Liverpool to Sutton Coldfield Sun 25th Oct

[shuggie61]

Hello again! This time I'm travelling on family business...
Liverpool to Sutton Coldfield
Sutton Coldfield to Liverpool
Sun 25th October
Early morning start to get there for 12.
Leaving late afternoon at about 5.
Trainline price is £30ish off-peak day return.
Any cheaper?
Ta. Hugh McGuinness.

 

[John @ home]

Liverpool to Sutton Coldfield
Sutton Coldfield to Liverpool
Sun 25th October ...
Trainline price is £30ish off-peak day return.

Don't book via the trainline! Both it and raileasy charge credit/debit card and/or delivery fees. The train companies' own site don't and you can buy all the cheap fares there, sometimes with an extra discount for using the site of the company you're going to travel with.

The Liverpool to Sutton Coldfield £30.60 fare route Crewe is an off-peak return, valid 1 month for the return portion, not an off-peak day return.

Any cheaper?

The few remaining Advance tickets are not helpfully priced.

There is no off-peak day return (CDR) from Liverpool to Sutton Coldfield. A little can be saved by buying a sequence of CDRs:
Liverpool - Crewe CDR £8.80
Crewe - Stafford CDR £9.60
Stafford - Sutton Coldfield CDR £8.50
Total £26.90. Save £3.70.
The requirement that the trains must stop at Crewe and Stafford does not add any difficulty. It would probably be best to book these 3 tickets online for collection at Liverpool Lime St.

John

 

[tony_mac]

There is an off-peak day return from Chester to Sutton Coldfield.

I haven't checked it myself, but National Rail website says that it is permitted via Liverpool. It is certainly permitted via Crewe.
Also I can't check here if break of journey is allowed.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Chester to Sutton Coldfield is £14.80

Break of journey IS PERMITTED on both legs, can't check validity via Liverpool.

Permitted on any service after 0845

 

[clagmonster]

Chester is a routeing point.
Sutton Coldfield is a related station to Birmingham and Lichfield.

Appropriate fares for the fare check rule are
Chester-Sutton Coldfield
CDS £14.70
SDS £22.30

Chester-Lichfield City
SOS £23
No common ticket type in the range allowed to perfom the fare check rule. Does anyone know the procedure for this case?

Chester-Birmingham
CDS £14.70, same price at Sutton Coldfield
SDS £22.30, again same price as Sutton Coldfield
As both Chester-Birmingham tickets are the same price as the Sutton Coldfield tickets Birmingham is an appropriate routeing point.

Chester-Birmingham has routeing permissions BC, BC+CH, BP+LC, BP+LC+CL, CC, CC+CL, WS
BC gives:
Chester-Wrexham-Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton-Smethwick-Birmingham
Chester-Wrexham-Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton-Walsall-Perry Barr-Birmingham

BC+CH gives:
Chester-Crewe-Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton-Smethwick-Birmingham
Chester-Crewe-Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton-Walsall-Perry Barr-Birmingham

BP+LC gives:
Chester-Crewe-Stafford-Rugeley-Walsall-Birmingham
Chester-Crewe-Stoke on Trent-Stafford-Rugeley-Walsall-Birmingham
Chester-Crewe-Stoke on Trent-Rugeley-Walsall-Birmingham
Chester-Crewe-Stafford-Wolverhampton-Smethwick-Birmingham
Chester-Crewe-Stoke on Trent-Stafford-Wolverhampton-Smethwick-Birmingham

BP+LC+CL gives
Chester-Hooton-Liverpool-Hunts Cross group-Runcorn-Crewe
Chester-Hooton-Runcorn-Warrington-Crewe
Chester-Hooton-Runcorn-Crewe
Chester-Runcorn-Crewe
Chester-Runcorn-Warrington-Crewe
then south as above

CC gives
Chester-Crewe-Stoke on Trent-Stafford-Wolverhampton-Walsall-Perry Barr-Birmingham
Chester-Crewe-Stafford-Wolverhampton-Walsall-Perry Barr-Birmingham

CC+CL gives only duplicates.

WS gives only duplcates.

From Birmingham, travel direct to Sutton Coldfield.
I have ignored the Lichfield routeing points, if it is deemed appropriate it will open up more routes.
To answer the question, travel via Liverpool is permitted.

 

[John @ home]

There is an off-peak day return from Chester to Sutton Coldfield.

Well spotted!

The routeing points for Sutton Coldfield are Birmingham Group and Lichfield Trent Valley. Birmingham Group passes the fares check. Lichfield Trent Valley does not. Permitted routes between Chester and Birmingham Group are:
BC, BC+CH, BP+LC, BP+LC+CL, CC, CC+CL or WS.

CC+CL allows Chester - Hooton (on CL), then Hooton - Liverpool - Crewe - Stafford - Birmingham ((on CC). Therefore a £14.80 CDR Chester - Sutton Coldfield is permitted via Liverpool.

The National Fares Manual confirms that break of journey is allowed on both legs:

Origin: CHESTER
Destination: SUTTON COLDFIELD
Route: 00000 - ANY PERMITTED
CDR - OFF-PEAK DAY R ATW
1 Adult @£ 14.80 = £ 14.80
Standard Class Return
Restriction : B4
OUTWARD TRAVEL
By any train except those timed to depart Mondays to Fridays before 0845.
RETURN TRAVEL
By any train.
Break of Journey: Out/Rtn - YES

Quite a saving on £30.60!

It's probably easiest to book online and pick up the ticket from a machine at Lime Street.

John
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Chester-Lichfield City
SOS £23
No common ticket type in the range allowed to perfom the fare check rule. Does anyone know the procedure for this case?

Lichfield Trent Valley, rather than Lichfield City, is the routeing point but the fares are the same. The National Routeing Guide states:

If you are unsure whether a particular routeing point for the origin station is the correct one compare the fare from that routeing point to the destination with the fare for the throughout journey - it is an appropriate routeing point only if that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey from the origin station to the destination station.
Follow the same procedure if you are not certain that a particular routeing point for the destination station is the correct one. Compare the fare from that routeing point to the origin station with the fare for the throughout journey - it is an appropriate routeing point only if that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey from the origin station to the destination station.
All fares comparisons must be made using one of the following single ticket types:
• Standard Open Single (SOS)
• Standard Day Single (SDS)
• Saver Single (SVS)
• Cheap Day Single (CDS)
In exceptional circumstances, due to local fares policies, a direct comparison may not be possible. If this is the case and the origin station or destination station has a lower fare of the type selected than all its routeing points, the Standard Single (Day or Open) fares should be used for comparison purposes.

It seems to me that the sentence
Compare the fare from that routeing point to the origin station with the fare for the throughout journey - it is an appropriate routeing point only if that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey from the origin station to the destination station.
means that a routeing point is appropriate if and only if it passes the fares check. Here there are no appropriate fares to compare so Lichfield TV cannot pass that check.

It is only if none of the potential routeing points pass the check that we move on to the final paragraph In exceptional circumstances ... . Birmingham Group passes the check, so that situation does not arise here.

John

 

[clagmonster]

The routeing guide states:
"All fares comparisons must be made using one of the following single ticket types"
In this case, with the Lichfield tickets it isn't possible to compare using one of the ticket types, so yes I agree it is impossible for Lichfield to pass the fare check test, but it is also impossible for it to fail, or even to sit the test. This is the first time I have ever seen this scenario, and I am sure it is not meant to be this way.

 

[tony_mac]

I've certainly come across this before, and in some cases no fare comparison at all is possible for a journey. The 'In exceptional circumstances...' bit doesn't make sense any more as it only refers you to fares that you have already tried to check.

 

[John @ home]

The routeing guide states:
"All fares comparisons must be made using one of the following single ticket types"
In this case, with the Lichfield tickets it isn't possible to compare using one of the ticket types, so yes I agree it is impossible for Lichfield to pass the fare check test, but it is also impossible for it to fail, or even to sit the test. This is the first time I have ever seen this scenario, and I am sure it is not meant to be this way.

I've certainly come across this before, and in some cases no fare comparison at all is possible for a journey. The 'In exceptional circumstances...' bit doesn't make sense any more as it only refers you to fares that you have already tried to check.

I don't quite agree that The 'In exceptional circumstances...' bit doesn't make sense any more. The logic I use is this:

Compare fares using the single fares for the ticket type the passenger wants. So in this post where the OP wanted to know if a SVR Potters Bar - Church Stretton was valid via Crewe, I used SVS fares.

If any routeing point passes the fares test using the ticket type the passenger wants, stop there. In the Chester - Sutton Coldfield case, Birmingham passed but Lichfield TV did not because there were no appropriate fares to compare. So Birmingham is the only appropriate destination routeing point.

But no routeing point passed the test for Potters Bar - Church Stretton using SVS fares, so I had to go on to the next stage. There I compare SOS fares. This produced an appropriate routeing point in this case. If there had been SDS fares, I would also have looked at those. If there are only SOS fares for one flow, and only SDS fares for the other, then in my opinion the 'In exceptional circumstances...' bit gives you permission to compare SDS with SOS. I think that is its main remaining purpose.

I agree that this logic is not guaranteed to work. The may be no routeing points which pass for any fare type. Or there may be routeing points which pass for SDS but not for SOS, or vice-versa. I don't know what to do in these cases.

John

 

[tony_mac]

Compare fares using the single fares for the ticket type the passenger wants.

That will be the difference; it doesn't specify that in the routeing guide, so I just assumed that you could check any single fare.

After all, if you want a day return, then having to check an off-peak day single, as opposed to an off-peak single just doesn't make any sense either- you don't often have the choice of both.

 

[John @ home]

Compare fares using the single fares for the ticket type the passenger wants.

That will be the difference; it doesn't specify that in the routeing guide, so I just assumed that you could check any single fare.

Checking previous issues, it seems the requirement to use the same ticket type was removed from Section A in July 2009.

Follow the same procedure if you are not certain that a particular routeing point for the destination station is the correct one. Compare the fare from that routeing point to the origin station with the fare for the throughout journey - it is an appropriate routeing point only if that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey from the origin station to the destination station.
All fares comparisons must be made using the same ticket type.
If the customer requires a Single then Single fares should be compared. If the customer requires a Saver then Saver fares should be compared.
In exceptional circumstances, due to local fares policies, a direct comparison may not be possible. If this is the case and the origin station or destination station has a lower fare of the type selected than all its routeing points, the Standard Single (Day or Open) fares should be used for comparison purposes.

Follow the same procedure if you are not certain that a particular routeing point for the destination station is the correct one. Compare the fare from that routeing point to the origin station with the fare for the throughout journey - it is an appropriate routeing point only if that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey from the origin station to the destination station.
All fares comparisons must be made using one of the following single ticket types:
• Standard Open Single (SOS)
• Standard Day Single (SDS)
• Saver Single (SVS)
• Cheap Day Single (CDS)
In exceptional circumstances, due to local fares policies, a direct comparison may not be possible. If this is the case and the origin station or destination station has a lower fare of the type selected than all its routeing points, the Standard Single (Day or Open) fares should be used for comparison purposes.

But the instruction still survives in Section F, the NRG in Detail section, so I think we must assume it still applies.

All fares comparisons must be made using the same ticket type. No other intermediate fares are compared. Even if another intermediate fare (A–F) is higher than the fare for the whole journey, it does not forbid the route.

If we don't use the same ticket type where possible, the process doesn't return unambiguous results.

John

 

[shuggie61]

Thank you all so much! I didn't think my journey would spark so much interest. Happy to save £15! Thanks again. Shuggie.