East Midlands Franchise 2019-

[Bletchleyite]

It's wading into the "what First Class should offer" discussion but the difference between First and Standard on this Intercity route is a different seat cover.

No, it's not. There is also one fewer seat across the width of the train (2+1 instead of 2+2) and more legroom. For me, a single seat is the biggest benefit of 1st, allowing privacy and the benefits of both a window and an aisle. I don't give a stuff about a fiver's worth of tea.

 

[yorksrob]

No, it's not. There is also one fewer seat across the width of the train (2+1 instead of 2+2) and more legroom. For me, a single seat is the biggest benefit of 1st, allowing privacy and the benefits of both a window and an aisle. I don't give a stuff about a fiver's worth of tea.

Yes, this post is spot on !

 

[route101]

MML & now EMT were not required to run London to Leeds all day. The service is run in the margins to get HSTs on and off their depot, operating in passenger service is a bonus.

Leeds is not mentioned in the 2018 ITT train service requirements either.

Thats something i thought would be an idea running hourly to Leeds , must be a benefit in not doing so

 

[swt_passenger]

Thats something i thought would be an idea running hourly to Leeds , must be a benefit in not doing so

Depending on exact timings and required turn round times running to Leeds hourly would potentially require two extra trains in the long distance fleet. So the question would be do DfT see two fewer as a benefit...

 

[londonmidland]

Not been a brilliant day on the LIV - NRW route. A few examples:

- 1R54 15:48 Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street terminated at Nottingham as a result of being 35L due to late inbound and congestion. Due in Nottingham at 19:10
- Train restarts at Nottingham as 1Z54 18:47 Nottingham to Liverpool Lime Street. Don’t know if they held it for passengers off 1R54.
- 1R98 1457 Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street 30L departure from Sheffield.
- 1L15 1652 Liverpool Lime Street to Nottingham 25L departure from Sheffield.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Not been a brilliant day on the LIV - NRW route. A few examples:

- 1R54 15:48 Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street terminated at Nottingham as a result of being 35L due to late inbound and congestion. Due in Nottingham at 19:10
- Train restarts at Nottingham as 1Z54 18:47 Nottingham to Liverpool Lime Street. Don’t know if they held it for passengers off 1R54.
- 1R98 1457 Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street 30L departure from Sheffield.
- 1L15 1652 Liverpool Lime Street to Nottingham 25L departure from Sheffield.

And the implications for the new franchise are...?
Presumably operations around Nottingham and Trent somewhat perturbed at the moment by Derby re-modelling and Whitacre derailment. I also heard an announcement about a failed train earlier today. Not really strategic planning stuff.

 

[Killingworth]

Not been a brilliant day on the LIV - NRW route. A few examples:

- 1R54 15:48 Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street terminated at Nottingham as a result of being 35L due to late inbound and congestion. Due in Nottingham at 19:10
- Train restarts at Nottingham as 1Z54 18:47 Nottingham to Liverpool Lime Street. Don’t know if they held it for passengers off 1R54.
- 1R98 1457 Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street 30L departure from Sheffield.
- 1L15 1652 Liverpool Lime Street to Nottingham 25L departure from Sheffield.

Today is not typical of delays on the eastern section of the route, but delays on the Sheffield-Liverpool section are so routine as to be normal. Knock on from the east compounds what is already a dire situation. Whole route reliability is heavily impacted wherever it comes into conflict with other routes and Manchester is by far the greatest bottleneck.

One missed path soon impacts on many others as a giant ripple spreads around the country. That throws out rebounding ripples and by the end of the day delays are at their worst. It all calms down overnight, then the next day it all starts again.

Not enough track, too few diversionary routes, outdated signalling, overcrowded platforms, impractical doors for loading, too little luggage space, confused passengers. Result, on the central SHF-MAN section a journey that in theory should be possible in 50 minutes or less is currently taking on average a full hour. It's a minor miracle so many on this service do arrive within 5 minutes.

 

[kevjs]

It's a minor miracle so many on this service do arrive within 5 minutes.

It seems better than the Central City Link days at least - an overloaded Turbostar which was only ever arrived at the right time was when it was an hour late (so in the following slot), nearly always having to climb over suitcases to get on or off at the time too. Surprised how reliable it's been in recent years TBH (I do only use a handful of times a year), just wish it would get across the Pennines without losing 10 minutes every time.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

St Pancras until the rebuild was 6 Platforms with enough room for 8 if you was to remove the road on the middle of the station. It was a mistake not adding 6 platforms to the new station. But yes there is just 4 platforms

but remember, before Thameslink those 6 platforms also had to also accomodate the local trains to St Albans, Luton and Bedford. At the time that it was rebuilt {or more correctly moved so that the original stn could be converted for the Eurostar terminal} there were only about 3-4 trains per hr on the Midland Mainline... so 4 platforms were considered adequate provision.... just your normal short sightedness of British infrastructure projects!

 

[Aictos]

With regards to the daily service which starts from Melton Mowbray to London, I don't understand why it can't start back from Derby instead and use the following stopping pattern instead as it goes though these stations so why not stop there?

Derby - East Midlands Parkway - Loughborough - Barrow upon Soar - Melton Mowbray - Oakham -
Corby - Kettering - Wellingborough - St Pancras International

 

[bunnahabhain]

With regards to the daily service which starts from Melton Mowbray to London, I don't understand why it can't start back from Derby instead and use the following stopping pattern instead as it goes though these stations so why not stop there?

Derby - East Midlands Parkway - Loughborough - Barrow upon Soar - Melton Mowbray - Oakham -
Corby - Kettering - Wellingborough - St Pancras International

Barrow isn't all that busy if I'm honest, same for Sileby, it'd be a waste of fuel stopping at those two.

 

[cactustwirly]

With regards to the daily service which starts from Melton Mowbray to London, I don't understand why it can't start back from Derby instead and use the following stopping pattern instead as it goes though these stations so why not stop there?

Derby - East Midlands Parkway - Loughborough - Barrow upon Soar - Melton Mowbray - Oakham -
Corby - Kettering - Wellingborough - St Pancras International

Why the hell would you stop it at Barrow?
You would have to cross from the fasts to the slows, and Barrow is only a small village, so I don't see why it needs a London sevice?
It's much faster and more convenient to change at Leicester

 

[Aictos]

Barrow isn't all that busy if I'm honest, same for Sileby, it'd be a waste of fuel stopping at those two.

I didn't mention stopping at Sileby as to Barrow not being busy is not Melton Mowbray the same for London traffic?

 

[cactustwirly]

I didn't mention stopping at Sileby as to Barrow not being busy is not Melton Mowbray the same for London traffic?

Yes, that's why it's only 1x a day.
Tbh it's just as quick to change in Leicester tbh.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I didn't mention stopping at Sileby as to Barrow not being busy is not Melton Mowbray the same for London traffic?

The service is usually operating in Mary Celeste mode until Kettering.

 

[A0]

Define "full".
I compare to West coast which has food all day, every day (reduced at weekends), on every train.
EMT has "breakfast trains" - have no idea what is served on other "non-breakfast" trains.
On the West Coast, lunch is quite substantial with sandwiches, wraps, crisps, cakes, fruit, chocolate. EMT offer a couple of snacks.
Do EMT have full evening meals? Granted not all West Coast routes do, but many do.
Drinks are also considerably reduced - tea, coffee, juice. No fizzy drinks, no alcohol.

Euston, Paddington and Kings Cross have many platforms for the longer express trains. St Pancras has a poultry 4 in comparison. Just 4 (maybe 6 if I mis-counted)

In speed terms, yes, the line is as quick but I'd still suggest the route is closer in terms of service given (overall) to a secondary intercity route, like Norwich rather than a longer distance intercity route.

Money was found to upgrade the West Coast, Great Western is getting electrified (granted, not the entire route), yet the one that makes more sense to electrify continues to be started, then stopped, then started, now only half way.

Like it or not, the route has always been down trodden.

But some good points raised.

I really must look out for those platforms full of chickens next time I go through St P......

More seriously though a comparison with Euston is misplaced - trains from St P are serving 3 ultimate destinations - Sheffield, Nottingham and Corby. And for the Sheffield / Nottingham services the only 'significant' places en route are Leicester and Derby. (Luton & Bedford have regular TL services).

Euston on the other hand has Manchester (with Stockport and Stoke and MK en route), Liverpool (with Stafford en route), Glasgow (with Warrington, Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle en route), Holyhead (with Crewe and Chester en route) and the West Mids services covering Coventry, Birmingham and Wolverhampton AND serving MK en route.

That alone justifies Euston's scale.

The reason "money was found" to upgrade the West Coast is because some of the lineside equipment was nearing life expiry - the line south of Crewe having been electrified in the late 1950s, demand was growing at a rate which could not be sustained and, commercially, there was a threat from domestic air flights, particularly to Scotland. Add in the rolling stock was also coming up for replacement and was not suitable for higher speed running i.e. 125 mph.

Electrification, on its own, won't radically reduce the journey times from Leicester, Nottingham, Derby or Sheffield to London - the route between Leicester and Bedford is the main problem - unlike the GWML which is pretty straight. The ECML tidied up the worst of its line speed restrictions in the 1960s - long before electrification - as part of the introduction of the Deltics. A similar exercise is needed on the MML which would yield far more in reducing journey times than just wiring it will.

 

[Tomnick]

With regards to the daily service which starts from Melton Mowbray to London, I don't understand why it can't start back from Derby instead and use the following stopping pattern instead as it goes though these stations so why not stop there?

Derby - East Midlands Parkway - Loughborough - Barrow upon Soar - Melton Mowbray - Oakham -
Corby - Kettering - Wellingborough - St Pancras International

Derby, East Mids Parkway and Loughborough all have much faster through trains to London (Melton might have quicker options via Leicester but no through trains otherwise), the train doesn’t necessarily need a platform at Derby or can depart from the service platform (“platform 7”) if it’s ECS - and why Barrow (which would need it to cross to the Up Slow at Ratcliffe with a decent time penalty) and not Sileby (where it has to pass through the platform anyway)...?!

 

[atraindriver]

Derby - East Midlands Parkway - Loughborough - Barrow upon Soar - Melton Mowbray - Oakham -
Corby - Kettering - Wellingborough - St Pancras International

Do you live at Barrow or did you get mixed up with Sileby?
Anyway, it's not really relevant. The journey time via Oakham is so much slower that anybody from the Ivanhoe wanting London would go to Leicester (or in the case of Barrow possibly backtrack to Loughborough) and jump on the mainliner there.

The Ivanhoe stations could do with a better peak service to/from Leicester far more than they could do with a vanity/political train to London.
As probably was the case for Melton & Oakham, but they got a "direct" London instead to keep the local noisemakers happy; it's not actually run for the benefit of potential users, it's simply political. A 21st century Parly, if you wish.

 

[johnw]

I commute to Leicester from Wellingborough most weeks. I don’t want to change trains at Kettering and pay the same train intercity fares for a hand me down former Anglia or Stansted Exptress EMU. All for the sake of bloody Corby, a town nobody wants to travel to.

 

[Stevec101]

Have you actually traveled with EMT?
Stagecoach have done a poor job, that's why I want them to lose it!

Maybe I've got rose tinted spectacles on, but I was hoping First would use their experience with GWR to improve the EM Intercity services.

Stagecoach have been absolutely useless a terrible 10yrs compared to the midland mainline days. But first are as bad. I'd prefer a new start with arriva or Abellio

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Stagecoach have been absolutely useless a terrible 10yrs compared to the midland mainline days. But first are as bad. I'd prefer a new start with arriva or Abellio

considering Arriva did little more than B**ger all with the Wales franchise be careful what you wish for!

 

[Iskra]

I commute to Leicester from Wellingborough most weeks. I don’t want to change trains at Kettering and pay the same train intercity fares for a hand me down former Anglia or Stansted Exptress EMU. All for the sake of bloody Corby, a town nobody wants to travel to.

The Stansted Express EMU's are very nice.

Passengers from the North/Nottingham/London probably think Wellingborough is a pointless call and a town that nobody wants to travel to...

I think EMT have done a decent if uninspiring job. Love the breakfast services and HST's. Often lots of cheap fares to be found too in both classes. Their DMU's are immaculate compared to Northern. Certainly provided a better service than the ECML operators have on a franchise where it's difficult to please everybody..

 

[Stevec101]

considering Arriva did little more than B**ger all with the Wales franchise be careful what you wish for!

I don't think they've buggered up the Wales franchise it's all just ticked along. Yet you cannot say that for stagecoach and the East Midlands franchise.

 

[Stevec101]

The Stansted Express EMU's are very nice.

Passengers from the North/Nottingham/London probably think Wellingborough is a pointless call and a town that nobody wants to travel to...

I think EMT have done a decent if uninspiring job. Love the breakfast services and HST's. Often lots of cheap fares to be found too in both classes. Their DMU's are immaculate compared to Northern. Certainly provided a better service than the ECML operators have on a franchise where it's difficult to please everybody..

The breakfast and service was much much better under Midland mainline. If they'd not been required to keep certain levels of service buffer cars would have gone ten yrs ago. They cut the onboard staff considerably within a yr of taking over. Increased share dividends by saving on wages and reducing service.
Bring back mml

 

[43074]

Stagecoach have been absolutely useless a terrible 10yrs compared to the midland mainline days. But first are as bad. I'd prefer a new start with arriva or Abellio

They're really not that bad, on the whole the trains are clean and the service is reliable, they get the basics right. The issues are either largely down to DfT when the franchise was specified in 2007 or there's no incentive for Stagecoach to solve them at this stage. The network needs more capacity (Mainline and local services) but I'd say EMT have done a decent job given the hand they were dealt at the start of the franchise.

 

[Iskra]

The breakfast and service was much much better under Midland mainline. If they'd not been required to keep certain levels of service buffer cars would have gone ten yrs ago. They cut the onboard staff considerably within a yr of taking over. Increased share dividends by saving on wages and reducing service.
Bring back mml

Sadly I'm too young to really remember Midland Mainline, although I did travel on them from Leeds to London, but not in first class. I bet the folk who travelled on 2-car 170's out of London don't agree with you.

I've never felt EMT trains to be under-staffed compared to the number of passengers. Their breakfast is one of the best around along with GWR Pullman/ATW Premier Service. EMT have got the best they could out of the resources available, providing a professional service at the same time.

I think you're either being over nostalgic or have a wider axe to grind with Stagecoach for some reason.

 

[Stevec101]

They're really not that bad, on the whole the trains are clean and the service is reliable, they get the basics right. The issues are either largely down to DfT when the franchise was specified in 2007 or there's no incentive for Stagecoach to solve them at this stage. The network needs more capacity (Mainline and local services) but I'd say EMT have done a decent job given the hand they were dealt at the start of the franchise.

Completely disagree. I think rail privatisation is a disaster and the way stagecoach have run EMT is further evidence. It's all down to profit. When people compare anything to northern it frustrates me. Northern is rotten to the core nobody cares. EMT has a major intercity franchise built within it. The only sympathy I have is the fact tgat whoever took over the franchise inherited the ex central east Midlands fiasco. Nobody really wanted it but they did want mml. The government destroyed a good company in mml by merging it with services nobody wanted.
The East Midlands franchise has done nothing positive. No new trains no forward thinking. It's basically done the minimum and taken as much money out as possible.

 

[cactustwirly]

Sadly I'm too young to really remember Midland Mainline, although I did travel on them from Leeds to London, but not in first class. I bet the folk who travelled on 2-car 170's out of London don't agree with you.

I've never felt EMT trains to be under-staffed compared to the number of passengers. Their breakfast is one of the best around along with GWR Pullman/ATW Premier Service. EMT have got the best they could out of the resources available, providing a professional service at the same time.

I think you're either being over nostalgic or have a wider axe to grind with Stagecoach for some reason.

Well they don't use a buffet anymore, and the trolley is staffed by Rail gourmet, who don't turn up half the time.
Some of the fares are ridiculously priced, and I can never find the mystery "cheap first advances," from my experience they don't offer any advances in first at all, unlike most other operators.
And the standard advances aren't particularly cheap either.
The state of their trains is appalling, apparently it is acceptable to regularly turn out trains with ripped seats.
The condition of their stations isn't great tbh either.

Basically they aren't a disaster like GTR or Northern, but nothing to shout home about.

 

[Stevec101]

Well they don't use a buffet anymore, and the trolley is staffed by Rail gourmet, who don't turn up half the time.
Some of the fares are ridiculously priced, and I can never find the mystery "cheap first advances," from my experience they don't offer any advances in first at all, unlike most other operators.
And the standard advances aren't particularly cheap either.
The state of their trains is appalling, apparently it is acceptable to regularly turn out trains with ripped seats.
The condition of their stations isn't great tbh either.

Basically they aren't a disaster like GTR or Northern, but nothing to shout home about.

It was Midland mainline who replaced the 170s with the meridians. You do know that don't you?

 

[cactustwirly]

It was Midland mainline who replaced the 170s with the meridians. You do know that don't you?

Yes I do, but where did I say that wasn't the case?