Arriva Rail North DOO

[muz379]

I think most people are missing the point however... Northern like Southern are talking about operating DCO where a second safety trained employee is present on board the services not fully blown DOO.

DOO is completely different and most DOO routes such as Thameslink and Southern Brighton-Victoria for example are serving high density settlements with the majority of stations having staffed platforms who dispatch the train (or on TLK North are present supervising and assiting on the platform), and are available to assist the driver.

As of yet I have not seen any guarantee from northern that every train will carry a second safety critical/trained employee .I suspect if there was such a guarantee this would take much of the sting out of the RMT's campaign because as people point out here plenty of people want guaranteed staff on trains even if they do not really care about all of the details of that staff members role .

And all this semantics around DOO or DCO is IMO irrelevant . What Northern want is the ability to run trains under the sole control of the driver . So to do that the trains will be running under the rulebook provisions for DOO-P . There are no rulebook provisions for DCO because it is not a recognised form of operation . Just a name given to DOO to make it seem more acceptable .

Ok, I was confusing it with the SWR strike debate showing around 53 members had left the union since the last ballot.
I wonder if the RMT would be happy for northern to mirror the agreements the likes of SWT signed ages ago bringing their Sunday’s into the working week (in which case the TOCs are probably more at fault for not acting sooner) or is the long-standing deadlock really because the union now want something far more generous.

I dont know about the deal on SWT to bring sundays in the week . But I know that the RMT has agreed Sundays inside the week at several TOC's .

Of course what would be considered an acceptable agreement at Northern would be a matter for the reps and full time officer to consider and negotiate for after canvassing opinion from people in the grade at Northern .

It is impossible to say that any agreement at one TOC would directly mirror another in these circumstances because the starting positions could be completely different , and the reps and members themselves might have other views .

In the training school they are taught about evacuation, hot weather barriers and GSMR. Full PTS was never going to be delivered the company did not want them laying track circuit clips and detonators. If the train is rapidly catching fire you dont need route knowledge to know it's time for everyone to get off the train. And in any case the Driver with route knowledge would be there to take the lead.

You do however need route knowledge to know about local risks in the environment that you are evacuating these people into . Direction of travel and speed of trains . Local evacuation arrangements in remote or enclosed spaces etc etc .

Guards cause more delay minutes than driver only services. This is the key reason to amend their jobs. Guards also do not routinely prevent any of the other problems in this list, but could be more effective with customer care if they were not operating train doors from fixed placements in the train.

My experience is that a guard can actually reduce station dwell times significantly . Things like directing passengers with bikes , passengers with large items of luggage and those with buggies to the correct doors (even with stickers/pictures people try and board bikes at unsuitable locations) even just directing large numbers of passengers to make use of all doors . It might only be seconds here and there but over a journey with numerous stops it could easily add up to a few minutes .

Situations when guards can and do even further reduce delay is when a passcom has been pulled . And arranging fitters to meet trains when there is a fault . Both situations when a driver would have to stop and do the above tasks themselves .

There are occasions when guards cause a delay by being late to open doors . This could be alleviated by fitting intermediate control panels so guards are never 2 carriages away from a door control panel on a frequently stopping service .

Delay minutes is another issue. If these could be so reduced by having a guard, so that it was profitable to do so, then it would be done.

The thing is we are talking about Northern here . So it is all speculation as to what is going to happen with delay minutes . Some people have suggested that having drivers dispatch trains will reduce the number of delay minutes . My experience , and opinion is that dwell times will increase .

 

[Killingworth]

You do however need route knowledge to know about local risks in the environment that you are evacuating these people into . Direction of travel and speed of trains . Local evacuation arrangements in remote or enclosed spaces etc etc .

My experience is that a guard can actually reduce station dwell times significantly . Things like directing passengers with bikes , passengers with large items of luggage and those with buggies to the correct doors (even with stickers/pictures people try and board bikes at unsuitable locations) even just directing large numbers of passengers to make use of all doors . It might only be seconds here and there but over a journey with numerous stops it could easily add up to a few minutes .

My line is the Hope Valley with Totley Tunnel at 3.5 miles and Cowburn another 2 (and Disley a further 2, but not normally used by Northern) on the Sheffield-Manchester stopping route. I totally agree about route knowledge and I'd hope all crew are aware of what to do in the event of an incident in a tunnel.

I'm told there are emergency phones every 1/3 of a mile in Totley tunnel and that two trains can't be in the tunnel at the same time going in the same direction. In the event that exit in the direction of travel is blocked the train should be able to safely reverse the way it has come. This means a 6 minute separation has to be maintained between trains.

I know an east bound loco hauled train derailed towards the Grindleford end in 1961 (broken rail), the coupling to the locomotive with 2 crew gave way and it didn't stop until Totley East box. Fortunately nothing was coming the other way. More recent anecdotal evidence says a DMU may have stopped in the tunnel with a fire, but it seems it got out safely under it's own power.

From Grindleford station at the west entrance to the tunnel to Totley East box is 4 miles, the final half a mile of that on the surface but in a deep cutting. Last year three of us got into conversation with our conductor and weren't convinced he knew what special emergency procedures he'd have to adopt in the tunnel, but at least he was there.

Helping the loading and unloading of bikes, the elderly, blind, and young children at our stations is a major task for conductors thanks to some massive gaps between differing classes of units doors and the platforms. Conductors can be confronted with groups of pre-school age children, parties of Chinese students or tourists, and maybe half a dozen bikes.

Sheffield is an ungated station and all stations after New Mills into Sheffield are unmanned. TVMs are being installed, but are unreliable, possibly down for 30% of the time when they're needed. Sometimes doubled up Pacers operate and revenue can't be protected in the front unit.

It's almost comical if it weren't serious.

RMT are seemingly adamant that they want all or nothing. Northern the same. At present we're getting nothing every Saturday. It's high time heads were knocked together and someone said, "OK, that's one route were we have to have two crew members on all trains, lets agree that and offer them a full service, call off the strike on that line". That said, allowing drivers to open the doors would save a few seconds at most stops and surely wouldn't do anyone any harm.

Running the train with a driver, alone, would certainly not speed matters up. Imagine him alone trying to prevent the bikes in this picture being loaded, and then confirming all 6 had safely left again! Or maybe he could, this lot were at the front of the train, but they could well have boarded at the back.

 

[CN75]

My experience is that a guard can actually reduce station dwell times significantly . Things like directing passengers with bikes , passengers with large items of luggage and those with buggies to the correct doors (even with stickers/pictures people try and board bikes at unsuitable locations) even just directing large numbers of passengers to make use of all doors . It might only be seconds here and there but over a journey with numerous stops it could easily add up to a few minutes .

Situations when guards can and do even further reduce delay is when a passcom has been pulled . And arranging fitters to meet trains when there is a fault . Both situations when a driver would have to stop and do the above tasks themselves .

There are occasions when guards cause a delay by being late to open doors . This could be alleviated by fitting intermediate control panels so guards are never 2 carriages away from a door control panel on a frequently stopping service .

The thing is we are talking about Northern here . So it is all speculation as to what is going to happen with delay minutes . Some people have suggested that having drivers dispatch trains will reduce the number of delay minutes . My experience , and opinion is that dwell times will increase .

There are definitely occasions a guard will help reduce delays but almost none of them relate to opening and closing doors. Instead, where guards have stopped controlling doors (at c2c, London Overground and now results showing on Southern too), reliability and punctuality has improved.

The reason guards cause delay minutes is down to being slow, or being in the wrong place, being late, being sick, making an operating mistake, being available but not knowing the right route, not having had enough rest during a break. Some of it is a matter of conduct of individual guards, some of it is bad luck on the day when things go wrong. A system which has no guards or can run without in ‘exceptional’ conditions saves (a lot) of delay minutes. Good publically available information might be the reliability statistics of London Overground or c2c. However, both of these are small networks - so the benefits of DO applied to an operation like Northern’s performance, in the major cities, could be much more pronounced.

Looked at like this, when a second member of staff is on the train either always or nearly always, that person would ideally be completely focused on customer service and doing what they can to cut out delays even further. Having them operationally restricted by routes or type of train, or giving them any involvement in the process to move the train, makes them a potential delay cause.

 

[Robertj21a]

A driver plus OBS would meet most passenger's expectations. The OBS would be routinely required, but not *always* essential, for the train to run.
Isn't this effectively what now works well at Southern ?

 

[LowLevel]

My line is the Hope Valley with Totley Tunnel at 3.5 miles and Cowburn another 2 (and Disley a further 2, but not normally used by Northern) on the Sheffield-Manchester stopping route. I totally agree about route knowledge and I'd hope all crew are aware of what to do in the event of an incident in a tunnel.

I'm told there are emergency phones every 1/3 of a mile in Totley tunnel and that two trains can't be in the tunnel at the same time going in the same direction. In the event that exit in the direction of travel is blocked the train should be able to safely reverse the way it has come. This means a 6 minute separation has to be maintained between trains.

I know an east bound loco hauled train derailed towards the Grindleford end in 1961 (broken rail), the coupling to the locomotive with 2 crew gave way and it didn't stop until Totley East box. Fortunately nothing was coming the other way. More recent anecdotal evidence says a DMU may have stopped in the tunnel with a fire, but it seems it got out safely under it's own power.

From Grindleford station at the west entrance to the tunnel to Totley East box is 4 miles, the final half a mile of that on the surface but in a deep cutting. Last year three of us got into conversation with our conductor and weren't convinced he knew what special emergency procedures he'd have to adopt in the tunnel, but at least he was there.

Totley Tunnel is basically an absolute block section between Totley Tunnel East and Grindleford signalboxes which is why you don't get more than 1 train through at once. The only signals within the tunnel are the colour light distants for the 2 signalboxes.

It has reflectorised numbered marker boards throughout it for location and fault reporting and it also has GSM-R radio repeaters like everywhere else so your radio (should) work reliably.

If you catch fire in the tunnel you're undoubtedly in trouble between smoke and mileage whatever you do however you cross your fingers and hope it doesn't happen like anything else. Everyone is aware of the large chamber and that the vent shafts are all at the Yorkshire end.

The most ridiculous incident I've had to deal with in the Hope Valley tunnels was in Cowburn Tunnel. We crossed a steam charter in it. My driver had his cab window open, his cab filled with smoke which he couldn't clear and the train's air conditioning drew it into the saloon as well which led the passengers to believe it was on fire. I was in the saloon checking tickets and noticed what was going on, had seen the photters for the steam train and was able to make announcements before someone decided to pull the pass com

 

[scrapy]

There are definitely occasions a guard will help reduce delays but almost none of them relate to opening and closing doors. Instead, where guards have stopped controlling doors (at c2c, London Overground and now results showing on Southern too), reliability and punctuality has improved.

The reason guards cause delay minutes is down to being slow, or being in the wrong place, being late, being sick, making an operating mistake, being available but not knowing the right route, not having had enough rest during a break. Some of it is a matter of conduct of individual guards, some of it is bad luck on the day when things go wrong. A system which has no guards or can run without in ‘exceptional’ conditions saves (a lot) of delay minutes. Good publically available information might be the reliability statistics of London Overground or c2c. However, both of these are small networks - so the benefits of DO applied to an operation like Northern’s performance, in the major cities, could be much more pronounced.

Looked at like this, when a second member of staff is on the train either always or nearly always, that person would ideally be completely focused on customer service and doing what they can to cut out delays even further. Having them operationally restricted by routes or type of train, or giving them any involvement in the process to move the train, makes them a potential delay cause.

I can't say for sure on delays at Northern but the biggest 2 underlying reason for cancellations regarding 'shortage of train conductors' has been rostering errors and diagrams uncovered due to lines uncovered due to vacancies at the depots, that's surely the fault of the TOC rather than individual guards?

 

[kw12]

I can't say for sure on delays at Northern but the biggest 2 underlying reason for cancellations regarding 'shortage of train conductors' has been rostering errors and diagrams uncovered due to lines uncovered due to vacancies at the depots, that's surely the fault of the TOC rather than individual guards?

Most passengers do not care why their train's conductor is not present or whose fault it is. They just want the conductor's absence not to lead to their train being cancelled.

 

[scrapy]

Most passengers do not care why their train's conductor is not present or whose fault it is. They just want the conductor's absence not to lead to their train being cancelled.

I agree with you, but Tory MPs have been on record saying DOO means a train is less likely to be cancelled rather than criticising and holding the TOC to account when they are at fault.

Whilst most passengers

 

[Carlisle]

I can't say for sure on delays at Northern but the biggest 2 underlying reason for cancellations regarding 'shortage of train conductors' has been rostering errors and diagrams uncovered due to lines uncovered due to vacancies at the depots, that's surely the fault of the TOC rather than individual guards?

True, but I can also understand why having full depot complements each with several sitting spare throughout the day just to avoid the possibility of cancellations, wont likely be considered a great use of resources, so it wasn’t at all surprising to expect the whole set up to be reviewed at some point

 

[Tomnick]

True, but I can also understand why having full depot complements each with several sitting spare throughout the day just to avoid the possibility of cancellations, wont likely be considered a great use of resources, so it wasn’t at all surprising to expect the whole set up to be reviewed at some point

A meaningful commitment to providing a second member of staff on every train, including during disruption when passengers will need the help most, you mean? It sounds much better than running the job with just the bare minimum which clearly shows intent to run a number of trains without a second member of staff right from the beginning.

 

[superkev]

Even in the unlikely event of the government allowing northern to back down to union demands with all lost pay and more importantly pension it could never be claimed as a win.
Better to have compromised at the start with something say like driver worked doors and a guard on all trains over say 3 cars or perhaps only doo with decent cctv and obstucal detection that works down the train.
K

 

[Carlisle]

A meaningful commitment to providing a second member of staff on every train, including during disruption when passengers will need the help most, you mean?.

Not so, franchise agreements can specify sensible levels of onboard staff required that TOCs must adhere to, but given today’s technology allows most brand new trains to run single manned provided certain safety conditions are satisfied , I’d choose to finance public transport for communities that currently have access to zero or almost zero train or bus services , before funding folk sitting spare all day .

 

[Killingworth]

Today I saw a 153 trundling across North Lincolnshire from Barton to Cleethorpes. At present there are no TVMs on the two stations we passed. The train seemed to have one passenger aboard at the point we saw it. Presumably there was both a driver and conductor on the train. The logical economic solution here might be to close the line and offer a free taxi service, it would probably see a greater take up of the service and be cheaper to run - but that isn't an option.

No wonder Northern's finances give any accountant nightmares. What changes are possible within any DOO agreement to reduce the costs of services like these? I choose an extreme example, but very many, probably most, Northern services will never be financially viable. Any solution to this dispute has to take this very much into account. Find ways to improve that situation and it must make a resolution easier. All TOCs have similar problems. None has much of an answer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While such services are often DOO in the likes of Germany and Switzerland, I am not aware of any proposals that would reduce the costs on services like those. I'd venture that the targets for "pure" DOO on Northern are more likely to be things like Manchester local EMUs where you can have Penalty Fares and barriers as you do down South and keep the ticketing off the train.

With regard to that type of service I'd love to see some German style *improvements* - new or well-refurbished rolling stock with higher acceleration than Sprinters (e.g. 230s or if buying new FLIRTs), clockface timetables etc - to drive growth rather than just assuming you're going to subsidise a Class 153 batting back and forth at irregular intervals with one man and his dog aboard. But that takes foresight.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Running the train with a driver, alone, would certainly not speed matters up. Imagine him alone trying to prevent the bikes in this picture being loaded, and then confirming all 6 had safely left again! Or maybe he could, this lot were at the front of the train, but they could well have boarded at the back.

The correct answer to that problem is not in fact to prevent the bikes being loaded, but instead to operate rolling stock that has adequate capacity for those wishing to use it, which for a very leisure oriented and often busy service like the Hope Valley stoppers would probably mean a 4x20m or 3x23m train (SDO or lengthened platforms) with a third of a coach (a centre section of a Class 150 would be about right) dedicated to carrying 8 to 10 bicycles with proper racks for the purpose. ScotRail's Class 153 proposal is bob on the money here.

It's better to solve the actual problems than to provide a member of staff to attempt to manage them.

Indeed, there are not all that many problems Northern has (other than Platform 13/14 at Picc) that would not be solved quite well by simply throwing a load of SDO-fitted DMUs (or in some cases bi-modes) at it. It's a much simpler problem than South East commuter overcrowding, for instance. And I bet it wouldn't be as much of a financial basket case to do so as people might think, as I bet there's a load of latent suppressed demand on many Northern routes caused by the fact that the service as a whole is, in essence, a load of garbage run badly on the cheap, basically held together by some very hard working and committed frontline staff.

 

[northwichcat]

Result of ACAS talks - no progress
https://www.yorkshirecoastradio.com/news/local-news/2689556/no-progress-in-northern-rail-dispute/

 

[northernchris]

Result of ACAS talks - no progress
https://www.yorkshirecoastradio.com/news/local-news/2689556/no-progress-in-northern-rail-dispute/

I think everyone could have predicted that! Presume this will now mean prolonged Saturday strikes in the run up to Christmas

 

[yorksrob]

Result of ACAS talks - no progress
https://www.yorkshirecoastradio.com/news/local-news/2689556/no-progress-in-northern-rail-dispute/

"Surprise surprise, the unexpected hits you between the eyes"

 

[OxtedSignaller]

No doubt the government has refused to nudge on Driver Controlled Operation. Might be time to change tactics and aim for a better version of the OBS solution seen on Southern cut down on the clauses, maybe even go for a guarantee of a second person the 2:1 ratio seems to of reduced lack of cover, bar disruption where crew are displaced plus the flexibility for on board staff to be used across the network if required for whatever reason. I just do not see how flat out refusing to recognise or negotiate is going to do any of the members any favours. Perhaps I am being premature and the dispute has a long way to go.

 

[Robertj21a]

Result of ACAS talks - no progress
https://www.yorkshirecoastradio.com/news/local-news/2689556/no-progress-in-northern-rail-dispute/

I'm just waiting for the RMT statement, where it will just repeat everything they've ever said before !

There's a lot of time and money being wasted when there seems little likelihood of there being any changes agreed.

 

[Carlisle]

I just do not see how flat out refusing to recognise or negotiate is going to do any of the members any favours. Perhaps I am being premature and the dispute has a long way to go.

It would certainly benefit the industrys side of the debate if Merseyrail were to request a disruption clause as part of their final DOO settlement with the RMT , as currently the union appears reasonably happy just sitting back in anticipation the strikes will soon have the remaining TOCs collapsing like dominos.

 

[a_c_skinner]

remaining TOCs collapsing like dominos

Only an all out strike will do that. Or it might not. Going on with the current level of IA will just be tolerated by all concerned, esp if it is at weekends mainly.

 

[Killingworth]

Here's the RMT response; http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-blasts-northern-rail-for-collapsing-latest-talks/

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, I just watched the little video on that, and all of the incidents described except one were situations in which the passenger should have considered using the passcom to obtain assistance from the driver.

Is the threat of a fine for misuse discouraging people from using something that was provided for their safety? (It was introduced, I believe, after a murder on a train many years ago).

The faulty passcom in the toilet was the only one where it was used as one might expect, but the person speaking seemed to think they were doing wrong! Clearly the wrong message - but if there was a guard he would have no idea someone was stuck in the bog either if the passcom actually wasn't working.

 

[Kite159]

Blimey a RMT press release which didn't mention the Germans!

 

[Robertj21a]

Here's the RMT response; http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-blasts-northern-rail-for-collapsing-latest-talks/

So it's only the company that is intransigent.........??

 

[Jamesrob637]

Presumably they'll announce today or tomorrow whether a strike will take place on 06 October given a fortnights notice?

 

[peri]

PLEASE IGNORE ALL BELOW THIS, I AM AN IDIOT

"RMT confirms a further two days of strike action on Arriva Rail North in guards' safety dispute.


RAIL UNION RMT has confirmed that a further two days of strike action on Arriva Rail North will go ahead on Tuesday 3rd October and Thursday 5th October as the company continues to resist all efforts to make progress in the long-running dispute over rail safety and the head-long dash towards Driver Only Operation.




Members will strike between 0001 hours and 2359 hours on Tuesday 3rd October and Thursday 5th October."


I HAVE LEFT THIS UP SO THE FOLLOWING POSTS MAKE SENSE AND TO CONFIRM THAT I AM INDEED AN IDIOT

 

[Smidster]

"RMT confirms a further two days of strike action on Arriva Rail North in guards' safety dispute.

RAIL UNION RMT has confirmed that a further two days of strike action on Arriva Rail North will go ahead on Tuesday 3rd October and Thursday 5th October as the company continues to resist all efforts to make progress in the long-running dispute over rail safety and the head-long dash towards Driver Only Operation.

Members will strike between 0001 hours and 2359 hours on Tuesday 3rd October and Thursday 5th October."

Extracted from:
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-two-days-of-strike-action-on-arriva-rail-north1909/

Change of tactics?

That is from last year isn't it? October 3rd is a Wednesday

 

[muz379]

"RMT confirms a further two days of strike action on Arriva Rail North in guards' safety dispute.

RAIL UNION RMT has confirmed that a further two days of strike action on Arriva Rail North will go ahead on Tuesday 3rd October and Thursday 5th October as the company continues to resist all efforts to make progress in the long-running dispute over rail safety and the head-long dash towards Driver Only Operation.

Members will strike between 0001 hours and 2359 hours on Tuesday 3rd October and Thursday 5th October."

Extracted from:
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-two-days-of-strike-action-on-arriva-rail-north1909/

Change of tactics?

"19 September 2017"