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Ticket but on alternative route due to late train

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Gareth Marston

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Thanks again the amount was £277.90 and I sat in first class
The prosecution is based on section 5(3)(a) in that I am accused of intending paying only if asked.
My case would therefore seem to rest on whether my conversation seeking the inspectors agreement to whether my ticket was valid was an offer or not?
My recollection is that I received acceptance that my ticket was valid and that if asked to pay I would have willingly done so. I took the reporting of the incident to be an administrative function
I have requested a breakdown but received an email saying this will take up to 28 days after I submit a signed request.

Not only was your standard ticket invalid for that route/train but you sat in First Class which has compounded things. What on earth possessed you to do that?

I can see why saying the man on the platform said it would be OK - drew the reaction it did, sorry to say. Wrong route/invalid ticket/ wrong class and a story about verbal permission sounds very much like a try on I'm afraid.

Given the evidence you've supplied so far I'm struggling to see how any advice other than pay up and learn from it would be of any use to you. We still haven't been able to verify the "missed connection" at Newport as you've not supplied us dates/ times of trans involved.
 
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jumble

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I wrote back explaining the situation and asking they reply in 21 days or I would consider the matted closed, 25 days later I get a letter saying the will settle for £250 on this special occasion if I accepted a written warning !

I believe it was a big mistake for you to threaten to close the matter as the law does not allow you to do so.
I would pay up and consider the attitude test for next time

Jumble
 

Fawkes Cat

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It's perhaps worth beginning to pull together why the consensus here is that the OP isn't in a strong position.

If I have understood things correctly, you booked an 'Advance' ticket from Redland to Ruabon. I am assuming that by 'Advance' ticket you don't just mean one that you bought a while before travelling, but one as described here (the National Rail website description of an Advance ticket). As that page says, the great thing about those tickets is that

Advance fares are Single (one-way) tickets offering great value for money on many longer distance journeys.

but the big drawback of them is that

Advance fares are valid only on the date and train shown on the ticket and seat reservation and are non-refundable.

As you have explained, your journey began to go wrong at Temple Meads. You could see that a connection that you had expected to make at Newport was impossible. So does this mean that the railways would have expected you to get another ticket? No: the railways do understand that connections sometimes don't work, so you would have been entitled to take the next train by the same operator on the same route as the train you were booked to take. (Someone will be along in a minute to point out that this is a very brief summary of the actual rules and there is more to it than this, but I think it's good enough for the moment.)

What actually happened at Temple Meads? You consulted a member of staff on the platform:
3 Platform staff advice to my question “ Can I get to Ruabon via Birmingham by boarding that train as the train to Newport is delayed “ was “ Yes”

Assuming that this is a precise account of what you asked and the answer you received, then the answer was correct, but unhelpful, in that what you actually needed to know was 'could you get to Ruabon via Birmingham using the ticket that you held?' The answer to that question would have been 'no' because, as I've said above, Advance tickets are only valid on the 'date and train shown on the ticket'.

This is where you fell foul of the rules. Once you left Temple Meads towards Birmingham, you didn't have a valid ticket for the journey that you were making. So the on-train staff were within their rights to require you to get the right sort of ticket to cover your journey.

By the letter of the rules, you are not in a strong position. You were making a journey without having paid for that journey. The railways understandably disapprove of fare evasion and so there are laws that allow the railways to take action that will strongly discourage people from travelling for free more than once. If you decline the railways' current offer to settle for the cost of a ticket plus their investigation costs they have the option of taking you to court. Courts, of course, are staffed by people who might have sympathy for your plight - but these people are also required to uphold the law and may decide that the law takes priority over your view that you have not been fairly treated.

The quick way to bring things to an end is to pay the amount you have been asked for, and write it off to experience. You may be able to get a better result by taking matters forward, but be aware that the next stage is court, and that if you lose there you may lose more heavily than by paying up now.
 

najaB

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It's perhaps worth beginning to pull together why the consensus here is that the OP isn't in a strong position...
This is a good summary of the facts as presented so far, and I don't disagree with your conclusion.
 

Starmill

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I have entered travel at Redland and simply showed I have a ticket to collect at BRI and the guard has passed me through on numerous (20 + ) occasions
Did you actually have a ticket from Redland to Ruabon then? Or did you have a separate ticket from Redland to Bristol Temple Meads?

What time train were you booked on, and what train(s) did you actually use?

I'm concerned that, while many fairly clear questions have been asked, there are no answers to them.
 

Puffing Devil

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Great summary. I would amend the following line

Courts, of course, are staffed by people who might have sympathy for your plight - but these people are also required to uphold the law and may decide be bound to rule that the law takes priority over your view that you have not been fairly treated.
 

bb21

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Did you actually have a ticket from Redland to Ruabon then? Or did you have a separate ticket from Redland to Bristol Temple Meads?

What time train were you booked on, and what train(s) did you actually use?

I'm concerned that, while many fairly clear questions have been asked, there are no answers to them.
I think the OP made it clear that his ticket was Redland - Ruabon (Post 16), which along the Marches line, has no First Class Advance fare.

What concerns me now mainly is that the OP was seemingly caught travelling in First Class with a Standard Class Advance fare which was invalid for the route taken anyway.
 

furlong

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And we still dont know the actual delay/connection, the amount of time at Bristol and where and when the decision to take the alternative train was made and any platforms involved and anything else said to the inspector at the time or in the subsequent correspondence that might be considered to demonstrate an intention not to pay your fare.

I think you might have already implied you accept that the man on the platform didn't give you authorisation to travel in first class without a valid ticket, so the best you could have hoped for was to have persuaded the guard to allow you to pay the £124 fare on board (railcard-discounted first class, no facilities at origin and insufficient time at interchange).

Merely presenting an invalid ticket for inspection can sometimes be deemed sufficient in itself to demonstrate an intention not to pay the fare - context is important. The intention not to pay can be momentary and an offence can be committed at a particular point in time, irrespective of a later offer to pay - what happens later doesn't undo something that already happened.
 

Silverdale

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Assuming that this is a precise account of what you asked and the answer you received, then the answer was correct, but unhelpful, in that what you actually needed to know was 'could you get to Ruabon via Birmingham using the ticket that you held?' The answer to that question would have been 'no' because, as I've said above, Advance tickets are only valid on the 'date and train shown on the ticket'.

Maybe this is nit-picking as there are perhaps other aspects of this dispute which would support the TOC's case that this was a section 5 offence, but...

If the question was asked and the answer; "Yes" was obtained without qualification, is it actually correct? Surely the only correct answer would have been; "It depends what ticket you have".
 

najaB

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If the question was asked and the answer; "Yes" was obtained without qualification, is it actually correct? Surely the only correct answer would have been; "It depends what ticket you have
The question, as asked, was a timetable/route query and the answer given was correct. Ticketing queries should be directed to ticket office staff.
 

island

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I think the core issue here is travelling in 1st on a standard class ticket. Travelling on a roundabout route is secondary.
 

Gareth Marston

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I think the core issue here is travelling in 1st on a standard class ticket. Travelling on a roundabout route is secondary.

Even if the OP argues he was given verbal permission to travel via Birmingham by " the man on the platform" I very much doubt arguing that this included First Class is going to get them anywhere.
 

tiptoptaff

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I think the OP made it clear that his ticket was Redland - Ruabon (Post 16), which along the Marches line, has no First Class Advance fare.

What concerns me now mainly is that the OP was seemingly caught travelling in First Class with a Standard Class Advance fare which was invalid for the route taken anyway.

Does the Gerald not have a 1st Advance fare? If so it's possible that this was the intended train from Newport (not even sure it calls at Ruabon)

But of course, we don't have the details of the journey asked for up thread.
 

bb21

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Does the Gerald not have a 1st Advance fare? If so it's possible that this was the intended train from Newport (not even sure it calls at Ruabon)

But of course, we don't have the details of the journey asked for up thread.
The fare doesn't exist, but of course if the OP held a valid First Class fare for a different flow he could make a suitable reservation on Gerald.

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=RDA&dest=RUA

The OP could have been holding the walk-on First Class fare, but then I doubt he would have got in trouble with XC. (He did say though further up the thread that he had an Advance fare but it is possible that it could have been used to mean the walk-on fare bought in advance.)
 

Gareth Marston

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Unless the OP comes back and fills in the two big blanks -

  1. Details of what ticket they actually held.
  2. Date and time of travel.

There's not a lot of point to this thread staying open.
 

Clip

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And we still dont know the actual delay/connection, the amount of time at Bristol and where and when the decision to take the alternative train was made and any platforms involved and anything else said to the inspector at the time or in the subsequent correspondence that might be considered to demonstrate an intention not to pay your fare.
.

They must have had plenty of time at Bristol as thats where they picked their ticket up from
 

J H Bristol

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Hi
Advance Single Redland Ruabon depart 8:19 arrive 11:54
Thanks for all the replies. I normally travel first class an this is not available on the delightful run up the Welsh border.
It looks like I will be paying but I remain disappointed that I was not offered a fare upgrade by the inspector before being reported.
I also find the approach by TIL rude and officious given I had a ticket to complete a journey that I needed to before the next train by the same operator on the route booked.
None of this encourages me to ditch the car....
 

najaB

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It looks like I will be paying but I remain disappointed that I was not offered a fare upgrade by the inspector before being reported.
Pay before boarding, don't sit in First Class if you don't have a First Class ticket. Not difficult concepts to grasp.
 

30907

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Hi
Advance Single Redland Ruabon depart 8:19 arrive 11:54
I also find the approach by TIL rude and officious given I had a ticket to complete a journey that I needed to before the next train by the same operator on the route booked.
The next train on the route booked was due to arrive at 12.52. The only way to have got there earlier was 12.40 via Crewe and Chester - is that what you intended to do, rather than going direct from Birmingham?
 

J H Bristol

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As I recall I was anxiously awaiting the delayed service to Newport and realised there was an alternative route available . I therefore had very little time to decide my course of action and gain advice as to my options
I boarded the Birmingham train before the Newport service arrived as the delay was greater than the transfer time required to board the next train.
I am not sure is any if that helps my case ?
 

JN114

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I am not sure is any if that helps my case ?

No bearing whatsoever. You broke the (very strict) terms of your heavily discounted ticket. You compounded the issue by sitting in First Class with a Standard Class ticket.

You were then asked to purchase the correct ticket for the journey you were making. As this was on board, the full un-discounted fare is due, and as you elected to sit yourself in First Class the full in-discounted First Class fare becomes due.
 

Haywain

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explained to the inspector without being given the option to pay any fare
When a ticket inspection took place, what was said? I am guessing that you presented the standard class Advance ticket and the inspector informed you that it wasn't valid, but I struggle to get past your claim that there was no option to pay. In most cases normal procedure would be to inform the passenger that the ticket is not valid and advise how much needs to be paid to deal with the matter. The taking of details etc results from a refusal to pay.
 

J H Bristol

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I don’t feel I was offered an option to pay for an upgraded ticket and presumably instructed to claim my fare back from GWR for the late service if that’s possible. The whole exchange was of a friendly nature and I genuinely expected the details were taken fir a fare transfer by the two companies

If I had been given that option I would definitely not be on this forum.

Thanks for everybody’s input On this matter
 

najaB

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I don’t feel I was offered an option to pay for an upgraded ticket and presumably instructed to claim my fare back from GWR for the late service if that’s possible.
Forgive me if this comes across as harsh, but I really don't think you have yet accepted that you were totally in the wrong here. You were in First Class with a Standard Class ticket, that wasn't even a valid on that train.

You had no right to just pay an upgrade. Why would anyone pay the correct fare before boarding for the service they are using? Just pay a cheap fare and 'upgrade' if there's a ticket check!
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Forgive me if this comes across as harsh, but I really don't think you have yet accepted that you were totally in the wrong here. You were in First Class with a Standard Class ticket, that wasn't even a valid on that train.

You had no right to just pay an upgrade. Why would anyone pay the correct fare before boarding for the service they are using? Just pay a cheap fare and 'upgrade' if there's a ticket check!
That is the way it works in Scotland - the only "penalty" for buying on board is a queue and/or having to pay the undiscounted Anytime Single. It seems to work just fine there. That doesn't change the fact that this all happened in England/Wales and so the completely different application of the laws seen here applies.
 

furlong

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I don’t feel I was offered an option to pay for an upgraded ticket

Did you say something pro-active like "I need to buy a first class ticket, please, because the train I was going to take is delayed and would make me an hour late so I've made a last-minute decision to take this slower route so I can travel in more comfort as it'll get me there at about the same time as my original service would now. Here's my original ticket." ?

Or just show the existing ticket for inspection and wait for the reaction?
 

najaB

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That is the way it works in Scotland - the only "penalty" for buying on board is a queue and/or having to pay the undiscounted Anytime Single.
Trust me, ScotRail would love more powers but the law doesn't allow it as they do have some serial offenders.
 
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