Ticket but on alternative route due to late train

[J H Bristol]

Hi All, I was intending, with ticket in hand ,travelling from Bristol TM to Ruabon with a change in Newport.
The train to Newport was 11 minutes late with a 9 minute window so I boarded the Birmingham train to change at New St and pick up the Hollyhead train stopping at Ruabon.
Having checked with the platform staff and explained to the inspector without being given the option to pay any fare I was asked for my details which I assumed were for some form of cross charge between rail companies. I was not made aware I had broken any law or regulation.
TIL then issue a letter threatening prosecution in a bullying and hassling way, no particular issue to me however a young person or anyone not thick skinned could be seriously stressed by the language used.
I wrote back explaining the situation and asking they reply in 21 days or I would consider the matted closed, 25 days later I get a letter saying the will settle for £250 on this special occasion if I accepted a written warning !
Any ideas how I can expose this exploitative unprincipled behaviour ?

 

[furlong]

Firstly, what are the details (origin, destination, type, class, price) of the ticket you held?

Secondly, how were you aware of the alternative route? What was said during the conversation with the platform staff and did it include any form of agreement?

Thirdly, what is the breakdown of the £250 ?

 

[Haywain]

hat are the details (origin, destination, type, class, price) of the ticket you held?

I think this is absolutely crucial information to being able to give any meaningful advice.

 

[Gareth Marston]

There's AP's set by Cross Country and aTW there's also walk ons the Any Permiiteds that are set by Cross Country there's an Anytime and an Off Peak. There's is also a cheaper via Hereford Anytime set by ATW.

Seems fairly obvious that the OP would be holding the ATW tickets not the XC ones. In which case it's a clear cut slam dunk case of not having a valid ticket. Of course the OP needs to confirm what they actually held but I'm struggling to come up with any other scenario.

If that is the case then the OP should have purchased an excess to the correct route.

We also need clsrification on where they were approached by TIL.

 

[30907]

I assume the OP's first contact with TIL was their request for his/her version of events, to which s/he sent a reply?

 

[yorkie]

Hi All, I was intending, with ticket in hand ,travelling from Bristol TM to Ruabon with a change in Newport.
The train to Newport was 11 minutes late with a 9 minute window so I boarded the Birmingham train to change at New St and pick up the Hollyhead train stopping at Ruabon.
Having checked with the platform staff and explained to the inspector without being given the option to pay any fare I was asked for my details which I assumed were for some form of cross charge between rail companies. I was not made aware I had broken any law or regulation.
TIL then issue a letter threatening prosecution in a bullying and hassling way, no particular issue to me however a young person or anyone not thick skinned could be seriously stressed by the language used.
I wrote back explaining the situation and asking they reply in 21 days or I would consider the matted closed, 25 days later I get a letter saying the will settle for £250 on this special occasion if I accepted a written warning !
Any ideas how I can expose this exploitative unprincipled behaviour ?

Can you either upload a photo of the ticket held, or obtain the information from your booking confirmation or type up the details here?

Was it any of these? http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=BRI&dest=RUA

We could do with knowing as much information as possible such as
Ticket type (e.g. Off Peak Return, Anytime Return)
Route (e.g. via Hereford, Any Permitted, etc)
Price
Railcard held (if applicable)

Where exactly did your encounter with the ticket inspector take place, what exactly was said?

 

[bb21]

Please refrain from speculation in order to keep the thread on topic pending the OP's clarification.

 

[J H Bristol]

Thanks to all for replies
The ticket is Advance Single and I suspect through Hereford which you do not pass through via New St.
Whilst that may be technically an infringement surely the inspector pre Cheltenham should have made my options clear including “please pay a full fare and then claim “ rather than the “ no problem but give me your details so we can prosecute aporoach “

1 To add further detail.
2 Senior Rail Card.
3 Platform staff advice to my question “ Can I get to Ruabon via Birmingham by boarding that train as the train to Newport is delayed “ was “ Yes”

 

[yorkie]

Who was the retailer (ie. place of purchase)?

 

[furlong]

3 Platform staff advice to my question “ Can I get to Ruabon via Birmingham by boarding that train as the train to Newport is delayed “ was “ Yes”

Did you show that member of staff your ticket?

(Sorry we're asking so many questions, but the way the railway industry works there is a large mixture of law, rules and guidelines involved here, and it's best if we can avoid confusing you by telling you about things that aren't applicable to your situation.)

 

[J H Bristol]

The ticket was purchased on line at Trainline and I collected the ticket at Bristol Temple Meads (BRI) I did not show it to the platform staff but did show it to the inspector
Whilst you guys are experienced in the rules I am amazed anyone would threaten court action in this instance.
Whilst accepting I may have technically reached the rules I would have been happy to simply use the original service

 

[furlong]

And again, what does it say about how the £250 has been calculated? Or nothing? Is it exactly 250 or have you rounded that up from another figure, if so what exactly?

Whilst you guys are experienced in the rules I am amazed anyone would threaten court action in this instance.
Whilst accepting I may have technically reached the rules I would have been happy to simply use the original service

They are private companies now with strong laws on their side and the bodies charged with looking after the interests of passengers often preferring not to admit to what's happening on the ground.

The ticket is Advance Single and I suspect through Hereford which you do not pass through via New St.

What was the price? Did it say something like "AP GWR/ATW &CONN" on it? And I don't think you've told us yet where you encountered the problem (and, if you know, which company's trains you used - or the day/time so we can look this up in the timetable).

 

[J H Bristol]

The exact figure is not £250 but slightly more I will request a breakdown.
As for private companies using the law I must be missing something or naive in my thinking that we are being encouraged to use public transport

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The exact figure is not £250 but slightly more I will request a breakdown.
As for private companies using the law I must be missing something or naive in my thinking that we are being encouraged to use public transport

The two are not mutually incompatible! We are encouraged to use public transport. But if we make an honest mistake - even once - it is easy for the public transport operators (themselves private companies) to give us a lot of hassle very quickly.

 

[furlong]

And please confirm your rail journey began at Bristol. (You didn't get there on a local connecting train service.)

 

[J H Bristol]

I am not sure why it makes a difference but my ticket was Redland Ruabon via BRI and Hereford.

 

[furlong]

Every detail is important because the rules and exemptions are so complex!

Just guessing, but is it £250.60 they are asking for?

Now you say it's from Redland, is it correct that there is no ticket office there and still no ticket machines?

How long was the connection at Bristol?

This is very important because the most common byelaw the train companies use says:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.
....
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey;

They use other laws too.

 

[Starmill]

What was the route shown on the ticket?
Did you use any other tickets for your journey?

 

[Haywain]

What was the route shown on the ticket?
Did you use any other tickets for your journey?

Advance tickets don't, in many cases, show the route.

 

[najaB]

The train to Newport was 11 minutes late with a 9 minute window

To save anyone else looking, Newport has a 5 minute minimum connection time.

 

[J H Bristol]

The amount is £277.?? And the ticket did not show the route just destinations

 

[furlong]

Were you travelling standard class or first class (on the train you actually used)?

And you showed your railcard and it was not past its expiry date?

I'm still struggling to understand why this figure of £277 is so high. Did you respond to all the letters they sent you promptly, so that they haven't tried to add on "admin" charges?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Advance tickets don't, in many cases, show the route.

Isn't part of the journey always on a designated train? That defines the route at least in part. I agree the &connections bit could cover a variety of routes.

(I am assuming Advance in the ticket type meaning rather than just a ticket bought before travel.)

 

[J H Bristol]

I have entered travel at Redland and simply showed I have a ticket to collect at BRI and the guard has passed me through on numerous (20 + ) occasions

 

[30907]

Now you say it's from Redland, is it correct that there is no ticket office there and still no ticket machines.

Not sure this is particularly relevant, as the OP had collected a valid Advance ticket as below, and the issue arose after Bristol.

I am not sure why it makes a difference but my ticket was Redland Ruabon via BRI and Hereford.

Which means that it was ONLY valid for travel on that route and (for part of the journey, presumably Newport onwards) on a specific train.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Isn't part of the journey always on a designated train? That defines the route at least in part. I agree the &connections bit could cover a variety of routes.

(I am assuming Advance in the ticket type meaning rather than just a ticket bought before travel.)

The ticket would have shown all Class 1 reservable trains booked on with departure times from at least Newport to Ruabon or Newport to Shrewsbury and then Shrewsbury to Ruabon. It's possible to do Redland to Newport avoiding Class 1 reservable.

 

[island]

Not sure this is particularly relevant, as the OP had collected a valid Advance ticket as below, and the issue arose after Bristol.

It’s extremely relevant.

If the OP began his journey at a station with no ticketing facilities, he cannot be guilty of a byelaw 18 offence. Doesn’t matter how many times he changed trains, used the wrong train, went off route, or anything else. No ticketing facilities at the first station of the journey = no byelaw 18 offence. End of.

 

[J H Bristol]

Thanks again the amount was £277.90 and I sat in first class
The prosecution is based on section 5(3)(a) in that I am accused of intending paying only if asked.
My case would therefore seem to rest on whether my conversation seeking the inspectors agreement to whether my ticket was valid was an offer or not?
My recollection is that I received acceptance that my ticket was valid and that if asked to pay I would have willingly done so. I took the reporting of the incident to be an administrative function
I have requested a breakdown but received an email saying this will take up to 28 days after I submit a signed request.

 

[island]

Did you have a 1st class ticket?

 

[furlong]

Well the first class single is £187.90, and £277.90 = £187.90 + £90 so that looks like a full fare first class single plus costs of £90 (which is about normal for what they ask for in costs).