Arriva Rail North DOO

[Bletchleyite]

I do know for a fact that the introduction of barriers at a number of what were fare evasion hotspots has had quite a significant impact.

Barriers also have an impact on personal safety because they reduce the number of non-payers getting on trains and often non-payers are those who also engage in antisocial behaviour. This is also amply demonstrated by the typically better condition of station toilets found inside barriers than those (where there is no fee) outside.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Guards are not allowed to unit hop

For what it's worth not every TOC has this rule. Northern could bin it off if they wished. Many TOCs, including the vast majority of those with existing DOO schemes, consider a totally unstaffed unit perfectly acceptable.

 

[pt_mad]

So swapping the guard for a BTP officer would do the trick in that case. A point already made by some on here.

Good luck with swapping a team of late turn guards with a team of BTP just in case. There are 2 officers per shift at my local BTP office to cover 8 stations over 5 routes. Any critical incident usually leads to local police being sent by the BTP with them following half an hour later local to me.

 

[Moonshot]

Good luck with swapping a team of late turn guards with a team of BTP just in case. There are 2 officers per shift at my local BTP office to cover 8 stations over 5 routes. Any critical incident usually leads to local police being sent by the BTP with them following half an hour later local to me.

Which is then a funding issue. So raise the price of tickets by 30% and employ 100s more BTP.

 

[pt_mad]

Barriers also have an impact on personal safety because they reduce the number of non-payers getting on trains and often non-payers are those who also engage in antisocial behaviour. This is also amply demonstrated by the typically better condition of station toilets found inside barriers than those (where there is no fee) outside.

Is it proposed Northern will barrier all stations first till last on every route that is proposed DOO? During the day alone for just some stations won't be as good as a guard presence on every train day or night imo.

 

[Moonshot]

For what it's worth not every TOC has this rule. Northern could bin it off if they wished. Many TOCs, including the vast majority of those with existing DOO schemes, consider a totally unstaffed unit perfectly acceptable.

I was under the impression that it was the RMT who had banned this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was under the impression that it was the RMT who had banned this?

I don't know who has, but it is a fact that it is not a rule on every TOC.

 

[pt_mad]

Which is then a funding issue. So raise the price of tickets by 30% and employ 100s more BTP.

Or raise tickets 3.4 percent and keep a guard on every train instead. Oh and the industrial action would be over.

 

[Moonshot]

Is it proposed Northern will barrier all stations first till last on every route that is proposed DOO? During the day alone for just some stations won't be as good as a guard presence on every train day or night imo.

No it wont, and this is where there is a lot of misinformation being peddled about. As far as I m concerned, most Northern services are still going to have the guard as it is today simply because there is a lack of staff out in the sticks etc.

 

[nidave]

Is it proposed Northern will barrier all stations first till last on every route that is proposed DOO? During the day alone for just some stations won't be as good as a guard presence on every train day or night imo.

Genuine question.. Will a guard get involved (try to stop) with an argument or fight between people on the train. I am assuming they will not put themselves into any harms way or potential harm.

 

[pt_mad]

If the public were surveyed as to whether they wish to travel in the future with a guard on every train, or with just a driver or a driver and a customer host on SOME trains I feel there's a good chance the public would prefer all trains well staffed.

 

[Moonshot]

Or raise tickets 3.4 percent and keep a guard on every train instead. Oh and the industrial action would be over.

But tickets rise every year anyway. The industrial action would be over if there is either a second ballot, or ASLEF negotiate a decent deal for drivers to run services on their own.

 

[Moonshot]

If the public were surveyed as to whether they wish to travel in the future with a guard on every train, or with just a driver or a driver and a customer host on SOME trains I feel there's a good chance the public would prefer all trains well staffed.

I can safely tell you that Passenger Focus did the research some time ago, and came up with that exact answer. So from a passengers point of view, the actual job title of that person is totally irrelevant.

 

[pt_mad]

But tickets rise every year anyway. The industrial action would be over if there is either a second ballot, or ASLEF negotiate a decent deal for drivers to run services on their own.

It may be a highly complex negotiation with ASLEF given they seem to be generally opposed to any further DCO regardless of their agreement eventually on Southern.

As someone else pointed out further back, this one might be a little more complicated and disruptive than was on Southern, in that if many routes are remaining guard operated, the strike could continue for yonks on those routes even if DOO is attempted to be forced on others.

 

[pt_mad]

I can safely tell you that Passenger Focus did the research some time ago, and came up with that exact answer. So from a passengers point of view, the actual job title of that person is totally irrelevant.

So they said they want ALL trains well staffed? Well that indicates the public want the second member guaranteed then surely? Which from what I can gather is miles up the road from where Northern are?

 

[Moonshot]

It may be a highly complex negotiation with ASLEF given they seem to be generally opposed to any further DCO regardless of their agreement eventually on Southern.

As someone else pointed out further back, this one might be a little more complicated and disruptive than was on Southern, in that if many routes are remaining guard operated, the strike could continue for yonks in those routes even if DOO is attempted to be forced on others.

Not so sure myself, Northern drivers are on a roll at the moment with negotiated pay awards and bonuses etc. Even with that caveat however, all the current guards ( and the new ones coming in ) are guarenteed same pay rates until 2025. Nobody is losing out here.

 

[pt_mad]

Not so sure myself, Northern drivers are on a roll at the moment with negotiated pay awards and bonuses etc. Even with that caveat however, all the current guards ( and the new ones coming in ) are guarenteed same pay rates until 2025. Nobody is losing out here.

I suppose it's a question of pay and the agreement Vs the cost of taking on the responsibility and potentially the running down of colleague numbers (guards) over time. ASLEF can't be too keen otherwise it opens up a presedence that they will come to a quick agreement over DOO potentially anywhere without much trouble, and this is dangerous ground for staffing numbers across the railway should it be too easy.

 

[Moonshot]

So they said they want ALL trains well staffed? Well that indicates the public want the second member guaranteed then surely? Which from what I can gather is miles up the road from where Northern are?

Its pretty much what is stated in the finer detail of the franchise anyway. Nobody actually knows what the position Northern are in, there have been no minutes relased from meetings etc. Its all hearsay, though I would say the RMT has given away its negotiating position. Which isnt very professional.

 

[pt_mad]

Its pretty much what is stated in the finer detail of the franchise anyway. Nobody actually knows what the position Northern are in, there have been no minutes relased from meetings etc. Its all hearsay, though I would say the RMT has given away its negotiating position. Which isnt very professional.

Wasn't there a document linked to earlier in the thread from the franchise agreement, which had two numbers blocked out? Said to the effect of the franchise agrees that by xxxx that xx percent of services will run in driver controlled operation where the second member of staff will not be essential for the train to run? The wording was not exact, but to that effect.

That says potentially they aren't ready to guarantee the second member of staff?

 

[Moonshot]

I suppose it's a question of pay and the agreement Vs the cost of taking on the responsibility and potentially the running down of colleague numbers (guards) over time. ASLEF can't be too keen otherwise it opens up a presedence that they will come to a quick agreement over DOO potentially anywhere without much trouble, and this is dangerous ground for staffing numbers across the railway should it be too easy.

They already have elsewhere. I note that the ASLEF website doesnt actually state anywhere they are actually opposed to DOO. Im not sure its policy myself. Of course as with all unions, they act in the members best interest, you cannot argue that 2018 really is a golden time to be a driver judging by all the applications all the TOCs get for jobs.

 

[Moonshot]

Wasn't there a document linked to earlier in the thread from the franchise agreement, which had two numbers blocked out? Said to the effect of the franchise agrees that by xxxx that xx percent of services will run in driver controlled operation where the second member of staff will not be essential for the train to run? The wording was not exact, but to that effect.

That says potentially they aren't ready to guarantee the second member of staff?

That really depends on what services - I suspect the Northern Connect services will be the ones to go DOO. This is where every needs some deeper detail to make a sound judgement. There will always be some type of redaction on public documents.

 

[pt_mad]

They already have elsewhere. I note that the ASLEF website doesnt actually state anywhere they are actually opposed to DOO. Im not sure its policy myself. Of course as with all unions, they act in the members best interest, you cannot argue that 2018 really is a golden time to be a driver judging by all the applications all the TOCs get for jobs.

It's one of those things where they could offer drivers two thirds of a guard's yearly wage as their total payrise over the next 5 years. But they have to agree to taking on all the guards previous operational duties. So potentially it's cheap for the TOC as far as what they operationally need to run the train. It's the cost of the intermediate action which is really costing rather than any potential deal with ASLEF imo.

 

[Robertj21a]

If the public were surveyed as to whether they wish to travel in the future with a guard on every train, or with just a driver or a driver and a customer host on SOME trains I feel there's a good chance the public would prefer all trains well staffed.

I doubt that many of the travelling public know very much of what a guard really does. The public may well want a 2nd person to be visible on the train but that doesn't have to be a safety critical guard, an OBS would be adequate in their eyes.

 

[ComUtoR]

I doubt that many of the travelling public know very much of what a guard really does. The public may well want a 2nd person to be visible on the train but that doesn't have to be a safety critical guard, an OBS would be adequate in their eyes.

Many of the traveling public still believe there is a Guard onboard our DOO services :/

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the public were surveyed as to whether they wish to travel in the future with a guard on every train, or with just a driver or a driver and a customer host on SOME trains I feel there's a good chance the public would prefer all trains well staffed.

If they were surveyed but given an inflationary fare increase in the first case but a higher fare increase in the second case, I think the outcome may differ.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many of the traveling public still believe there is a Guard onboard our DOO services :/

Many of the travelling public believe south WCML LNR services are DOO because the guards often hide in the cab.

 

[Moonshot]

Breaking news, RMT have agreed to attend talks under ACAS, just been on local news

 

[Robertj21a]

Breaking news, RMT have agreed to attend talks under ACAS, just been on local news

I thought the RMT was usually happy to attend any talks ?

Mick Cash then goes on to state that the RMT wants to have a safety critical guard on every train...............so we're back to square one each time. It will be interesting to see how this is any different.

 

[scrapy]

i was on a metrolink tram the other saturday travelling from Oldham to Rochdale on what was the old heavy rail line operated by Northern. Of course its DOO nowadays from a passengers point of view, but I couldnt help notice the numbers of BTP hopping on and off at regular intervals. This also happens on the regular rail services locally.

There is a high profile campaign by GMP particularly on this Metrolink line due to the number of crimes and incidents between Monsall and Shaw. It has however been highlighted by passengers that there has been a huge rise in anti social behaviour on this route since it was a heavy rail line. This has been a gradual increase despite introduction of full CCTV coverage and help points as people have been able to get away with things, incidents have become more serious. The lack of a second person on board may have contributed to this as there hasn't been a similar increase in anti social behaviour on the heavy rail network.

 

[Wychwood93]

There is a high profile campaign by GMP particularly on this Metrolink line due to the number of crimes and incidents between Monsall and Shaw. It has however been highlighted by passengers that there has been a huge rise in anti social behaviour on this route since it was a heavy rail line. This has been a gradual increase despite introduction of full CCTV coverage and help points as people have been able to get away with things, incidents have become more serious. The lack of a second person on board may have contributed to this as there hasn't been a similar increase in anti social behaviour on the heavy rail network.

Please advise how a 'second person' would have helped? Anyone can call BTP/Police - if the behaviour was that bad, then it would depend on the nature of the 'second person' as to whether they ran for the hills or became involved. The latter not the best idea, but it depends on who you are - some people can do it and stop it, others may try and fail. Worth a go? Not always.