HS2 and Liverpool

[notlob.divad]

Manchester "Airport" station isn't really about serving Manchester Airport (though it is a side benefit being located nearby), it's really about:

-Serving the Airport City development, enabling business growth in this area, and
-Performing the current function of Stockport/Macclesfield/Wilmslow etc., as a 'South Manchester Parkway'

I recall that the provision of a station is subject to seperate 3rd party funding (based on the business benefits that would be accrued)

So it is even worse. Instead of its primary purpose being to serve something that exists, like a city with a population. It is there to serve a business park that doesn't exist yet. What is wrong with Carrington business park. Why does it not deserve a HS station of it's own. At least that would be on roughly the best right alignment into Manchester City centre.

Maccelsfield is already getting it's own dedicated HS2 service, as Stockport probably will. So we are talking about the people of Knutsford, Wilmslow and Alderley Edge who I am sure would be equally at ease getting the Chaufer to drop them off at a Station near Broomedge as they at Davenport Green

 

[Altfish]

So it is even worse. Instead of its primary purpose being to serve something that exists, like a city with a population. It is there to serve a business park that doesn't exist yet. What is wrong with Carrington business park. Why does it not deserve a HS station of it's own. At least that would be on roughly the best right alignment into Manchester City centre.

Maccelsfield is already getting it's own dedicated HS2 service, as Stockport probably will. So we are talking about the people of Knutsford, Wilmslow and Alderley Edge who I am sure would be equally at ease getting the Chaufer to drop them off at a Station near Broomedge as they at Davenport Green

Good grief! What a post.
Stockport in particular and Wilmslow and Macclesfield are very popular places to join Virgin Trains, access is easier than fighting your way into Piccadilly, parking is cheaper. The fact that these people may be better off is just sour grapes. They are customers!

 

[notlob.divad]

Like it or not, residents of Tatton are likely to be a key market for HS2.

Thank you for confirming who the Taxpayers of the UK are building HS2 for. I wonder how the voters of Grimsby, Millom and Fleetwood would react to HS2 if this was the publicised sales pitch.

 

[notlob.divad]

Good grief! What a post.
Stockport in particular and Wilmslow and Macclesfield are very popular places to join Virgin Trains, access is easier than fighting your way into Piccadilly, parking is cheaper. The fact that these people may be better off is just sour grapes. They are customers!

No it's about spending vast sums of Taxpayers money to build a mass transportation system for the benefit of the masses rather than for a minority.

 

[Altfish]

No it's about spending vast sums of Taxpayers money to build a mass transportation system for the benefit of the masses rather than for a minority.

Stop twisting my words. If the trains are full, it is serving the masses, no matter their social economic status.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although that would provide lots of extra capacity over that stretch where would those trains go?

The south WCML - freight and improved commuter services south of Northampton, improved Trent Valley local services, and improved resilience. Those gains are the primary purpose of HS2.

 

[B&I]

Manchester "Airport" station isn't really about serving Manchester Airport (though it is a side benefit being located nearby), it's really about:

-Serving the Airport City development, enabling business growth in this area, and
-Performing the current function of Stockport/Macclesfield/Wilmslow etc., as a 'South Manchester Parkway'

I recall that the provision of a station is subject to seperate 3rd party funding (based on the business benefits that would be accrued)

The third party funding is not really the issue. Liverpool offered to fubd its own branch and was rebuffed. The journey via the airport involves such a dog leg for east-west high speed trains that central Manchester to Lime Street by 'NPR' is likely to be a couole of minutes faster (if it's faster at all) than the TPE Lime St-Victoria service was up until May. And so, we have a situation where the needa of Tatton (population 65,000), couples with Manchester Airport Group's desire to build an overgrown business park, are considered more important than those of a city region of over 1.5 million.

 

[B&I]

You are an angry man.
Like it or not, residents of Tatton are likely to be a key market for HS2. If you live in Knutsford or Macclesfield, getting to Crewe by rail is a non-starter

People are allowed to disagree with you without it being branded some.flaw in their character. This is another respect in which you'll find this country differs from the PRC.

As discussed above, Macclesfield is getting its own HS2 service, so we can discount it from.the discussion.

In the absence of a re-opened Northwich-Middlewich-Sandbach line (a sensible proposal which I support), how do people from Knutsford currently access long-distance services going south ? They'll be no worse off than they currently are if there is a field west of Manchester Airport which is not forever part of HS2.

In either case, residents of both these places would have to drive to reach not-Manchester-Airport-station anyway.

Once again, it seems that the needs of a collection of small, if self-important, towns in the Manchester commuter belt are considered more important than those of a city region of 1.5 million plus. What was I saying before about the 'do you know who I am ?' mentality ?

 

[The Ham]

The south WCML - freight and improved commuter services south of Northampton, improved Trent Valley local services, and improved resilience. Those gains are the primary purpose of HS2.

I understand that HS2 provides all that, the question was related to a four track HS line between London and Rugby, how much extra usable capacity would be created (bearing in mind that the suggestion was for nothing North of Rugby)?

 

[B&I]

Good grief! What a post.
Stockport in particular and Wilmslow and Macclesfield are very popular places to join Virgin Trains, access is easier than fighting your way into Piccadilly, parking is cheaper. The fact that these people may be better off is just sour grapes. They are customers!

It is easy to accuse other people of sour grapes when everything is going your way.

It is not sour grapes to point out that a small area of Cheshire, which happens to fall.largely within the former constituency of one of HS2's main proponents, is receiving more investment from HS2 than much larger, and frankly more important places.

Btw are your seriously putting forward the needs of the people of Stockport as a justification for Tatton Parkway station ? How exactly are most of its residents going to access the new location ? From Mrs B&I's bijou residence in the east of the borough, for example, I could reach Piccadilly twice by train in the time it would take to drive to a field west of Manchester Airport.

 

[B&I]

The south WCML - freight and improved commuter services south of Northampton, improved Trent Valley local services, and improved resilience. Those gains are the primary purpose of HS2.

I wish HS2's other proponents would admit this, rather than making uo fairy stories about economic rebalancing. You're by far the most realistic poster on here when it comea to what it's designed to do, and what it will.

 

[B&I]

I understand that HS2 provides all that, the question was related to a four track HS line between London and Rugby, how much extra usable capacity would be created (bearing in mind that the suggestion was for nothing North of Rugby)?

Quite a lot, if the line split at that point with spurs to the West Midlands, Trent Valley and East Midlands

 

[Ianno87]

The third party funding is not really the issue. Liverpool offered to fubd its own branch and was rebuffed.

Did it?

How can it offer to fund something that hasn't been designed yet and thus have no idea how many £bns it will cost, even ballpark? A bit more than the cost range of a simple station....

 

[Ianno87]

And so, we have a situation where the needa of Tatton (population 65,000), couples with Manchester Airport Group's desire to build an overgrown business park, are considered more important than those of a city region of over 1.5 million.

Because Manchester Airport will benefit a vaste swathe of south Manchester/north east Cheshire, not just Tatton <Eyes roll emoticon>

And that 'business park' will create many, many jobs. Potentially accessible to the good residents of Liverpool in a mere 20-odd minutes by way of NPR.

 

[notlob.divad]

Because Manchester Airport will benefit a vaste swathe of south Manchester/north east Cheshire, not just Tatton <Eyes roll emoticon>

and disbenefits the entirity of Merseyside, Warrington and Halton

And that 'business park' will create many, many jobs. Potentially accessible to the good residents of Liverpool in a mere 20-odd minutes by way of NPR.

and could be built anywhere, ie Carrington, around West Float, Central Docks, Between Ardwick and Ashbury where it would be built on post industrial waste land rather than destroying more of South Manchester's Greenbelt.

 

[B&I]

Did it?

How can it offer to fund something that hasn't been designed yet and thus have no idea how many £bns it will cost, even ballpark? A bit more than the cost range of a simple station....

I'm sure DafT could have enteted into discussions, if that had been the issue

 

[notlob.divad]

Stop twisting my words. If the trains are full, it is serving the masses, no matter their social economic status.

Once you stop twisting my words.

Quite simply a parkway accessed from Junction 8 of the M56, would be as beneficial to the people of the Wilmslow Triangle as one accessed from Junction 5 (More so when you consider Macclesfield will be getting it's own direct service). The business park could easily be located on a better - derelict site where less environmental damage would be done and is closer to a supply of labour. The Airport itself is already served by a better located station with services from its natural catchment area that are poorly utilised.

At the same time, the designed alignment from the HS2 trunk line to the centre of Manchester is suboptimal for both the London - Manchester journey time and any future duel use as NPR or otherwise. It fails to deliver Manchester with the desperatly needed cross city capacity or western facing teriminal capacity, instead replicating what the city already has. It leaves trains facing in entirely the wrong direction hindering future expansion of a high speed network resulting in the potential for a further expensive 180 degree U turned tunnel under Manchester city centre.

If you were to task somebody with coming up with the worst possible way of serving the North West's rail needs with High speed rail. they would struggle to come up with something as bad as the current HS2 design north of Crewe.

 

[B&I]

Because Manchester Airport will benefit a vaste swathe of south Manchester/north east Cheshire, not just Tatton <Eyes roll emoticon>

And that 'business park' will create many, many jobs. Potentially accessible to the good residents of Liverpool in a mere 20-odd minutes by way of NPR.

Except a station with minimal public transport access, in an area of already painful traffic congestion, will.not actually seeve many of them. I suspect you'll find that the vast majority will still board at Piccadilly. After all, the anti-Liverpool faction are always on about how much greater Piccadilly's catchment area is, compared to Lime Street.

Yeah, I'm sure they'll get to a field west of Manchester Airport in just 20 minutes via a non-existant hogh speed line. Of course, they might prefer to have jobs closer than 35.miles away.

I notice that you do not deny that a major reason for the design of HS2 phase 2b, and consequently 'NPR' (if it ever gets built) is to serve a business park on a greenfield location. Can you name any other examples of HS2 being designed to serve similar locations, or any other high speed line, anywhere im the world, which has been designed to serve a business park ?

 

[B&I]

Once you stop twisting my words.

Quite simply a parkway accessed from Junction 8 of the M56, would be as beneficial to the people of the Wilmslow Triangle as one accessed from Junction 5 (More so when you consider Macclesfield will be getting it's own direct service). The business park could easily be located on a better - derelict site where less environmental damage would be done and is closer to a supply of labour. The Airport itself is already served by a better located station with services from its natural catchment area that are poorly utilised.

At the same time, the designed alignment from the HS2 trunk line to the centre of Manchester is suboptimal for both the London - Manchester journey time and any future duel use as NPR or otherwise. It fails to deliver Manchester with the desperatly needed cross city capacity or western facing teriminal capacity, instead replicating what the city already has. It leaves trains facing in entirely the wrong direction hindering future expansion of a high speed network resulting in the potential for a further expensive 180 degree U turned tunnel under Manchester city centre.

If you were to task somebody with coming up with the worst possible way of serving the North West's rail needs with High speed rail. they would struggle to come up with something as bad as the current HS2 design north of Crewe.

Notice how, every time you mention the 'NPR' boomerang undee.Manchester City Centre, the advocates of fiscal prudence, cost-effective design and no spending whatsoever on Liverpool suddenly run out of justifications

 

[notlob.divad]

Did it?

How can it offer to fund something that hasn't been designed yet and thus have no idea how many £bns it will cost, even ballpark? A bit more than the cost range of a simple station....

Respublica costed the Liverpool HS2 link at 'no more than 3 billion GBP' Liverpool as a city firstly offered to pay the first 2 billion.

I cannot believe there are people commenting on this thread, on a rail forum who have not read the 20mm report, the Respublica report or HS2s own report each of which forecasts economic damage to the Liverpool City region relative to other areas as a result of current HS2 plans.

 

[PR1Berske]

Which specific town I refer to as my home town is irrelevent. But there are a multitude of towns across the North, be it Halifax, Burnley, Rochdale or Scunthorpe, whos residents will suffer the most from this project, seeing little if any benefit whislt still contributing to the cost. The economies of these places, already decimated by years of de-industrialisation are slowly finding a 2nd life as dormitary towns for the nearby cities. Once HS2 turns those cities into London dormitaries with some additional call centres and back office functions, what little economic life remains in the towns will go.


That doesn't mean we should build the bad bits as well, just because a section of it is nessesary. As you say, we have one shot at doing this, so lets get it right. Design the whole network as a network and build the bits that are most crucial. A Line from London to the North West via Birmingham, A line from Liverpool to the North East (and on to Scotland) via the 'Northern Belt cities'. A Line from Leeds to the South West (Bristol) via Birmingham. Then look at how best to link them all together, remembering the Golden rule that a 5 minute detour on a 30 mile journey, has significantly bigger impact than a 5 minute detour on a 210 mile journey.

But trust me, when you suggest that Burnley won't benefit from HS2, as you say, supporters will mostly sneer and scoff. Once it gets to Birmingham, and possibly stops there for years, there will be little benefits to post-industrial Northern towns. Liverpool might have inbuilt resilience, being of its size and stature. Accrington will probably not.

And few HS2 supporters acknowledge this.

 

[The Planner]

But trust me, when you suggest that Burnley won't benefit from HS2, as you say, supporters will mostly sneer and scoff. Once it gets to Birmingham, and possibly stops there for years, there will be little benefits to post-industrial Northern towns. Liverpool might have inbuilt resilience, being of its size and stature. Accrington will probably not.

And few HS2 supporters acknowledge this.

So its only going to Birmingham in phase 1? Not anywhere further? Or are you ignoring that bit?

 

[hwl]

So its only going to Birmingham in phase 1? Not anywhere further? Or are you ignoring that bit?

Plenty of ignoring bits going on on this thread

 

[mmh]

Some might go via Wigan, but I don't think many would pick that route unless it much cheaper, not with the Merseyrail frequency in Liverpool . If you get a Northern cancelled that's it your stuffed, it's just a more reliable route via Lime Street. Just my opinion, plus anecdotal reference from a mate I have who lives over there.

People buying tickets online are more likely to go via Wigan, as it'll be shown as the quickest route. Depending on which journey planner used, you can be shown either Southport-South Parkway-Crewe-London or Southport-Central-Lime St-London, e.g. the National Rail site will show via Lime St, but the Transpennine Express site won't. A bit bonkers.

 

[PR1Berske]

So its only going to Birmingham in phase 1? Not anywhere further? Or are you ignoring that bit?

HS2 is only designed to connect London with Birmingham. Nothing else is certain or guaranteed.

 

[hwl]

HS2 is only designed to connect London with Birmingham. Nothing else is certain or guaranteed.

What about the WCML connection near Lichfield as part of phase 1?

 

[The Ham]

In which case the KPMG report, which sets out numerous scenarios for economic imoact based on business sensitivity, does not involve stress testing.

I know that you are desperate to minimise the impact of the KPMG report, but the more time you spend on this the less convincing it becomes.

The stress test is not a worse case scenario for the simple reason that it assumes that no other costs change other than transport costs, which is the test which results in Liverpool being negatively impacted, where the costs are modelled as doubling.

That would be like saying the day after HS2 opening that petrol costs double from £1.35 to £2.70 for businesses. Under that scenario Liverpool's economy would suffer a hit of only -£50 million.

In that scenario the reality for the whole of the UK would be that everyone would suffer as lots of people wouldn't be able to afford to get to and from work.

It is a fair test, as it ensures that the assumptions made for travel costs are robust.

I have never tried to minimise the impact of the report, I've said that those using the -£50 million as an argument for not building HS2 are not understanding what the figures are there for.

 

[B&I]

The stress test is not a worse case scenario for the simple reason that it assumes that no other costs change other than transport costs, which is the test which results in Liverpool being negatively impacted, where the costs are modelled as doubling.

That would be like saying the day after HS2 opening that petrol costs double from £1.35 to £2.70 for businesses. Under that scenario Liverpool's economy would suffer a hit of only -£50 million.

In that scenario the reality for the whole of the UK would be that everyone would suffer as lots of people wouldn't be able to afford to get to and from work.

It is a fair test, as it ensures that the assumptions made for travel costs are robust.

I have never tried to minimise the impact of the report, I've said that those using the -£50 million as an argument for not building HS2 are not understanding what the figures are there for.

So [drum roll] if that's the case [drum roll], why is Liverpool the only core city which sufffers economic shrinkage when the tests are applied ?

I really really do think you need to move off this subject now.

 

[The Ham]

Once you stop twisting my words.

Quite simply a parkway accessed from Junction 8 of the M56, would be as beneficial to the people of the Wilmslow Triangle as one accessed from Junction 5 (More so when you consider Macclesfield will be getting it's own direct service). The business park could easily be located on a better - derelict site where less environmental damage would be done and is closer to a supply of labour. The Airport itself is already served by a better located station with services from its natural catchment area that are poorly utilised.

At the same time, the designed alignment from the HS2 trunk line to the centre of Manchester is suboptimal for both the London - Manchester journey time and any future duel use as NPR or otherwise. It fails to deliver Manchester with the desperatly needed cross city capacity or western facing teriminal capacity, instead replicating what the city already has. It leaves trains facing in entirely the wrong direction hindering future expansion of a high speed network resulting in the potential for a further expensive 180 degree U turned tunnel under Manchester city centre.

If you were to task somebody with coming up with the worst possible way of serving the North West's rail needs with High speed rail. they would struggle to come up with something as bad as the current HS2 design north of Crewe.

There's a difference between having HS2 not being the best route into Manchester and HS2 not being built at all.

I have never said that HS2 is perfect, likewise it's not uncommon for government to spend money which results in them having to spend more to get the best results of future projects.

However there's a problem, a lot of those who oppose HS2 don't want it built at all. As such if a group who don't like a specific alignment then align with groups who oppose the who project then there's a risk that nothing happens. As such no benefits are obtained rather than some benefits.

There's an argument that if HS2 is built on a bad alignment so that NPR had to take a different route then the result is three HS lines in Manchester, providing extra capacity over if only two routes were built. Yes there would be extra costs, however chances are these would be offset by the extra benefits.

On a related note NR appear to prefer NPR over Trans Pennie upgrades.

 

[6Gman]

So its only going to Birmingham in phase 1? Not anywhere further? Or are you ignoring that bit?

Why not? He usually does ...