GWR/LNER IET first class: is it a downgrade?

[leo knight]

I would like any other opinions on IET first class as I believe it is downgraded from IC125/225 sets with having less comfort ie seating and blinds etc. Blinds are not a good idea as your fellow passenger may want to deny you a view from a window if he or she would like it shut and the seats are not so comfortable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Talking of blinds, some non-UK stock has two separate blinds on each window which avoids this problem. Not sure why that's too hard for us.

 

[Rail Blues]

I would like any other opinions on IET first class as I believe it is downgraded from IC125/225 sets with having less comfort ie seating and blinds etc. Blinds are not a good idea as your fellow passenger may want to deny you a view from a window if he or she would like it shut and the seats are not so comfortable.

I'm sure the travelling public will negotiate the thorny blind issue amongst themselves, given that we share homes and offices equipped with blinds and curtains without an eruption of violence. A blind fury if you will.

 

[swt_passenger]

I would like any other opinions on IET first class as I believe it is downgraded from IC125/225 sets with having less comfort ie seating and blinds etc. Blinds are not a good idea as your fellow passenger may want to deny you a view from a window if he or she would like it shut and the seats are not so comfortable.

Welcome to the forum,
... but every possible criticism about Class 800 first class will already be found in the existing thread here, that’s been going for about 4 years now:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-800.100841/

 

[Rail Blues]

Welcome to the forum,
... but every possible criticism about Class 800 first class will already be found in the existing thread here, that’s been going for about 4 years now:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-800.100841/

Have we had blind related gripes yet? We've had seat wibble, slope wibble, diesel wibble, reservations wibble, buffet wibble, paint wibble, but fair play I think blinds are a new complaint.

 

[swt_passenger]

Have we had blind related gripes yet? We've had seat wibble, slope wibble, diesel wibble, reservations wibble, buffet wibble, paint wibble, but fair play I think blinds are a new complaint.

45 posts include the word “blinds”. I didn’t read them all...

 

[Rail Blues]

45 posts include the word “blinds”. I didn’t read them all...

Wowsers

 

[Ash Bridge]

Talking of blinds, some non-UK stock has two separate blinds on each window which avoids this problem. Not sure why that's too hard for us.

I'm rather sure it has also featured on UK loco hauled stock in the past if my memory is serving me correct. They could have been fitted to some of the earlier variants of the mk2s, don't know if anyone else can recall?

 

[InterCity:125]

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/first-class-standards-worsening-on-new-trains.168083/

 

[jimm]

I'm rather sure it has also featured on UK loco hauled stock in the past if my memory is serving me correct. They could have been fitted to some of the earlier variants of the mk2s, don't know if anyone else can recall?

Mk1 second class (initially third class) coaches had large single-piece window blinds, but first class got curtains.

The Blue Pullman units had Venetian blinds between the double-glazed panes of window glass. One big one in second class, with individual blinds for each window seat in first class

https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/blue-pullman/interior-01

I doubt the person who specified Venetian blinds thought they were downgrading the passenger experience.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/first-class-standards-worstening-on-new-trains.168083/

What about standards of spelling?

 

[samuelmorris]

I think the blinds criticism is fair game, not for the concept of having blinds but how poorly made they are on the 800s. The one occasion I've ridden, not much of a sample size I know, was on a unit new enough not to expect interior quality issues (they all still are, really) but in service long enough for 'out of the box defects' to have been rectified. The window blinds were rattling on both sides of the row I was sitting in. Giving the one my side an unconvincing thump was enough to stop it rattling although it was already fully up, but the one the other side persisted. If that's what first class passengers have to look forward to for the next 30 years I think they've right to complain.

The performance ranting will be far less prevalent on LNER because it'll only really affect Lincoln, Hull and Aberdeen/Inverness services, the bulk of services will be on AC where gains should be seen across the board. That will leave people more focused on the comparative quality of the interiors. Though I suppose there will be some unhappy about the noise of the traction motors at lower speeds which to be fair is probably louder on 800s than any other modern EMU including metro units. Fortunately above 80mph or so it's inaudible.

 

[47271]

Yes, GWR IET First Class isn't worth bothering with. Combined with GWR's ridiculous First Class pricing which means that it's near empty most of the time anyway and, to my mind, the huge improvement in Standard over their dire HST interiors then I'm looking at the whole thing as an excellent way of saving my company money whenever I venture down that way. Thank you DfT.

More seriously, LNER First is a different matter, with good loadings at present, keener pricing, and a passenger expectation of quality over long distances. It'll be interesting to see how First Class is greeted on their IETs. I'll be at the head of the queue to downgrade if I see little value in the extra cost.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Talking of blinds, some non-UK stock has two separate blinds on each window which avoids this problem. Not sure why that's too hard for us.

It's probably for stylistic reasons, two seperate blinds in one window would look messy, and the smaller mechanism would make them flimsy too.

 

[CMRail]

Let me do a comparison for HSTs vs IETs then a Voyager vs IET.

HST to IET upgrades:

• Electric Operation
• Faster acceleration
• Clearer reservations
• Passenger Information System
• Electric Doors (dwell times)
• Blinds (why is everyone so fussy about them, it’s not like it’s an additional charge)
• Kitchen for possible improved catering.
• More legroom

HST to IET downgrades:

• PerThe seat type
• Buffet (good and bad for some, in my opinion a no answer debate)
• Slower to get to 125 on diesel though it is possible
• They do not come in halves
• First Class is a massive downgrade, even if leather is banned in new trains it still could be better.
• Many teething problems at the moment, we will have to see how it pans in the long term

I do not really have an issue with the class 800, though I understand why people would not like them. People who say they done like them with no reason or a fake news reason quite frankly I do not care about their opinion.

Voyager to IET upgrades:

• Seats are slightly better
• Smother journey
• More leg room
• Better PIS and clearer reservations, less likely to ask someone to move.
• Toilets do not stink
• More tables
• Free WiFi
• A plug socket per seat rather than every two seats
• Faster dwell times due to Guard taking control rather than guard to driver signaling on the buzzer.

 

[InterCity:125]

huge improvement in Standard over their dire HST interiors

I quite like the HSTs seats.

 

[corsaVXR]

• First Class is a massive downgrade, even if leather is banned in new trains it still could be better.

I have no idea why leather is allowed on airliners and trains in Europe, but not here. Sounds like bull**** to say its banned...

 

[InterCity:125]

I have no idea why leather is allowed on airliners and trains in Europe, but not here. Sounds like bull**** to say its banned

Most everything The Dft do is like that.

 

[NoOnesFool]

I have no idea why leather is allowed on airliners and trains in Europe, but not here. Sounds like bull**** to say its banned...

Is it to do with the vegan community preferring not to sit on leather?

 

[InterCity:125]

Is it to do with the vegan community preferring not to sit on leather?

The updated 166s now have leather...

 

[Dave1987]

From what I hear the poor interior is the least of the problems facing these trains in the future. The DFT ideology with the design is going to bite them big time in the years to come

 

[NoOnesFool]

Could you elaborate on as to why you predict this?

From what I hear the poor interior is the least of the problems facing these trains in the future. The DFT ideology with the design is going to bite them big time in the years to come

 

[Dave1987]

Could you elaborate on as to why you predict this?

For all the PR and shouting that the bi-mode is the saviour and the theory that we don’t need anymore electrification from the DFT and the glorious bi-mode is the cure for everything they have some serious limitations. Because the packaging underneath where the Diesel engines are is pretty darn tight the cooling systems simply can’t get the airflow required to the engines when the weather is very hot. Add the fact that the radiators are getting clogged with pollen etc you have repeated instances where the engines will shut down due to overheating. But with the trains they replaced you have plenty of room for significantly more cooling. Ow well they are here for the next 27 yrs now so people are going to have to put up with the unreliability in hot weather because of the DFT’s spec

Much like Grayling’s insistence that the digital railway will solve everything.... which it won’t.

 

[404250]

The difference between standard and 1st has definately reduced in the new trains. It's the same in the new Eurostar - 1st class is too similar to standard, just a bit more space.

 

[NoOnesFool]

For all the PR and shouting that the bi-mode is the saviour and the theory that we don’t need anymore electrification from the DFT and the glorious bi-mode is the cure for everything they have some serious limitations. Because the packaging underneath where the Diesel engines are is pretty darn tight the cooling systems simply can’t get the airflow required to the engines when the weather is very hot. Add the fact that the radiators are getting clogged with pollen etc you have repeated instances where the engines will shut down due to overheating. But with the trains they replaced you have plenty of room for significantly more cooling. Ow well they are here for the next 27 yrs now so people are going to have to put up with the unreliability in hot weather because of the DFT’s spec

Much like Grayling’s insistence that the digital railway will solve everything.... which it won’t.

Thank you for the detailed reply.

 

[Pete_uk]

Have we had blind related gripes yet? We've had seat wibble, slope wibble, diesel wibble, reservations wibble, buffet wibble, paint wibble, but fair play I think blinds are a new complaint.

Plus my 'What's that whiny noise that comes in at around 30mph' issue...

 

[yorksrob]

Have we had blind related gripes yet? We've had seat wibble, slope wibble, diesel wibble, reservations wibble, buffet wibble, paint wibble, but fair play I think blinds are a new complaint.

Why wibble ? If the fare-paying public view hold those opinions, then those opinions are valid. It is, afterall, the fare-paying public for whom train services are run.

Plus, what was wrong with curtains anyway ? They are proven technology.

 

[Rail Blues]

Why wibble ? If the fare-paying public view hold those opinions, then those opinions are valid. It is, afterall, the fare-paying public for whom train services are run.

Plus, what was wrong with curtains anyway ? They are proven technology.

Because it isn't the fate paying public at large, but a cadre of posters here who set their faces against the 80xs from the moment they were announced and trotted out a litany of gripes, each more petty than the last.

 

[yorksrob]

Because it isn't the fate paying public at large, but a cadre of posters here who set their faces against the 80xs from the moment they were announced and trotted out a litany of gripes, each more petty than the last.

Well, the original poster is a new member, so hasn't been trotting out anything on this forum.

I suspect that for some people, criticism is only valid if its about older rolling stock.

 

[Rail Blues]

Well, the original poster is a new member, so hasn't been trotting out anything on this forum.

I suspect that for some people, criticism is only valid if its about older rolling stock.

Nope.

I would strongly suspect that if you are picking faults and doom mongering before the first example of the stock has been constructed, let alone entered squadron service then you have set your face against them from the start.

Reading the main 800 thread is illustrative, wibble about how you'd need a rope and tackle to get up and down the sloping floors between the carriages and buffet trollies wouldn't be able to make it through, how the diesel engines would be unbearably loud etc. each of these has been debunked and the complaints from this hardcore of naysayers gets ever more petty. They are not representative of the travelling public, as they started on this game before the 80xs left the drawing board.

HSTs have been around for 40 odd years, we've all travelled on them, we can make a judgement based on repeated long term experience of travelling on them. We can see their reliability records. We might not come to the same conclusion, but it is at least based on something that exists and we have extensive real world experience of, not blind prejudice.

 

[yorksrob]

Nope.

I would strongly suspect that if you are picking faults and doom mongering before the first example of the stock has been constructed, let alone entered squadron service then you have set your face against them from the start.

Reading the main 800 thread is illustrative, wibble about how you'd need a rope and tackle to get up and down the sloping floors between the carriages and buffet trollies wouldn't be able to make it through, how the diesel engines would be unbearably loud etc. each of these has been debunked and the complaints from this hardcore of naysayers gets ever more petty. They are not representative of the travelling public, as they started on this game before the 80xs left the drawing board.

HSTs have been around for 40 odd years, we've all travelled on them, we can make a judgement based on repeated long term experience of travelling on them. We can see their reliability records. We might not come to the same conclusion, but it is at least based on something that exists and we have extensive real world experience of, not blind prejudice.

Well, the OP seems to have experience of them, and yet you are dismissing his views as wibble.

For myself, I am keeping an open mind on issues of comfort for the new trains until I try them. The exception is the lack of a buffet car on the Great Western sets, which I think is definitely a bad thing. I say this as a regular traveller by train to the West Country who has found the buffet car a very useful facility over the years.