GWR/LNER IET first class: is it a downgrade?

[InterCity:125]

The exception is the lack of a buffet car on the Great Western sets, which I think is definitely a bad thing. I say this as a regular traveller by train to the West Country who has found the buffet car a very useful facility over the years.

Agreed

 

[47271]

I quite like the HSTs seats.

There's nothing wrong with the seats, it's that there's eight more per carriage than is normally comfortable, and basically no tables, that I have a problem with.

 

[JonathanH]

The updated 166s now have leather...

Do you mean one first class compartment in 166205 that was specified around the same time GWR did the second refit to the HST first class or something else?

In my opinion leather is not the height of luxury but others see different.

 

[yorksrob]

There's nothing wrong with the seats, it's that there's eight more per carriage than is normally comfortable, and basically no tables, that I have a problem with.

Yes, I'm sort of two states of mind about the current seats in GW's HST's. I don't find them uncomfortable, and the legroom is fine for me.

They do perhaps feel a teeny bit claustrophobic, but I'm probably unfairly comparing them to EMT's first class interior. I suppose I ought to compare them to the seats on a Mallard carriage or an XC HST (which I definitely find excellent, even in an airline).

 

[InterCity:125]

Do you mean one first class compartment in 166205 that was specified around the same time GWR did the second refit to the HST first class or something else?

On second thoughts I think that may be the only refurbished first class compartment I’ve been in, though I have been in it quite a lot.

 

[CMRail]

You can retrofit leather into old trains however trains being built can not have most leather installed under fire regulations.

 

[yorksrob]

You can retrofit leather into old trains however trains being built can not have most leather installed under fire regulations.

Although why one would want leather in the first place is open to question.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Although why one would want leather in the first place is open to question.

Agreed; fabric seats are much more comfortable and less slippery!*

*That is a generic statement relating to all fabric versus all leather regardless of seat design, not another debate on seat preferences.

 

[cactustwirly]

You can retrofit leather into old trains however trains being built can not have most leather installed under fire regulations.

Why?
Where's your source for this?
It's perfectly fine to have leather on new cars.
Actually I think leather is actually less flammable than the synthetic fabric, and much less flammable than the seat foams

 

[InterCity:125]

Although why one would want leather in the first place is open to question.

One wouldn’t though one would like decent seats, be they leather or fabric.

 

[cactustwirly]

Although why one would want leather in the first place is open to question.

Because it's more comfortable than fabric?

 

[yorksrob]

One wouldn’t though one would like decent seats, be they leather or fabric.

Indeed.

Because it's more comfortable than fabric?

I personally don't find that to be the case.

 

[bastien]

Remarkable how a thread about blinds can turn into yet another thread about seats.

 

[_toommm_]

Why?
Where's your source for this?
It's perfectly fine to have leather on new cars.
Actually I think leather is actually less flammable than the synthetic fabric, and much less flammable than the seat foams

It's not a regulation to vehicles as a whole, more of a regulation which applies to trains only.

 

[cactustwirly]

It's not a regulation to vehicles as a whole, more of a regulation which applies to trains only.

What exactly is this regulation?

 

[fgwrich]

You can retrofit leather into old trains however trains being built can not have most leather installed under fire regulations.

Interestingly I saw this comment appear on Facebook the other day and wondered too where this “new” regulation was from. The reason being that this has been bounced around regarding the IETs, but both ScotRails now newer 385 fleet and Trans Pennine Expresses new fleets both feature leather seats or leather headrests. I’m also inclined to thing GA maybe festuring the same on it’s FC in its new stock?

 

[CMRail]

Interestingly I saw this comment appear on Facebook the other day and wondered too where this “new” regulation was from. The reason being that this has been bounced around regarding the IETs, but both ScotRails now newer 385 fleet and Trans Pennine Expresses new fleets both feature leather seats or leather headrests. I’m also inclined to thing GA maybe festuring the same on it’s FC in its new stock?

Appears in a lot of interior designs at present so looks like it. I think the DfT were on a budget when it came to the interior, if anything gets changed it would be the 802s first.

 

[Grumpy]

. Blinds are not a good idea as your fellow passenger may want to deny you a view from a window if he or she would like it shut .

You should try sitting in the window seat for a couple of hours on a southbound ECML train early on a sunny spring day when the sun is very low and there is a constant flickering as the sun becomes momentarily hidden by structures. It's a horrible experience. Blinds should be mandatory.
One contribution towards uncomfortable seating in modern trains is the run of heating pipes along the floor adjacent to the carriage wall. In some trains it is impossible to sit in a window seat with your legs in front of you due to the protruding pipes/heaters, and accordingly an awkward, uncomfortable posture is the result. Smaller bore pipework and heaters under the seats should be mandatory.

 

[transmanche]

Why?
Where's your source for this?
It's perfectly fine to have leather on new cars.
Actually I think leather is actually less flammable than the synthetic fabric, and much less flammable than the seat foams

Indeed. RRSB cite BS EN 45545-2:2013+A1:2015 "Fire protection on railway vehicles. Requirements for fire behaviour of materials and components" as the relevant standard. (That standard would apply to European rail operators too.) I really can't see it 'banning' all leather seating. But specifying how fire resistant it must be.

(Rail vehicle fire safety standard may be different to cars and buses, as RSSB require trains to continue to a place where passengers can be safely evacuated - up to 15 mins is allowed for this on some trains. So the materials have to be fire resistant for longer than they might be in a car.)

 

[route101]

Agreed; fabric seats are much more comfortable and less slippery!*

*That is a generic statement relating to all fabric versus all leather regardless of seat design, not another debate on seat preferences.

Yep , was on LNER first class few weeks back , was slippy . Reminds me of leather in cars , something dodgy ha ,

I had someone put the blind down on a pendo in front of me , bit annoying when i was enjoying the view .

Anyone noticed they put the blinds half way down at the depot ?

 

[Mag_seven]

I had someone put the blind down on a pendo in front of me

re blinds, in the event of a dispute the blind should remain up.

 

[InterCity:125]

re blinds, in the event of a dispute the blind should remain up.

That’s discrimatory against vampires.

 

[tbtc]

Is First Class being downgraded?

Yeah, generally, more so in some areas than others (with some selectively used data to show that things are getting much worse or slightly better).

Is that a bad thing?

Probably not, given demands being made on the network.

The problem is that some people want the railway to give up half a coach to a buffet and another half a coach to "restaurant" seats as well as a couple of First Class coaches on Long Distance High Speed, because this is the kind of thing that BR had in the '80s and it's nice to have on an annual holiday to Cornwall.

Meanwhile, we are struggling to accommodate Standard Class passengers, and giving all of that space to non-Standard seating (First Class/ Buffet/ Restaurant) can seem a luxury.

Demands change. HSTs were built in the 1970s anticipating that kind of market (when there were few pubic places to eat - e.g. pubs shut in the afternoon and didn't sell much more than pork scratchings).

Now, with lots of alternatives (both at stations and elsewhere) the idea of giving up lots of space on a train to store/serve food seems a bit OTT on modern trains designed to last until the 2040/2050s.

Personally, as someone who pays (full price) for his own tickets, i don't bother with First Class. But some people will shell out an extra tenner for the sake of a "free" cup of coffee and bit of shortbread, so good luck if they want to subsidise the rest of us.

The question is more a case of "does a First Class seat bring in more revenue over the week than a Standard Class one does (given that First Class demand tends to be more specific to certain times, it requires additional members of staff to dish out the "freebies", there are generally fewer seats per carriage, a lot of First Class tickets are discounted anyway)". If a Standard Class carriage is expected to bring in a few thousand pounds of revenue over a typical week then as long as First Class ones pulling their weight too then fair enough.

But if it's a train like a four/five coach EMT 222, where us plebs are stood in Standard whilst First Class has a carriage too many then I'm less convinced.

Remarkable how a thread about blinds can turn into yet another thread about seats.

"As an RF discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving seats or paint approaches 1"

 

[Bletchleyite]

• Blinds (why is everyone so fussy about them, it’s not like it’s an additional charge)

They create conflict because one person might wish them to be up and one person wish them to be down.

This could be solved another way, though, in the manner that the French do with window opening/closure, with a clear sign stating "If there is a dispute over the position of the blind, it is to be left fully open[1]".

[1] or closed. Just needs a rule everyone can adhere to, just like what you do when reservations are not placed (i.e. whether they apply or do not).

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's nothing wrong with the seats, it's that there's eight more per carriage than is normally comfortable, and basically no tables, that I have a problem with.

While the alignment would still be poor (thanks, BR, for being too cheap to do a 9-window-bay version of the Mk3 coach for Standard) a 76 seat layout (10 tables) with new seats (thinner backed than the IC70) would be decent enough.

 

[swt_passenger]

While the alignment would still be poor (thanks, BR, for being too cheap to do a 9-window-bay version of the Mk3 coach for Standard) a 76 seat layout (10 tables) with new seats (thinner backed than the IC70) would be decent enough.

There’s 3 metres extra length to fit the 8 extra seats in, and there are more tables in the GW IETs than the HSTs they are replacing. Haven’t people actually reported that measuring them proves them to have more space? It’s getting like fake news here...

 

[InterCity:125]

new seats (thinner backed than the IC70) would be decent enough.

Unless the seats are harder, the plushness of the IC70s is one of the good features.

 

[greyman42]

One wouldn’t though one would like decent seats, be they leather or fabric.

It's the hard, thin, cheap piece of foam underneath the fabric that is the problem.

 

[Private Baxter]

I appreciate that some are sick.of this topic, but I haven't posted in this section before so will give my views.
Yes, I believe the standard of first class travel has declined with the IETs. It is far inferior to what it replaced on the HSTs, which was clear that a lot of thought and care had gone in to the design, which itself was only done about four years ago. Its replacement, whilst comfortable enough, and reasonably smart, is just so basic, and says little about Great Western. It is clear little effort has gone in to creating an attractive first class environment, they've just put different seats in to an otherwise identical carriage. The HST has a real 'wow factor' on its first class, something that really made people feel special when they travelled, or at least that was the impression I got whenever I used it, something that just hasn't been replicated on the new trains.
I am told that they are looking at improving the first class offering, including better meals, and a Wednesday evening wine night, which is all very good, but the setting, in my opinion lets it down and I think could be massively improved.

 

[GrimShady]

The 385 version is even worse! Its sun blocking abilities are almost zero!