Landlords, tenants and deposits

[Girner]

Warning, this is a rant!
Inviting any landlords reading this to please explain their position.
I have just left a rented house after nearly 4 years renting. Everything was done through an agent so I never had the 'pleasure' of meeting the owner. I gave all the correct notice period and even paid 3 days extra rent to save the moving out clean on the same day as moving. My wife and I went back to the property to clean the carpets and clean the house to the standard we found it in, which if truth be told wasn't that great. To cut a long story short, we have now had an email from the agent telling us the landlord is claiming money off our deposit for some ridiculous things which include deep cleaning (done), re-decorating walls because he doesn't ike the paint colour (which had been permitted by the agent) and replacing a door which we had damaged to which I had patched to almost invisible and painted to make it look 20 times better than the door was previously. Add to that, we moved in with 2 other doors already damaged. These and other wear and tear issues.
Needless to say, we will dispute any claims with the adjudicator and it's only £700 so we can afford to wait and also write off if need be as it was never budgeted for but £700 is £700!
What gives a landlord the idea that after receiving thousands of pounds of rent, they can try to use your money to upgrade their house? This has happened twice now and it boils my blood! I might have well trashed the joint and walked away.
I understand that landlords have the right to make legitimate claims for damage and also some tenants are pigs but if I was a landlord and walked back into my property and it had been cleaned and repaired, I would be over the moon not to see it wrecked. I put it down to greed but maybe a landlord could enlighten me here?

 

[thejuggler]

Its nothing new. At least there is a now a deposit protection scheme so you can dispute any unfair charges.

The recent changes to Buy to Let means its not as lucrative as it once was so landlords may well be more likely to get whatever they can out of the deal.

When landlords have to start paying fees to agents for credit checks etc this behaviour may well increase. I can certainly see deposits rising to cover landlords initial outlay to secure a tenant.

 

[The_Train]

I've rented a number of properties and have never once received the full deposit back. All properties have been left in the same condition as I found them at the very least but landlords will always seem to find excuses to keep the money. I've never fought it as I simply can't be bothered and I always write the deposit off as soon as it's paid....it's probably this lack of fight by most people which allows landlords to get away with it to be honest.

One thing I will say regarding the OPs comment about being charged for re-decorating, I've always been told that I can re-decorate (subject to permission being granted) but I would have to then re-decorate it back to the colour scheme in the property when I moved in. So on this basis I can understand them being charged for this

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Warning, this is a rant!
Inviting any landlords reading this to please explain their position.
I have just left a rented house after nearly 4 years renting. Everything was done through an agent so I never had the 'pleasure' of meeting the owner. I gave all the correct notice period and even paid 3 days extra rent to save the moving out clean on the same day as moving. My wife and I went back to the property to clean the carpets and clean the house to the standard we found it in, which if truth be told wasn't that great. To cut a long story short, we have now had an email from the agent telling us the landlord is claiming money off our deposit for some ridiculous things which include deep cleaning (done), re-decorating walls because he doesn't ike the paint colour (which had been permitted by the agent) and replacing a door which we had damaged to which I had patched to almost invisible and painted to make it look 20 times better than the door was previously. Add to that, we moved in with 2 other doors already damaged. These and other wear and tear issues.
Needless to say, we will dispute any claims with the adjudicator and it's only £700 so we can afford to wait and also write off if need be as it was never budgeted for but £700 is £700!
What gives a landlord the idea that after receiving thousands of pounds of rent, they can try to use your money to upgrade their house? This has happened twice now and it boils my blood! I might have well trashed the joint and walked away.
I understand that landlords have the right to make legitimate claims for damage and also some tenants are pigs but if I was a landlord and walked back into my property and it had been cleaned and repaired, I would be over the moon not to see it wrecked. I put it down to greed but maybe a landlord could enlighten me here?

I'm a landlord, and from the description you've written, those charges don't sound reasonable. I let to students so usually I have new people in every year. Deep cleaning before the new tenants move in is something I expect to pay for myself. Likewise, redecorating as and when needed. And after people have been in the house for a year, I expect to see items looking about a year older than at the start of the year. I will claim and have claimed money off deposits but only where it's clear damage that goes significantly beyond normal wear and tear. Regarding repainting the walls, if a tenant wants to do this, then I think I'd want to agree a colour with them, and be able to inspect after they've done it to make sure they haven't messed things up in a way that would make the house harder to re-let. Any issues should then be resolved at that time.

I think the problem is that lots of people see buying a house and letting it out as a great extra source of income, but don't have experience in business, and therefore don't have any real concept of customer service. Also, lots of landlords have never been tenants (or haven't been tenants for a very long time) and so have little idea of what life is like for a tenant or of what expectations a tenant would reasonably have of a landlord. Add to that straight penny-pinching etc., and it's a recipe for this kind of thing regularly happening

 

[The_Train]

I'm a landlord, and from the description you've written, those charges don't sound reasonable. I let to students so usually I have new people in every year. Deep cleaning before the new tenants move in is something I expect to pay for myself. Likewise, redecorating as and when needed. And after people have been in the house for a year, I expect to see items looking about a year older than at the start of the year. I will claim and have claimed money off deposits but only where it's clear damage that goes significantly beyond normal wear and tear. Regarding repainting the walls, if a tenant wants to do this, then I think I'd want to agree a colour with them, and be able to inspect after they've done it to make sure they haven't messed things up in a way that would make the house harder to re-let. Any issues should then be resolved at that time.

I think the problem is that lots of people see buying a house and letting it out as a great extra source of income, but don't have experience in business, and therefore don't have any real concept of customer service. Also, lots of landlords have never been tenants (or haven't been tenants for a very long time) and so have little idea of what life is like for a tenant or of what expectations a tenant would reasonably have of a landlord. Add to that straight penny-pinching etc., and it's a recipe for this kind of thing regularly happening

Are you sure you're a landlord? You sound far too reasonable to be a landlord

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Warning, this is a rant!
Inviting any landlords reading this to please explain their position.
I have just left a rented house after nearly 4 years renting. Everything was done through an agent so I never had the 'pleasure' of meeting the owner. I gave all the correct notice period and even paid 3 days extra rent to save the moving out clean on the same day as moving. My wife and I went back to the property to clean the carpets and clean the house to the standard we found it in, which if truth be told wasn't that great. To cut a long story short, we have now had an email from the agent telling us the landlord is claiming money off our deposit for some ridiculous things which include deep cleaning (done), re-decorating walls because he doesn't ike the paint colour (which had been permitted by the agent) and replacing a door which we had damaged to which I had patched to almost invisible and painted to make it look 20 times better than the door was previously. Add to that, we moved in with 2 other doors already damaged. These and other wear and tear issues.
Needless to say, we will dispute any claims with the adjudicator and it's only £700 so we can afford to wait and also write off if need be as it was never budgeted for but £700 is £700!
What gives a landlord the idea that after receiving thousands of pounds of rent, they can try to use your money to upgrade their house? This has happened twice now and it boils my blood! I might have well trashed the joint and walked away.
I understand that landlords have the right to make legitimate claims for damage and also some tenants are pigs but if I was a landlord and walked back into my property and it had been cleaned and repaired, I would be over the moon not to see it wrecked. I put it down to greed but maybe a landlord could enlighten me here?

I assume you was sensible enough to take plenty of pics?

I feel your pain though. I'm currently going through the process myself due to circumstances changing.. I would say be glad you never actually met your landlord... mine lives next door... there are numerous jobs that have needed doing to the house for a few yrs ago, but nothings ever been done. Without going into details, I strongly suspect that he will try and claim my deposit for the "damage" I've done to the property... and I'm seriously considering leaving without paying my final months rent {thereby getting my deposit back that way}

 

[Gemz91]

Always been blessed when I've rented and had my full deposits back, but think I just got lucky. My friend once had some of his deposit with held for the replacement of a bathroom door which he put a hook in the back off. He knew the people who moved into the house he had previously rented and when he went to visit them the old bathroom door was there complete with the hook which he'd put in. Highway robbery, but probably not a lot you can do about it.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Always been blessed when I've rented and had my full deposits back, but think I just got lucky. My friend once had some of his deposit with held for the replacement of a bathroom door which he put a hook in the back off. He knew the people who moved into the house he had previously rented and when he went to visit them the old bathroom door was there complete with the hook which he'd put in. Highway robbery, but probably not a lot you can do about it.

Now that deposits legally have to be held by an independent body I think the way forward would be that inventories and end of tenancy inspections are done by an independent 3rd party... that way there would be no way of rogue landlords to get their hands on the deposit for supposed imaginary damage.

Also I think it's about time that England and Wales fell into line with Scottish practice and scrapped tenancy fees for tenants...these can range from £50- £300 and what for? for a few credit checks/ landlord references...and if you fail to satisfy the agent at this stage you lose your money...

Can you imagine going into tesco for your weekly shop and being told "sorry we've got a new policy. You have to give us £100 up front.. we'll then do a credit check, and also we will want a reference from the last 3 supermarkets you've used.. oh and if we ain't satisfied with the results then you can't shop with us.. and we'll keep your 100 quid into the bargain"?

 

[TheEdge]

I've returned two rental properties and had two totally different experiences.

First one was a flat rented from a standard letting agency. At the end of the tenancy the agency/landlord wanted to take money off for wear to the carpets, in front of the doorway between the hall and living room, so a very high traffic area. They also claimed the flat was in a worse condition than we'd arrived, we'd spent an entire day tidying the totally empty flat! The agency had been an issue from day one, every twelve weeks they'd turned up and marked us on the condition of the flat, even its tidiness. One time I'd called them for a totally dead light fitting. Rather than accept I was a grown adult capable of doing basic maintenance they immediately threatened me with a call out charge if it was a blown light bulb. In the end the switch and light fitting needed replacing. Come the end of the tenancy they decided they wanted to take an amount from the deposit, they wouldn't tell us the amount as they "couldn't get hold of the landlord", who lived abroad. They ummed and arred for about a week over it with various excuses, my partner and I did some digging and contacted them, demanded either the amount they wished to return or the full deposit returned within 10 days of the end of tenancy as the rules of the Tenancy Deposit Scheme dictate. As soon as we proved we knew our rights the full deposit, no deductions was returned within 24 hours. I have no doubt if we didn't say that they would have kept delaying until they could decide on an amount to take off.

Second was a cottage rented from a tiny estate agent run by two brothers. The brother who dealt with rentals took the deposit and then pretty much left us alone for the full length of the tenancy, almost 3 years, apart from two inspections. When he was called with issues someone was sent out within a day, no fuss. When it came to leaving my wife and I had separated, leaving me alone it what had been our home, so me leaving was quite traumatic. By the end of the day cleaning the empty house I was in bits and just done, which meant the last few jobs and some of the harder things (oven, bath, sink etc) were either half arsed or not done. Come his final walk round it was amicable, we shook hands, within a day he'd returned the deposit minus about £70 I think for a deep clean of the kitchen and bathroom. Note he didn't want to charge for the whole house to be cleaned, just the few bits he wasn't happy with and we'd agreed over.

Sadly I think the first experience is far more common and recognisable to most renters today. I think agencies take the mick and far too many private landlords have only got the one house they are trying to make a bit of cash on without fully appreciating the responsibilities they have as a landlord.

 

[skyhigh]

I've had a couple of experiences - one very positive, the landlord mostly left us alone and was happy with the condition of the property when we left and returned the deposit in full the same day.

The other we dealt with a managing agent. They quibbled over almost every repair we reported and took an age to sort anything. When we left, they tried to charge us £300 to replace a mattress, £100 to replace a vacuum cleaner and £100 to replace stained grouting in the bathroom. We'd reported the mattress and grouting when we moved in and had photos to show they were no worse. It turned out the cleaners they sent round pinched the hoover and left theirs, so that charge was struck off along with the others! No doubt if we didn't have photos they'd have charged us...

 

[SteveP29]

I'm currently still awaiting the return of my deposit on my previous flat 3 and a half years after I left the property.
The c**t that was the property manager of the flat I was renting (apologies for the language, but that's what he is) inspected the property the day I handed the keys back and said it all looked in order all I had to do was show that there was no outstanding Council Tax or Electricity bills to be paid (which should have rang bells immediately because those debts are attached to the person, not the property)
5 days later he sent me a text to say that he'd be deducting an amount off my deposit because of repairs that needed doing because the owner of the flat had been to see it and taken photographs (I know this to be a lie as when I'd had previous contretemps with him, I'd managed to find the owner of the flat, she lives in Italy and wasn't in Scotland or even the UK when the property manager claimed she was), claiming damage to the settee, the windows and under the bed hadn't been cleaned and a big stain on the carpet under the armchair (I had moved the furniture round in the flat, not to cover a stain, but to allow the heat from the radiator to heat the room, instead of the back of the settee, since it was a perishingly cold flat even with the heating and electric fire on)
Bedroom window handle had broken, it took him 96 days to send someone round to fix it (I could have done the job in less than an hour AND that included walking to Wickes and back to buy the new handle), all that time, the flat was insecure (ground floor), if I'd been able to afford contents insurance, it'd have been invalidated. He didn't respond to an email I sent him with a photo of a fungal infestation in the old toilet room where the washing machine was.
He hadn't secured my deposit (said it was an oversight, but when you are the property manager for over 50 properties, that's not a mistake you make, knowing you could be taken to court) so I took him to court, my deposit was £580, I could have had over £1500 in compensation from him (it was actually the owner that I had to take to court), the judge in the case said he was unprepared, at best, shifty. I settled for £1000, he thought that included my deposit.
We have been to-ing and fro-ing ever since with long periods of no contact with offer and counter offer. I firmly believe I left the flat in a better condition than I received it, no inventory or condition survey was done before I took possession of the keys, so it would be difficult for either party to prove either way. The owner did send me a message a year ago to say that she would pay the difference between what I'd paid in deposit and what the property manager had offered me (£180), I told her to tell him that and for him to message me and say that would be the case (I'd then have my written confirmation that I'd be repaid in full) before I would give him my bank details to deposit the cash.
I am in process of writing one last letter to the owner, setting out that I intend to give her one month to sort it with the property manager and for me to be paid the full amount back into my bank account, or I will be seeking redress in court, bearing in mind that I will be able to charge 8% interest and she would have court costs to pay, it would be to their advantage to settle up in full beforehand.

The rental property market has been cornered by a select number of people who are in it just to make vast piles of cash, profiting on the misery of others unable to be in their lucky position.

 

[Bodiddly]

You can't win either way with them. Clean the house and they charge you, leave it a state and they charge you.
Easy money.

 

[DarloRich]

I have rented several properties and always got every penny of my deposit back. Why? Because I read the agreement thoroughly and insist on it being followed by all parties. I do a through inspection with the agent or landlord before i take possession noting every little detail on the inventory and attach photographs of any issues. I always rent unfurnished properties. I don't decorate and I don't fix anything. It isnt my responsibility. I don't take any crap off the agent and always try to cut them out of the picture as quickly as i can. When I leave I do a similar inspection with more photos.

You have to know your rights and be assertive enough to enforce and defend them otherwise people will extract the urine. Once I have cut the agents out of the picture I find most landlords are decent. Sadly there are many dodgy agents who queer the pitch for the good ones.

@Girner - you need to be really careful with the T&C. Agents permission to decorate doesn't, say, remove the need to return the property in the same decorative condition you received it. Cleaning is also subjective. Your clean and my clean differ.

@SteveP29 - was that in Scotland or England?

 

[telstarbox]

ALAB.

 

[DarloRich]

ALAB?

 

[SteveP29]

@SteveP29 - was that in Scotland or England?

Scotland

 

[DarloRich]

Scotland

cheers - are there different legal rules on this in Scotland?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

ALAB?

All landlords are.......???

I've been on both sides of the fence. In my student days and then when hawking myself around the country to build my career, I rented numerous properties so 2 student digs and then places in the North West, Cheshire, and the Midlands - about 7 in total. On one student house, there were a couple of issues that we were billed for that I was sceptical on but couldn't really challenge as it was one of my housemates who did the handover - we lost about £150-£200 or so. However, I had one unscrupulous landlord that absolutely took me and my mate for virtually a full deposit (about £450 - this was 1999) for issues that were evident on moving in. That taught me to take a lot of photos when moving in!

Subsequently, I have not had any problems with any of my landlords at any time (and never needed to refer to photos). Any issues have been resolved and never had a problem with deposits etc.

However, I have now got rental properties of my own; in fact, I was renting my house out whilst renting elsewhere after my personal circumstances changed! Whilst the behaviour of landlords can vary, so can tenants and some are better than others. Some are late in paying their rent, some always seem to have a problem (x has stopped working) but that's just the way of it as a landlord. I take my responsibilities to my tenants very seriously (perhaps because I've been a renter myself). If there's something that needs sorting, it gets done. If it's something fundamental (like a PCB on a boiler goes so they've no hot water or heat), that gets done ASAP and you pay the extra to get someone out soonest - you have a duty to your tenants. Other stuff - like a new carpet or cosmetic decoration is obviously less pressing but you need to get it done.

You will have bad landlords and likewise, you have bad tenants. The legal framework should protect both.

So no, not ALAB in much the same way that ATAB!

 

[Intermodal]

Whilst I always would try to get my deposit back, financially I write it off as soon as it leaves my account.

 

[Intermodal]

If it's something fundamental (like a PCB on a boiler goes so they've no hot water or heat), that gets done ASAP and you pay the extra to get someone out soonest - you have a duty to your tenants. Other stuff - like a new carpet or cosmetic decoration is obviously less pressing but you need to get it done.

Are you renting any properties in Middlesbrough?

 

[DarloRich]

So no, not ALAB in much the same way that ATAB!

Indeed - I have had some fantastic landlords. I ALWAYS try to find out who owns the property so i can cut the agent out and persuade the LL to deal with me directly. It fixes so many of the issues. Only once has a landlord insisted I use the agent and that LL was fairly new to the game and i think the agents had sold him a kipper about what he could expect both from them and a tenant. I didn't stay beyond my first 6 months.

As an aside only ever sign 6 month tenancies. Usually i have only ever singed one 6 month tenancy despite living there for several years!

Are you renting any properties in Middlesbrough?

no. They haven't been on fire At least it isnt hartlepooh. Thye pay You to rent a house there!

 

[Intermodal]

no. They haven't been on fire At least it isnt hartlepooh. Thye pay You to rent a house there!

I cycled up to Hartlepool yesterday and I went into McDonald's for literally 2 minutes to empty the tank. No joke when I came out someone had nicked the water bottle off my bike.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Are you renting any properties in Middlesbrough?

No - whilst I'm from the deep North and properties are cheap, it's not for me. As an aside, there was a BBC2 programme about lettings in the North East and some bloke from the South East who'd bought a rental property in Hartlepool. It was carnage and even the letting agent suggested it was better that the guy sell up!

Indeed - I have had some fantastic landlords. I ALWAYS try to find out who owns the property so i can cut the agent out and persuade the LL to deal with me directly. It fixes so many of the issues. Only once has a landlord insisted I use the agent and that LL was fairly new to the game and i think the agents had sold him a kipper about what he could expect both from them and a tenant. I didn't stay beyond my first 6 months.

As an aside only ever sign 6 month tenancies. Usually i have only ever singed one 6 month tenancy despite living there for several years!

Very good point. There is the question of letting agents and they can vary markedly. Often, it's the agents ineptitude or their own agenda rather than the landlord. Again, it's not a uniform thing.

Interesting you mention tenancy length. My view has always been to go for a minimum 6 months and then go onto a rolling contract - I don't want my tenants to leave so putting a date that makes them have to make a decision seems odd. Think that chimes with you.

One of my tenants did actually ask for a 12 month tenancy after their first six months so they had security. I explained that I wouldn't (can't paint myself into a corner) but they had no need to worry and that I had no plans to sell up.

I cycled up to Hartlepool yesterday and I went into McDonald's for literally 2 minutes to empty the tank. No joke when I came out someone had nicked the water bottle off my bike.

I could trot out some stuff about Hartlepool and its environs but perhaps not. However, best line I've heard about (through a third party) was on a BlueLine London Express in the mid 1990s. As the coach entered Hartlepool with the sign "twinned with Hucklehoven", someone said "did they hang a monkey there too?". Cue a very animated argument with a Poorlie about three seats down who didn't see the funny side

 

[DarloRich]

Very good point. There is the question of letting agents and they can vary markedly. Often, it's the agents ineptitude or their own agenda rather than the landlord. Again, it's not a uniform thing.

Interesting you mention tenancy length. My view has always been to go for a minimum 6 months and then go onto a rolling contract - I don't want my tenants to leave so putting a date that makes them have to make a decision seems odd. Think that chimes with you.

One of my tenants did actually ask for a 12 month tenancy after their first six months so they had security. I explained that I wouldn't (can't paint myself into a corner) but they had no need to worry and that I had no plans to sell up.

I don't rent now but I absolutely agree. A 6 month agreement followed by a continuation tenancy is all that is needed. The agents hate that though as it means they cant charge their rip off renewal fees and that is a big part of their profit margin. In any event a 12 month tenancy doesn't, really, offer you as tenant any greater security. It is slightly more favorable for the LL but not by much.

 

[WelshBluebird]

In any event a 12 month tenancy doesn't, really, offer you as tenant any greater security.

Surely it does? As a tenant you can be kicked out of your home with 2 months notice for no reason at all if you just have a rolling contract. If you have a minimum term, then the landlord has to wait either that time, or trigger a "break clause" where one exists if they want to kick you out without reason (evictions are separate issues).

 

[DarloRich]

Surely it does? As a tenant you can be kicked out of your home with 2 months notice for no reason at all if you just have a rolling contract. If you have a minimum term, then the landlord has to wait either that time, or trigger a "break clause" where one exists if they want to kick you out without reason (evictions are separate issues).

A sensible landlord will offer you a 12 month tenancy with a 6 month break clause effectively turning your 12 month tenancy onto 2 x 6 month tenancies thus negating your added security.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Indeed - I have had some fantastic landlords. I ALWAYS try to find out who owns the property so i can cut the agent out and persuade the LL to deal with me directly. It fixes so many of the issues. Only once has a landlord insisted I use the agent and that LL was fairly new to the game and i think the agents had sold him a kipper about what he could expect both from them and a tenant. I didn't stay beyond my first 6 months.

Interesting... I've rented all my life, both social housing and private landlords.. social housing is a nightmare to get any repairs done... the council/ housing associations seem to work on the basis of "you want subsidised rent so put up with the problem"

All my private rentals have been arranged through agencies... all but my current one has been with full management by the agency... my current tenancy is one where I deal direct with the landlord for all maintanence issues... my landlord lives next door so shouldn't be a problem should it?

er no... this has been the worst property I've ever been in for getting things done... in short my landlord is a swivel eyed miser! and I am really glad that I only have 2 more weeks before I move out... which is a shame because the property is my dream home and in a location that I always wanted to live in... right from when I was a kid!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I've never had a landlord I'd be prepared to buy a pint for. As a student they were all pervy 40-somethings who seemed a bit too interested in female tenants, and who would invent faults to avoid repaying deposits.

Post-university, EVERY property I've rented has been owned by someone living offshore and managed by a letting agent. It's a blessing that the agent who manages my current flat is brilliant, a small firm who are always quick to deal with any issues. When I move out, I'll rightfully lose some of my deposit due to damage I've done- as long as it doesn't magically turn into a much bigger issue I don't have a problem with that.

 

[WelshBluebird]

A sensible landlord will offer you a 12 month tenancy with a 6 month break clause effectively turning your 12 month tenancy onto 2 x 6 month tenancies thus negating your added security.

Personally I'd say having a minimum of 6 months is more secure than 2 months.
The landlords I have dealt with since university have been pretty decent and have given me plenty of notice (the last one gave me about 9 months!). So I haven't really felt I've needed to push for another set period, but if I didn't trust the landlord / agency you can bet I would!

 

[DarloRich]

Personally I'd say having a minimum of 6 months is more secure than 2 months.

is it not 4 months v 6 months for a s.21 notice?