 1990s event just as a reference to that period.

 

[anamyd]

Who...?

 

[PHILIPE]

A 150 bound for Aberystwyth/Pwllheli ( ) left Birmingham with ‘Shrewsbury’ on the roller blind as Aberystwyth wasn’t there (the driver scrolled through from ‘Aber’, ‘Abergavenny’ etc.) so I assume it’s been some time since the 150s have been to Aberystwyth. Probably would have got away with using ‘Aber’ though - More people boarding would assume Aberystwyth than the small station on the outskirts of Caerphilly!

Sorry, this one

 

[Parallel]

The 150 would not have gone beyond Shrewsbury as only 158s, all of which ATWs are ERTMS fitted, can work on the Cambrian

Yes, I am well aware having used the route frequently the last few years. The blinds on the 150s certainly aren't new though which shows it's been some time since a 150 visited (likely to be well before ERTMS was installed?)

The 150/2 I saw at Birmingham was a few weeks ago.

 

[sefyllian]

What river is at the mouth of Aberystwyth? the Ystwyth?

Haha. Aberystwyth = "the mouth of the Ystwyth".

QI Klaxon! Correct meaning, but Aberystwyth’s name is misleading – it's actually on the mouth of the river Rheidol. The river Ystwyth (literally, the winding river) is slightly to the south.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I recently saw a photo of a 170 at Aberystwyth station. Have any other newer-than-158 trains (like 175s) ever visited "Aber" between 2001-2011...? Or older like 150s...?

We use to get everything from Central Trains fleet up to October 2001. 150, 153,156,158 & 170. Then when Wales and Borders were created we got the homogeneous 158 fleet and that's been it ever since.

 

[jimm]

I watched the YouTube videos of 230003's delivery recently. I think it looks nice and kind of a teaser for the TfW 230s but I still don't understand why they use those damn 5-cylinder Ford TDCi engines as they're not heavy duty enough. Sure, Cummins ISB4.5-210s (for example) would have been more expensive but would have been much more durable (and less prone to catching fire!) than the Ford van/pickup engines.

The reasons for the fire were not down to the basic design of the Ford engine. It was a leak from the fuel system feeding the train's generator set, thought to be the result of a faulty repair which did not follow Ford's workshop manual instructions. Fuel sprayed out and it is believed the heat of the turbocharger ignited it.

The full report and the changes in procedures and to the design of the train are here http://vivarail.co.uk/wp-content/up...01-Class-230-Full-Fire-Report-Action-Plan.pdf

 

[krus_aragon]

QI Klaxon! Correct meaning, but Aberystwyth’s name is misleading – it's actually on the mouth of the river Rheidol. The river Ystwyth (literally, the winding river) is slightly to the south.

Don't they both merge just before flowing out to sea? But yes, the river that flows through most of modern Aberystwyth is the Rheidiol.

 

[33017]

We use to get everything from Central Trains fleet up to October 2001. 150, 153,156,158 & 170. Then when Wales and Borders were created we got the homogeneous 158 fleet and that's been it ever since.

Quite. During W&B days the only units used were 158844-158854 plus 158855 for a short period. The decision was then made during 2003 to reinstate the RETB equipment on all other 158s in the fleet (158818-158843) but I can't remember if 158842 or 843 were done before they were transferred away.

Nothing else has worked passenger trains on the Cambrian in 17 years (unless you count the rare occasions failures resulted in ticket acceptance on the summer steam trains).

 

[PHILIPE]

Quite. During W&B days the only units used were 158844-158854 plus 158855 for a short period. The decision was then made during 2003 to reinstate the RETB equipment on all other 158s in the fleet (158818-158843) but I can't remember if 158842 or 843 were done before they were transferred away.

Nothing else has worked passenger trains on the Cambrian in 17 years (unless you count the rare occasions failures resulted in ticket acceptance on the summer steam trains).

When Wales and Borders took over the Cambrian from Central Trains in 2001 (I think it was about that time) those particular units were transferred over but still remained allocated to and maintained at Tyseley.

 

[anamyd]

The reasons for the fire were not down to the basic design of the Ford engine. It was a leak from the fuel system feeding the train's generator set, thought to be the result of a faulty repair which did not follow Ford's workshop manual instructions. Fuel sprayed out and it is believed the heat of the turbocharger ignited it.

The full report and the changes in procedures and to the design of the train are here http://vivarail.co.uk/wp-content/up...01-Class-230-Full-Fire-Report-Action-Plan.pdf

Thanks for that I've actually read that already, but a while back so I just read it again. I hope they've resolved the melting issue by not keeping so many damn plastic parts!

 

[33017]

When Wales and Borders took over the Cambrian from Central Trains in 2001 (I think it was about that time) those particular units were transferred over but still remained allocated to and maintained at Tyseley.

I know. Tyseley did all the B exams but Machynlleth did most of the A exams. Frequently had to arrange swaps at new Street to get one on or off shed. From memory, nine of the eleven were required each day but you could get away with eight. Needless to say, they were very rare off the Cambrian.

 

[Rhydgaled]

OK so your brother didn't like Cardiff to Nottingham on a Turbostar- however as i said up-thread very few people will be asked to make journeys of over 3 hours like your brothers without alternatives. And remember just how many people are making 3 hour plus journeys internally on Wales and Borders?

Why the 3hr threshold? Why should pepole making 2 hour journeys such as Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury suffer reduced quality trains? London Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour is under two hours on a fast service and I agree with the plan to replace 450s on those services with 5-WES (Wessex Electric) units. Admittedly in that case it is not only the door arangement to compain about (2+3 seating and 20m versus 23m vehicles will be having an impact too), but I still feel that if a service does not need to stop frequently at busy stations then trains should be optimised for comfort and that means the 5-WES units (or 444s) are more appropriate in that case.

The way I look at it is more how many pepole are making very short journeys of only 5-10 minutes, particularly where this demand is 'peaky', versus the number of pepole making relatively long journeys (anything from about 1 hour upwards is 'relatively long' in this context). Borth to Machynlleth, Machynlleth to Caersws, Newtown to Welshpool and Welshpool to Shrewsbury are all sufficiently long gaps between stations that I don't think you should be expecting pepole to stand (I've not counted Dovey Junction as very few, if any, will be starting/finishing a journey there). Thus the wide doors would be taking away furnishable space for no reason. True, stations on the Cambrian coast are much closer together but many of them are request stops with relatively light use and are unlikely to cause a dwell time issue* (and in many cases a fair proportion of passengers using them are likely to be going some distance rather than just to the next stop, unlike on a city metro network).

* or, if it did, it would be due to local-door operation at a short platform rather than the design of the train.

QI Klaxon! Correct meaning, but Aberystwyth’s name is misleading – it's actually on the mouth of the river Rheidol. The river Ystwyth (literally, the winding river) is slightly to the south.

Don't they both merge just before flowing out to sea? But yes, the river that flows through most of modern Aberystwyth is the Rheidiol.

I believe krus_aragon is correct, the Rheidol and the Ystwyth meet the sea in almost the same place (whether the Ystwyth actually meets the sea or the Rheidol I'm not entirely sure). I suppose Aberystwyth could equaly have been called Aberrheidiol, but what does the 'Aber' on the ValleyLines relate too? Is it just 'mouth' as in a person's mouth rather than one river following into another?

 

[krus_aragon]

but what does the 'Aber' on the ValleyLines relate too? Is it just 'mouth' as in a person's mouth rather than one river following into another?

"Aber" refers exclusively to an estuary or river mouth, never a jaw or mandibles.
Based on a glance at a modern map, it may be the mouth of Nant Ddu flowing to Nant Gledyr, or Nant Gledyr flowing into the castle moat.