Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

[Cardiff123]

Welsh Labour are running a campaign day today about how great the new franchise will be that they've given us. We don't learn anything new apart from this picture of a Stadler Flirt with 'First Class' on the outside, which confirms our suspicions when pictures of the Flirts with what appeared to be FC interiors were released.



Do TfW seriously think people will want to pay more to travel first class, in what will be just a compartment with tables and more leg room, on short journeys to Caerphilly, Rhymney, Barry, Ebbw Vale or Maesteg? Having a first class compartment also suggests the Flirts will have a trolley service providing free refreshments in FC. The Flirts will not be operating on long distance routes, they will serve commuter routes.
How long until the complaints flood in of overcrowding in standard but empty first compartments?

It seems plug sockets are coming to 150s as well:

"Power supplies will be available at over 95 per cent of seats across all rolling stock types by 2020, with 100 per cent roll out completed by 2022."

https://www.welshlabour.wales/story/2018/08/30/a-new-rail-deal-for-wales-made-in-wales-for-wales/

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not as things stand; newer isn't always better and the old trains being replaced include not just the awful Pacers and 150s but also the 158s and 175s which, along with the mark 3s, are the best trains in ATW's current fleet. Both 158s and 175s are higher-quality trains than the visualisations suggest the new CAF units will be. The new trains look like they will have huge areas for standing passengers (due to wide doors), ironing board seats, no carpets and no tables. That all needs to change if they are to be a suitable replacement for 158s and 175s. Given that there are currently no timetable improvements planned for the lines west of Swansea I also think that the new franchise should retain either the 158s or the 175s to permit service enhancements.

I would agree that they need to rethink on the seats (and I think everyone knows my preference together which which type I really *wouldn't* want to see) and on the Spartan interior colour schemes. However, I can't agree that doors at thirds are the wrong choice. Most Welsh services are really regional expresses, and this door layout is the most sensible for such services as it enables and speeds boarding and alighting and indeed provides standing room for very short trips. TBH, if I was picking from the existing UK fleet, I'd suggest Class 170s to be very suitable, and they have served very well on similar regional express routes in Scotland. All the new stock is is an updated Class 170, really.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having a first class compartment also suggests the Flirts will have a trolley service providing free refreshments in FC

Why? Plenty of First Class in the UK does not offer that.

 

[Cardiff123]

Why? Plenty of First Class in the UK does not offer that.

What's the point then? It'll just be a fresh air carrying compartment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's the point then? It'll just be a fresh air carrying compartment.

If the price is right, improved seating comfort. That's all I go First Class for.

 

[berneyarms]

All information about rolling stock changes and what will be used where can be found by reading back through this thread and here: http://tfw.gov.wales/journey-begins

The poster is asking if anyone knew what rolling stock the losing bidder planned to use!!

 

[Cardiff123]

The poster is asking if anyone knew what rolling stock the losing bidder planned to use!!

That information isn't in the public domain and I doubt whether we will ever know.

 

[kieron]

Welsh Labour are running a campaign day today about how great the new franchise will be that they've given us. We don't learn anything new apart from this picture of a Stadler Flirt with 'First Class' on the outside, which confirms our suspicions when pictures of the Flirts with what appeared to be FC interiors were released.

When I read the page a few minutes ago, it said that there was going to be first class on trains between Swansea and Manchester. To learn anything else, I'd need a bit more than a drawing of a train.

The Labour Party isn't a party to the agreement, so I wouldn't expect to see much new about it from them.

 

[Chris192]

Do TfW seriously think people will want to pay more to travel first class, in what will be just a compartment with tables and more leg room, on short journeys to Caerphilly, Rhymney, Barry, Ebbw Vale or Maesteg? Having a first class compartment also suggests the Flirts will have a trolley service providing free refreshments in FC. The Flirts will not be operating on long distance routes, they will serve commuter routes.
How long until the complaints flood in of overcrowding in standard but empty first compartments?

That video of the FLIRT released a short while ago had “Metro” branding above the window on both sides of the train. The one in that image has a first class sign in its place, so it seems likely that the Metro tri-modes are going to be all standard class, and that diesel trains with a first class section are destined for the Cheltenham route maybe? I’m not sure what other services they’d operate, but running first class between Maesteg and Cheltenham seems like a possibility. No idea about the Ebbw vale routes though, and I imagine routes like Newport-Ebbw Vale would be running empty.

 

[DanNCL]

I think what's much more likely here is that this is just a generic artists impression of what the new Wales & Boders trains will look like, and not any indication that the Wales & Borders FLIRTs may be getting first class.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think what's much more likely here is that this is just a generic artists impression of what the new Wales & Boderes trains will look like, and not any indication that the Wales & Borders FLIRTs may be getting first class.

I'd expect this is most probably the case. After all, it turned out that the GA FLIRT that actually did have First Class markings actually on it only had them as a test of the actual markings and did not in fact contain a First Class section.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think what's much more likely here is that this is just a generic artists impression of what the new Wales & Boderes trains will look like, and not any indication that the Wales & Borders FLIRTs may be getting first class.

I'd expect this is most probably the case. After all, it turned out that the GA FLIRT that actually did have First Class markings actually on it only had them as a test of the actual markings and did not in fact contain a First Class section.

Every time there's an artist's impression of new stock the forum goes into overdrive about little details like this. We all like to speculate but has there ever been an official sketch that's been 100% accurate?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Welsh Labour are running a campaign day today about how great the new franchise will be that they've given us. We don't learn anything new apart from this picture of a Stadler Flirt with 'First Class' on the outside, which confirms our suspicions when pictures of the Flirts with what appeared to be FC interiors were released.

View attachment 52063

Do TfW seriously think people will want to pay more to travel first class, in what will be just a compartment with tables and more leg room, on short journeys to Caerphilly, Rhymney, Barry, Ebbw Vale or Maesteg? Having a first class compartment also suggests the Flirts will have a trolley service providing free refreshments in FC. The Flirts will not be operating on long distance routes, they will serve commuter routes.
How long until the complaints flood in of overcrowding in standard but empty first compartments?

It seems plug sockets are coming to 150s as well:

https://www.welshlabour.wales/story/2018/08/30/a-new-rail-deal-for-wales-made-in-wales-for-wales/

I wouldn't expect 1 Cathedral Road to be 100% accurate, having already had folk coming in the office asking what improvements on day one to expect this is not going to help ratcheting up expectation and then not delivering (for a number of years).

When this process started we were still expecting wires to Swansea and didn't know that there were lots of Brucy bonus points for orderring from CAF, a bi mode Flirt doing Manchester to Swansea with First Class could have been an early runner till the goalpost moved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When this process started we were still expecting wires to Swansea and didn't know that there were lots of Brucy bonus points for orderring from CAF, a bi mode Flirt doing Manchester to Swansea with First Class could have been an early runner till the goalpost moved.

True. I do wish it had been a 100% Stadler fleet, personally, same with GA. But then I am a self confessed fan

 

[Rhydgaled]

I can't agree that doors at thirds are the wrong choice. Most Welsh services are really regional expresses, and this door layout is the most sensible for such services as it enables and speeds boarding and alighting and indeed provides standing room for very short trips.

You are correct that wide doors at thirds provide more standing room, and that door layout almost certainly cuts dwell times too. I also agree that most of the services concerned (that the new W&B CAF units are expected to work) are regional express (which also seems to be known as 'inter-urban'). Where we seem to disagree is the standard that should be provided on regional express services. My opinion is that nobody should be expected to stand for any long journey; passengers standing for 5-10 minutes on a peak-time stopper into Cardiff is one thing but a near-20-minute non-stop run from Cardiff to Bridgend is quite another. Thus the extra space for standing passengers should simply not be necessary on regional express services (and the same applies to regional services like the Heart Of Wales Line and Swansea - Pembroke Dock). That standing space is space that (on a long-distance service) could, and should, instead be used to enhance legroom, help align seats with windows, include more table bays or allow an extra luggage rack etc. As for the dwell times, the clue is in the name regional EXPRESS. This implies that, for at least part of the journey (regional expresses are often a mixed bag which include a 'regional' bit with frequent stops (eg. Pwllheli to Machynlleth)), the train will be limited stop - with fairly long runs between stations. An extra 30-45secs at each station on a train making 20 stops is a total of 10-15 minutes to the overall journey time, but with only 10 stops it could be as low as five minutes. On a long journey, I'd rather sit in comfort for 2hrs 35mins admiring the view than sit with my knees rammed hard against the seat in front staring at a window pillar for 2hrs 30mins. TPE and ScotRail have (almost) the right idea; replacing 185s and 170s with end-door stock (the one thing I would change for W&B is instead of the medium-length fixed formations TPE and ScotRail are going for I think a mix of 2-car and 3-car units with unit-end-gangways is the right solution).

TBH, if I was picking from the existing UK fleet, I'd suggest Class 170s to be very suitable, and they have served very well on similar regional express routes in Scotland. All the new stock is is an updated Class 170, really.

Whereas I would argue that the class 170 is a poorly designed train that is not really ideally suitable for anything. They have doors at thirds to minimise dwell times and make room for standees, good for trains that make frequent stops (like Swanline/Maesteg-Cardiff-Cheltenham, which is where I'd like to see the new W&B franchise deploy its 170s) but (based solely on anecdotal evidence that I have read on the forums) have poor acceleration which isn't so great for stoppers.

True. I do wish it had been a 100% Stadler fleet, personally, same with GA. But then I am a self confessed fan

The problem with the bi-mode FLIRTs for GA and tri-modes for the Cardiff Metro is that there are no unit end gangways.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That standing space is space that (on a long-distance service) could, and should, instead be used to enhance legroom, help align seats with windows, include more table bays

I'm not clear that that is actually the case. Consider TPE - the Mk5 stock will be end-doored but has poor window alignment, while the Class 185 has doors at thirds (well, quarters) and has most seats aligned with the windows. Similarly the lower density Class 170 interiors like ScotRail's have most seats aligned, with a window width basically being a bay.

Whereas I would argue that the class 170 is a poorly designed train that is not really ideally suitable for anything. They have doors at thirds to minimise dwell times and make room for standees, good for trains that make frequent stops (like Swanline/Maesteg-Cardiff-Cheltenham, which is where I'd like to see the new W&B franchise deploy its 170s) but (based solely on anecdotal evidence that I have read on the forums) have poor acceleration which isn't so great for stoppers.

That 170s are a bit underpowered doesn't make the bodyshell and passenger accommodation design poor, though. You could just as well build an end doored unit which was underpowered, such as the Class 153. And you could build a unit with a near identical bodyshell - the Class 172 - which does have acceptable acceleration.

It may well be worth Wales considering replacing the transmissions on the 170s with a mechanical transmission as the 196s will have and 172s do have. The 172 doesn't have much more power - 360 vs 315kW per coach - it just doesn't waste a load of it churning and heating up a load of hydraulic fluid at low speeds. The Voith hydraulic transmission was right for its time (a time when fuel consumption and emissions barely registered and lines were less crowded, and mechanical transmissions were rough and unreliable) but it really is rather out of date now.

IOW, the door positions don't dictate passenger comfort nor performance.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Just on the door argument having seen a mobility scooter get on a 158 and then seen it try and get into the passenger saloon........but that's an argument for having more stock as well.

 

[Rhydgaled]

That 170s are a bit underpowered doesn't make the bodyshell and passenger accommodation design poor, though.

Correct; it doesn't. It is the combination of doors at thirds (good for frequent stops) with poor acceleration (not good for frequent stops) that makes 170s a poor design. As you rightly point out, it is possible to marry a class 170 bodyshell (or something very similar) with different 'gubbins' (engine, gearbox etc.) under the floor. Assuming the class 172s do have good acceleration, as you say, then I think the class 172/2 and 172/3 units are a very sensible design ideally suited to suburban work like Cardiff-Cheltenham (172/0 and 172/1 are not so great because they lack unit-end gangways).

IOW, the door positions don't dictate passenger comfort nor performance.

I wasn't intending to suggest that the 170s have poor performance because of the door layout. Of course the door positions don't dictate performance. I do, however, maintain that a suburban door layout must restrict the potential to maximise passenger comfort.

 

[squizzler]

Impressive variety of terms for loo in this post. Well played!

Thanks, I am flushed with pride!

On a serious note, those who read Ian Walmsley's columns in Modern Railways will be familiar with his view that all too often the permanent way engineers offload infrastructure shortcomings onto the rolling stock engineers for them to deal with. The result - more complex, heavier, maintainance intensive train stock. The stellar example of this is the bi-mode units where perceived lack of competence in managing the electrification has required traction engineers to come up with bi-mode trains (he has several more examples).

I don't think the toilet issue is something he has cited but it might be perceived as falling into the category of rolling stock addressing problem that would be better addressed in the fixed infrastructure. Note also Ian was one of the main industry press proponents of light rail for the Valleys system, and light rail conversion pretty much takes the idea of investing in infrastructure specifically to facilitate light, simple, cheap vehicles to the logical conclusion. Putting the toilets landslide is not done on a whim, it is an integral part of the guiding philosophy that makes light rail so successful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wasn't intending to suggest that the 170s have poor performance because of the door layout. Of course the door positions don't dictate performance. I do, however, maintain that a suburban door layout must restrict the potential to maximise passenger comfort.

I fundamentally don't agree with that, though, provided the precise door positioning is done with regard to the bay size. The Class 170 is evidence enough; there are 5 bays between the doors and a few more at the ends. In the nicer layouts, each bay contains either a table or two rows of airline seats, all fully aligned. The Class 185 is similar. The Class 350 would be similar were an extra row not squeezed in in some centre sections.

It used to be a problem in the days of pocket sliding doors, where you couldn't have a window in a door's width from the door itself (and it is still a problem in the end-doored Class 800 which has this old-fashioned door setup). With plug doors there is no such constraint.

 

[Bikeman78]

I fundamentally don't agree with that, though, provided the precise door positioning is done with regard to the bay size. The Class 170 is evidence enough; there are 5 bays between the doors and a few more at the ends. In the nicer layouts, each bay contains either a table or two rows of airline seats, all fully aligned. The Class 185 is similar. The Class 350 would be similar were an extra row not squeezed in in some centre sections.

It used to be a problem in the days of pocket sliding doors, where you couldn't have a window in a door's width from the door itself (and it is still a problem in the end-doored Class 800 which has this old-fashioned door setup). With plug doors there is no such constraint.

Why can't you have windows in the door pockets? Underground trains do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why can't you have windows in the door pockets? Underground trains do.

They tend to get very mucky due to the mechanism. No new Tube trains do, the doors are all externally mounted.

 

[hwl]

Why can't you have windows in the door pockets? Underground trains do.

it also narrows the width of the interior adjacent to the vestibule where you would want it wider.

 

[Bletchleyite]

it also narrows the width of the interior adjacent to the vestibule where you would want it wider.

It's not necessarily that much of an issue if you put a luggage rack there instead of seats, or a side-facing seat for short journeys. But it's easier just to use plug doors as most modern European rolling stock does. They are a proven and reliable technology with more advantages than disadvantages.

 

[hwl]

It's not necessarily that much of an issue if you put a luggage rack there instead of seats, or a side-facing seat for short journeys. But it's easier just to use plug doors as most modern European rolling stock does. They are a proven and reliable technology with more advantages than disadvantages.

Agreed plug doors can also now open far faster than they used to so no real advantages to pocket any more.

 

[uxm]

Class 175s were originally for the north and they transferred from first north western to arriva.

 

[uxm]

Quoting is not working for me

 

[superalbs]

Press the 'Reply' button.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Class 175 were for the North West Express routes (Manchester Airport to Barrow, Blackpool and Windermere) and North Wales when FNW operated those areas. In the end the North West units transferred to North Wales to be replaced by the Class 185s.

 

[Clip]

My opinion is that nobody should be expected to stand for any long journey; passengers standing for 5-10 minutes on a peak-time stopper into Cardiff is one thing but a near-20-minute non-stop run from Cardiff to Bridgend is quite another. .

Im sorry what? Are you really saying that standing for 20 minutes is unacceptable? What planet do you live on and have you ever been outside this planet to see that there are services all over the country where 20 mins can be the norm to stand - what makes wales so different that 20 minutes is unacceptable?