Will there ever be a new terminal in London?

[najaB]

Moving more government jobs out of London might reduce some of the pressures

There aren't that many government Jobs in London, as compared to twenty or thirty years ago.

 

[The Ham]

There aren't that many government Jobs in London, as compared to twenty or thirty years ago.

If you look at the number of government jobs nearly every region has broadly the right percentage when compared to the percentage of the UK population.

There are two exceptions the first being London which is higher (which is unexpected) and the second is the South East which is lower.

However when looked at together (i.e. London and the South East) they again are broadly the right percentage, which makes sense given that of you want anything central for the South East London is the easiest place to get to.

 

[Hetlana]

I think that by only terminating HS2 at Old Oak Common they are missing out on a massive opportunity - they should create a single Hautbahnhof for the Chiltern Main Line (via the New North Main Line), the GWML, the WCML as well as HS2. Only Crossrail and Overground should continue into Euston and Paddington. Huge amounts of money could be saved by saved by selling off large ammounts of track bed.

 

[najaB]

I think that by only terminating HS2 at Old Oak Common they are missing out on a massive opportunity - they should create a single Hautbahnhof for the Chiltern Main Line (via the New North Main Line), the GWML, the WCML as well as HS2. Only Crossrail and Overground should continue into Euston and Paddington. Huge amounts of money could be saved by saved by selling off large ammounts of track bed.

Ah, the good old Michael O'Leary model. A trip from where you are to a place almost, but not quite, entirely not where you want to be.

 

[Hetlana]

Ah, the good old Michael O'Leary model. A trip from where you are to a place almost, but not quite, entirely not where you want to be.

• Other countries have massive interchange stations in places that were previously in the inner-suburbs, if not out of town, and often it’s the best decision - more space to build big and have the right capacity.
• These new ‘mega-stations’ will always have better connections than the old termini, by definition, and so any distance disadvantage will be more than made up for
• The new sites often become new ‘manhattans’ in their own right, as OOC will.
• Old Oak Common is still in inner London, and in fact, Euston and the other termini were on the edge of what was then built up London when they were built.

 

[najaB]

Other countries have massive interchange stations in places that were previously in the inner-suburbs, if not out of town, and often it’s the best decision - more space to build big and have the right capacity.

Examples. please?

 

[AndrewE]

Examples. please?

Barcelona Sants? Belgrade Centar & Topcidar? Plus Lille, of course. Seville Santa Justa.

 

[MarkyT]

The gathering of multiple long distance terminals along Euston Road could also develop into a kind of major hauptbahn complex in a useful position just north of financial and retail districts, with many destinations no more than a short walk, bus or taxi journey away and excellent tube and rail connections for the wider conurbation and region. With only the choice of Old Oak Common, many people would face additional interchanges to complete their journeys. For HS2, the two station solution provides a much broader range of direct interchange opportunities than one station ever could. In Tokyo, Shinkansen lines terminating at the main central station all call at an edge city interchange rather like OOC on their way in and out of the capital. In Vienna, the new hauptbahn occupies a former traditional terminal site about 3km from the heart of the city. In Berlin the east west and north south links pass right through the centre of the city and the hauptbahn is situated at their intersection, which is just over the river from the Bundestag, the seat of national government. That location is perhaps analogous to London Waterloo. Old Oak Common by contrast is about 9km from the palace of Westminster. Imagine the cost and time required to make such a journey by taxi.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Old Oak Common is still in inner London

I'm sorry, it really isn't. It is innersuburban. Even Paddington is borderline (and a right nuisance), but OOC is further out still.

and in fact, Euston and the other termini were on the edge of what was then built up London when they were built.

What Euston was in the late 1800s/early 1900s is not of any relevance whatsoever to what Euston is today.

FWIW, you are making the big assumption that everyone travels onwards from Euston by Tube. They don't. Many of them go by bus, many take taxis, and many walk or use bicycles, either their own or Bozza bikes. By terminating services out in the sticks, and it *is* out in the sticks, you deny the latter the opportunity to travel onwards in the way they wish. Not only that, but adding significantly to the travel time of commuters who like things at Euston just as they are (though a possible compromise would be to run the LNR service onto Crossrail as was mooted at one point).

It's the kind of idiocy you see in anti-rail countries and those that can't afford it properly, not in a Western European capital city, where rail is the core of the public transport operation.

You keep quoting Berlin, but Berlin isn't like London, most notably in that large German cities tend to be much more mixed residential/business than in the UK, and thus you end up with far less of a defined "city centre".

In my eyes the professionals tasked with the decision have made the correct one - which is to serve OOC for Crossrail etc, and to serve a Zone 1 terminus as well, which as it has the capacity and space for it means Euston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Barcelona Sants? Belgrade Centar & Topcidar? Plus Lille, of course. Seville Santa Justa.

I hardly think the relatively anti-rail Balkans are worth holding up as the way to do a rail project. Next thing we'll be getting onto the single platform station (if it's even running at the moment) in outersuburban Tirana that plays host to an old Czech diesel and a couple of ex DB Silberling coaches 3 or 4 times a day if you're lucky

 

[Bletchleyite]

Old Oak Common by contrast is about 9km from the palace of Westminster. Imagine the cost and time required to make such a journey by taxi.

Quite. And this is why the idea of terminating there is utterly ridiculous. It'd be like permanently closing Liverpool Lime St with services moved to South Parkway, or "Manchester Stockport Hbf", or something equally ludicrous. Basically taking away rail's big advantage over air - actually reaching the city centre you're going to.

The Chinese might well do it, but their country is just a little bit different from ours in size and so the rail travel demand differs hugely in concept - not a lot of day tripping for a start, whereas I'd venture that the vast majority of UK rail travel consists of single day return journeys.

 

[MarkyT]

Barcelona Sants? Belgrade Centar & Topcidar? Plus Lille, of course. Seville Santa Justa.

All fairly central though, non at OOC like distance from their respective city centres. I think the idea of having two stations in London for HS2 is excellent for a city the size of a small country. I would go further with that concept and divert GWML (after a stop at OOC) into Euston classic station as well to consolidate all long distance intercity, HS and continental services along the Euston Road, with greatly improved pedestrian links between Euston and KX/St.P, but that might be stretching the crayons a little too far.

 

[gsnedders]

You keep quoting Berlin, but Berlin isn't like London, most notably in that large German cities tend to be much more mixed residential/business than in the UK, and thus you end up with far less of a defined "city centre".

Also Berlin was in a radically different place when Berlin Hbf was planned: large amounts of the city was being redeveloped, there was a comparatively large amount of free land, and the north/south approaches to the Berlin Hbf Tief were pre-existing railway land (to Anhalter Bnf and Lehter Bnf respectively).

 

[najaB]

Barcelona Sants? Belgrade Centar & Topcidar? Plus Lille, of course. Seville Santa Justa.

Oh yes, Barcelona Sants - the 48th busiest train station in Europe. (The others don't even make the Wikipedia list).

 

[M28361M]

Also Berlin was in a radically different place when Berlin Hbf was planned: large amounts of the city was being redeveloped, there was a comparatively large amount of free land, and the north/south approaches to the Berlin Hbf Tief were pre-existing railway land (to Anhalter Bnf and Lehter Bnf respectively).

Even then, the construction of the station was quite controversial, particularly because the former West Berlin's main station at Zoologischer Garten - convenient for the Ku'damm shopping area and many hotels - lost nearly all of its Intercity services and is now served by regional/S-Bahn trains only. And it took a while for the city's public transport to properly serve the station: a few bus and tram routes have been extended to the station, but the only U-Bahn connection is the stub U55 shuttle to Brandenburg Gate; it will be 2020 before the U5 finally reaches there.

 

[quantinghome]

... Lille, of course.

Would that be Lille Europe? The station all of 500m from the old Lille Flandres station. The latter still sees quite a lot of high speed trains.

 

[cle]

A lot of the Italian cities built bypasses for their terminus spurs, with big new stations - but not at the expense of the traditional terminus. That's the federal/all ex-capitals vibe (which makes their secondary cities, regionalism in cuisine etc so much more interesting, but I digress).

Plans for LGV Nord to La Defense were killed by Macron. I can't think of many examples. People want the centre.

Having a second main station for many trains to call at is good practice (Ueno/Shinagawa, Newark Penn... and closer to home, the likes of Stratford, Stockport, Clapham/Vauxhall, Finsbury Park...and OOC! ) when the metro area is so large and you need to disperse people onto the streets and other lines. In the future, I can see more of this second zone 2/3 call happening, such as everything calling at Vauxhall, re-instated Willesden Junction platforms post-HS2, more for Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye... but not at the expense of the ultimate central station.

 

[MarkyT]

Would that be Lille Europe? The station all of 500m from the old Lille Flandres station. The latter still sees quite a lot of high speed trains.

With an easy and direct step and traffic free pedestrian route between the terminals along Allée de Leige. The kind of thing we need between Euston and St Pancras in London.

 

[gsnedders]

Even then, the construction of the station was quite controversial, particularly because the former West Berlin's main station at Zoologischer Garten - convenient for the Ku'damm shopping area and many hotels - lost nearly all of its Intercity services and is now served by regional/S-Bahn trains only. And it took a while for the city's public transport to properly serve the station: a few bus and tram routes have been extended to the station, but the only U-Bahn connection is the stub U55 shuttle to Brandenburg Gate; it will be 2020 before the U5 finally reaches there.

I'd actually somehow missed Zoo losing its calls, but I rarely go much outside Berlin when I'm there, given Ostbahnhof still is the terminus station for the east-west lines, and most still call at Spandau. I guess Hbf is just viewed as too close to Zoo, compared with the much further east Ostbahnhof? (And also where there's sidings and cleaners etc., though they could just run ECS, but I guess that gains very little?)

 

[keith1879]

• Other countries have massive interchange stations in places that were previously in the inner-suburbs, if not out of town, and often it’s the best decision - more space to build big and have the right capacity.
• These new ‘mega-stations’ will always have better connections than the old termini, by definition, and so any distance disadvantage will be more than made up for
• The new sites often become new ‘manhattans’ in their own right, as OOC will.
• Old Oak Common is still in inner London, and in fact, Euston and the other termini were on the edge of what was then built up London when they were built.

I don't claim to have any knowledge of other countries ....but when travelling to London I always find that the connection I require is to go somewhere else in London - or right out the other side. So that will be the tube or possibly Thameslink (from the North). Combining Euston with Paddington and Marylebone on the site of Old Oak Common would provide almost no useful new connection opportunities while putting my terminating train further from the centre of town. Concentrating all services from roughly the same direction on a single terminal station may make good operational sense and save some money (although I think the investment and disruption to achieve this mega-terminal would be astronomic). One of these cases where (much as we might distrust 'experts') I tend to think that the fact that this hasn't been seriously proposed by the professionals suggests that there is no compelling case to do it.

 

[AndrewE]

Oh yes, Barcelona Sants - the 48th busiest train station in Europe. (The others don't even make the Wikipedia list).

I wasn't saying I like the policy, or would want it here, just responding to your challenge to name European cities where they had done it. The Wikipedia page said the Seville station is the 3rd busiest in Spain, so I guess Barcelona Sants must be No 1 or 2. For the funding authority it's the ranking in Spain that matters, not any comparison with the rest of Europe.

 

[najaB]

I wasn't saying I like the policy, or would want it here, just responding to your challenge to name European cities where they had done it. ... For the funding authority it's the ranking in Spain that matters, not any comparison with the rest of Europe.

But nobody on the scale of replacing Euston, Marylebone and Euston as suggested. Hence the comparison with other countries is perfectly valid, and the model is found wanting where top-flight, city centre terminals are concerned.

 

[Bald Rick]

Barcelona Sants? Belgrade Centar & Topcidar? Plus Lille, of course. Seville Santa Justa.

I must have imagined walking from Sants into central Barca, or Lille Europe into central Lille. I certainly wouldn’t consider walking from OOC to central London.